Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

Do you have the right to privacy when you sign your name on a petition?
In my opinion no. In fact if the signatures on a petition are not made public then the petition is meaningless. Also if you feel so strongly about a subject to sign a petition you should stand by your conviction and deal with what comes.[/QUOTE]

I agree. If the signatures aren't verifiable in even a cursory, common-sense fashion, there's simply no reason for that petition to be considered legitimate. The whole point of public petitions as measures for getting referendums on the ballot is that the signatures be verifiable as individuals who could vote on the measure.

Otherwise you might as well make ballot decisions by counting the number of honks you get in support when holding a sign by the highway.[/QUOTE]
This one isn't so cut-n-dry to me. Think of it from another issue 40 years ago: what could have happened to supporters to repeal racism laws in the KKK-dominated areas? [/quote]

What you're obliquely alluding to was happening without the petitions regardless.

They have themselves a list of people to put a hit out on. Or whatever other issue you want, if it has strong feelings attached to it, there's usually people willing to do really stupid things, and at the least TRY to intimidate people.
Which is why the actual act of voting is private, and why petition requirements to get referendums on the ballot are significantly smaller than even a fraction of the eligible voting populations. The whole point of referendum petitions is to demonstrate that a sufficiently large number of eligible voters is willing to stand up and be counted in support of a measure such that there is a large possibility of support from other eligible voters who did not want to self-identify but would still want to vote on the subject.

Now, if we were living in Soviet Russia, like some idiots (not you, Eriol) apparently believe we're headed towards, then I could see not wanting to be on the list. I think we still have quite a ways to go, on that score, however..
 
Which is why the actual act of voting is private, and why petition requirements to get referendums on the ballot are significantly smaller than even a fraction of the eligible voting populations. The whole point of referendum petitions is to demonstrate that a sufficiently large number of eligible voters is willing to stand up and be counted in support of a measure such that there is a large possibility of support from other eligible voters who did not want to self-identify but would still want to vote on the subject.

Now, if we were living in Soviet Russia, like some idiots (not you, Eriol) apparently believe we're headed towards, then I could see not wanting to be on the list. I think we still have quite a ways to go, on that score, however..
That's fair enough man, but still, I'm divided on it. I really don't know what's more important, verifiable actual voters on a petition, or the safety/anonymity of those on that list. I guess the difference I see between secret ballots when voting in an election (which I support) and petitions is that either way it's not the government causing the intimidation, but "the people" themselves, or at least a few radicals. Whereas your Soviet Russia comment is the government themselves doing the oppression.

So I see value in both sides of the argument, and really don't know which I'd support if asked "pick one NOW!" I like the idea of people standing up publicly for their beliefs and being confident with such, but OTOH I don't want people impacted personally (violence/intimidation) or even professionally (outside of public/political professions of course) for their opinions.
 
Maybe another way to put it would be that while I don't think you can, or should, protect anonymity in referendum petitions, you should ask yourself whether you have a credible belief that either you, or the government, can protect you and yours from potential crazies before you should sign such a thing.

I don't think anyone is obligated to sign such a petition, and thankfully, we have other options besides self-identification to make our voices known.

As has been made only too clear over the decades, sometimes civic change often requires enormous amounts of personal courage to stand up, be seen, and act civilly when you know others may not.
 
Weeeeell, it's actually a bill that seeks to amend an older bill (I think thats how it goes...) that already does this if you choose to fight for a foreign military, so it's kind of an understandable that this would be proposed. It's seems like a pretty grey area right now, I'm going to need to hear some good arguments for and against it before I facepalm it.
 
They're not a military. Calling them a military legitimizes terrorism. I can't think of anything I'd rather not happen.
 
I don't think they want them called "a military". I think they just want people who commit terrorists acts that are citizens to lose their right to citizenship just like those who fight against the US.
 
Weeeeell, it's actually a bill that seeks to amend an older bill (I think thats how it goes...) that already does this if you choose to fight for a foreign military, so it's kind of an understandable that this would be proposed. It's seems like a pretty grey area right now, I'm going to need to hear some good arguments for and against it before I facepalm it.
Krisken said:
They're not a military. Calling them a military legitimizes terrorism. I can't think of anything I'd rather not happen.
Espy said:
I don't think they want them called "a military". I think they just want people who commit terrorists acts that are citizens to lose their right to citizenship just like those who fight against the US.
I am amazed at how you do that. You specifically mentioned a bill about fighting for a foreign military as an argument for this. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant. What exactly are you trying to say?
 
Before, this happened if you fought for a foreign military. Now would happen if you fought for a foreign military OR a terrorist organization.
 
So wait, if you arrest a foreign national he's not entitled to any protection under the law or what?!
Nope... mainly because you can't deport a US citizen, where as we usually want to get rid of foreign criminals as soon as we can. We usually give them most of the rights though, out of courtesy and respect to our neighbors (and so they give them to ours when THEY get arrested.)
 
Now would happen if you fought for a foreign military OR a terrorist organization.
Er, no. They want this to happen if you're accused of terrorism.

They're not talking about stripping convicted American terrorists of their citizenship, they're talking about doing it before anyone has found them guilty so they can't get all the legal rights afforded to them as citizens, including Miranda.
 
Now would happen if you fought for a foreign military OR a terrorist organization.
Er, no. They want this to happen if you're accused of terrorism.

They're not talking about stripping convicted American terrorists of their citizenship, they're talking about doing it before anyone has found them guilty so they can't get all the legal rights afforded to them as citizens, including Miranda.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
 
Weeeeell, it's actually a bill that seeks to amend an older bill (I think thats how it goes...) that already does this if you choose to fight for a foreign military, so it's kind of an understandable that this would be proposed. It's seems like a pretty grey area right now, I'm going to need to hear some good arguments for and against it before I facepalm it.
Krisken said:
They're not a military. Calling them a military legitimizes terrorism. I can't think of anything I'd rather not happen.
Espy said:
I don't think they want them called "a military". I think they just want people who commit terrorists acts that are citizens to lose their right to citizenship just like those who fight against the US.
I am amazed at how you do that. You specifically mentioned a bill about fighting for a foreign military as an argument for this. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant. What exactly are you trying to say?[/QUOTE]

I'm amazed at how you read my posts sometimes. Please point out where I said they want to call them "a military".
Here, I'll "amaze" you and do it for you, I will bold the part where I say "THIS BILL WILL CALL THEM A MILITARY":
that seeks to amend an older bill (I think thats how it goes...) that already does this if you choose to fight for a foreign military, so it's kind of an understandable that this would be proposed.
Hmmm... nope. Didn't say they wanted to call them "a military", I said, that I *thought* it looked like they wanted to give them into the same consequences AS joining a foreign military, essentially, if you attack the USA, whether by joining a foreign military or committing acts of terrorism you lose your citizenship.
Am I still amazing? I hope so. I do try ever so hard. :p

But seriously, I think you just misread what I was trying to say.

Now would happen if you fought for a foreign military OR a terrorist organization.
Er, no. They want this to happen if you're accused of terrorism.

They're not talking about stripping convicted American terrorists of their citizenship, they're talking about doing it before anyone has found them guilty so they can't get all the legal rights afforded to them as citizens, including Miranda.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think I'm pretty uncomfortable with that...
 

Dave

Staff member
If any of you watched the Daily Show last night, John showed McCain saying he didn't want the SUSPECT to be read his Miranda rights or have any rights at all. Then he played a clip he said "hurt him deeply". It was Glenn Beck saying that just because the guy is caught for terrorism doesn't mean we should rip up the Constitution to prosecute him.

That's right. Glenn Beck is the voice of reason and calm in this shitstorm. He has raised a little in my estimation.
 
If any of you watched the Daily Show last night, John showed McCain saying he didn't want the SUSPECT to be read his Miranda rights or have any rights at all. Then he played a clip he said "hurt him deeply". It was Glenn Beck saying that just because the guy is caught for terrorism doesn't mean we should rip up the Constitution to prosecute him.

That's right. Glenn Beck is the voice of reason and calm in this shitstorm. He has raised a little in my estimation.
Well, I heard one of our local democratic candidates for congress say on MPR the other day that constitution is just something that gets in the way of progress so... maybe they can join up with McCain on this.
 

Dave

Staff member
democratic candidates for congress say on MPR the other day that constitution is just something that gets in the way of progress
I lean left and I would vociferously campaign against this guy. What a dumb statement.
 
I wish I could remember his name, either way, I don't think it's gonna win him many votes, except for some of the nuts maybe.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Sorry for my absence. Usual excuse (work).

A story in this week's edition of Human Events details a request by the Obama Administration to the Departments of Labor and Treasury to provide information regarding the "annuitization" of private 401K plans through something the Obama crowd calls "lifetime income options." Yeah ... lifetime income options paid by and controlled by the government.

60% of DailyKos poll respondents thought the times square bomber would be a tea partier or other "militia wackjob." Less than 10% thought he'd be an islamic terrorist (and more than half that thought it would just be an american sympathizer)

Speaking of the times square bomber, despite going back and forth from the US to Pakistan 13 times, during which he received 5 months of terror/explosives training, he wasn't placed on a no-fly list until this past monday, and when they finally caught him, he was already on a plane about to leave. The most incompetent terrorist since Mohammed Salameh and he almost gets away. Why does Janet Napolitano still have a job, again? More details.

The Obama administration released the DoD's official nuclear stockpile figures, a number that until this week, has deliberately been kept secret.

Transocean Ltd., which owned the drilling rig that exploded in the Gulf of Mexico, eliminated bonuses for top executives last year over concerns about safety problems.

Democrats in Congress are saying that any plans for new offshore drilling would now be "dead on arrival."

The deadline has passed and 18 states refused to set up high-risk insurance pools, leaving the federal government to do the task.

Not only does Greece need financial reform, it must reform an entire culture of entitlement. Are we seeing our future here?

Are hedge funds getting a pass in financial reform legislation? Follow the money.

Pelosi told a crowd of union members and environmentalists (aka. wealth redistributionists) that the Senate is very close to passing cap-and-trade legislation.

Is this why Andy Stern left the SEIU?

The state Department of Education wants a southern Arizona school district to return $1.2 million of state funding because it illegally provided free education to Mexican students not living in Arizona.

A new, and not so shocking, study has found that Congress makes too many vague laws.

A video from the Media Research Center: How NOT To Profile.

Ever heard of this guy? He could be running for president as a Republican in 2012.

Anti gay activist travels with boys for hire?
 

Dave

Staff member
Ever heard of this guy? He could be running for president as a Republican in 2012.
I'd vote for this guy. He doesn't go party line and takes each issue as *gasp* a separate problem! Holy critical thinking, Batman!

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

In fact, if this guy runs for office in 2012 I would vote for him before Obama.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Ever heard of this guy? He could be running for president as a Republican in 2012.
I'd vote for this guy. He doesn't go party line and takes each issue as *gasp* a separate problem! Holy critical thinking, Batman!

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

In fact, if this guy runs for office in 2012 I would vote for him before Obama.[/QUOTE]

I'm not optimistic about his chances. He's just too Libertarian, and it is the curse of those who know best to be regarded the least.
 
It's ok, the TSA is too busy harrassing 2 year olds with the same names as terrorists to catch people who are actually terrorists. No problems there!
 
Well Golly I didn't realize that made it ok.
Why golly, that's not what I said.

Bitching about how rough you have it makes you look like a spoiled brat when everyone around you has it worse.

Go ahead, though, misrepresent what I said. Just don't be surprised when someone does it to you and I just sit back and laugh.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I wasn't commenting on the fairness, I was commenting on the *effectiveness*. We're denying octogenarians the ability to fly because their Congressional fuckin' Medal of Honor has sharp edges, but "oh golly gosh, we can't offend the swarthies by making the search fit the pattern."
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Craaaaaaazy.




I guess this is what they meant by "recovery" ... 80% of people who were out of work last summer are still without a job.

Goldman Sachs CEO says: 'We Will Be Among the Biggest Beneficiaries of Financial Reform.'

Newt Gingrich's latest column: Failure-in-Chief.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are upset with the dividends they must pay annually to the Treasury Department, saying they "cripple any hope they have of returning to profitability."

At the end of the day, politics is all about scoring political points and getting re-elected.

Here is what Congress is up to lately - hashing out the details of an auto safety bill.

Rep. David Obey is retiring and the battle for his all-important appropriations chairmanship has begun.

It turns out that one big reason people assume that politicians are slippery opportunists whose words can't be trusted is that many of them are slippery opportunists whose words can't be trusted.

GOP Rep. Peter King says: "Countries and Terror Groups That Were Absolutely Terrified of Bush Now Think Obama Might Apologize to Them"

Reporting on politics, "The Chicago Way."
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Don't be fooled, just because labor unions haven't gotten their precious card check bill passed doesn't mean that they aren't getting their way in Washington. In fact, Democrats have made sure to give a big-wet, slobbering kiss - two, in fact -- to the labor unions in their Wall Street reform bill. Politico can explain it better than I can

The CEO of Goldman Sachs is asked if he has personally spoken to anyone at Treasury about the regulatory reform effort. His answer? Ummm, um, oh, ah, um.

The Congressional Black Caucus wants a jobs bill to be declared an emergency (so it can by-pass PAYGO rules) and be passed immediately, because "unemployment rates in the inner cities are well above the national average and could lead to violence by inner-city youth during the hot summer."

Eric Holder took a lot of flak yesterday from Congress over the no-fly list.

Just a little reminder .. we still don't have an administrator for the Transportation Security Administration

Is the FCC vying for a government takeover of the Internet? House Republican Leader John Boehner sure thinks so.

Republicans have introduced an amendment in the Senate to the financial reform bill that would begin the process of reforming Fannie and Freddie.

Released memos show that the SEC realized the risk of these collateralized debt obligations as far back as 2006, but did nothing about them.

Here's a common sense point to keep in mind: The key to US growth is building wealth, not entitlements.

Mark Penn mourns the plight of Libertarian voters.

A great column: Obama/Media vs. Arizona/America.

Did you know that the State Department won't even designate independent Taliban entities as Foreign Terrorist Organizations?

In Illinois ... teachers unions win. Your children's education loses.

Government fact of the day: it takes 150 days to hire a new employee in the Cabinet departments.

From the Daily Kos website: "All Religions Pale In Comparison' to Environmentalism."

After the Muhammad "South Park" flap, Comedy Central is apparently developing a whole animated series around Jesus Christ.
 
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