Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
- Thread starter GasBandit
- Start date
Wow... here's a shot of the Wisconsin capitol building a few hours ago...
Seems like now that everyone knows what the legislature was trying to do to the unions, everyone is up in arms. I guess I was wrong: The spirit of the working class IS still alive. Good on those folks who ran... they've basically destroyed their careers, but at least it was for a good cause.
Seems like now that everyone knows what the legislature was trying to do to the unions, everyone is up in arms. I guess I was wrong: The spirit of the working class IS still alive. Good on those folks who ran... they've basically destroyed their careers, but at least it was for a good cause.
But I thought all unions are ebil! That's what I keep hearing, anyway...Wow... here's a shot of the Wisconsin capitol building a few hours ago...
Seems like now that everyone knows what the legislature was trying to do to the unions, everyone is up in arms. I guess I was wrong: The spirit of the working class IS still alive.
On topic: Good for them. Of course unions can be abusive or overbearing at times, but just gutting them isn't a fix. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
You know I'm gonna be super honest here, I don't really know a ton about whats going on in Wisconsin other than the general jist I got from NPR and you guys here, so I'm just saying this based on my reaction to hearing that the dems fled to Ill: Isn't running away, no matter the party doing it, kind of the opposite of how it's supposed to work? I mean, is that what we want our representatives doing when they don't like a bill? I guess I'm just confused as to why thats a good thing... it seems like the kind of thing that voters would get pissed off at. I'm totally open to the fact that maybe I'm missing something here but I can't figure out why anyone would stand for their legislators doing this sort of thing.
Oh, I'm sure they'll be punished for this. Their careers are basically over now and I full expect a recall election soon. However, they took a bullet in order to allow the media more time to communicate just what the Governor was trying to do, which has enraged the pro-union lobby and given them the time they needed to mobilize. Now that the Governor has seen how much of his base is actually pro-union (not to mention seen that they are willing to show up at the drop of a hat), it's entirely likely that he will be willing to renegotiate.
Besides, the Republicans did this years ago in Texas. I didn't exactly see huge crowds denouncing them ether.
Besides, the Republicans did this years ago in Texas. I didn't exactly see huge crowds denouncing them ether.
No, I mean some Republicans fled the state to avoid a vote.
Something I was unaware of. Wisconsin had a $121.4 million dollar surplus at the beginning of the year. Scott Walker took the Governorship and then gave out $140 million in tax breaks to businesses. So in essence, the reason we have a shortfall now is because Walker essentially gave the money to businesses and then blamed the unions.
Yeah... there's some talk that he's been planning his for awhile. It's no surprise that the public service employees that backed him (police and firefighters) were exempted from the proposed changes.
T
TheBrew
Yeah, when I read that I had a big WTF moment. What a son of a bitch.
I guess it's possible that the bill could be that bad, I know you know more about it then I do, but what happens when the next bill is "that bad" as well? Do you get my point? I'm not saying this bill might not be the exception to the rule but do we really want to encourage our lawmakers to run when they don't like a bill?
Yes, I do understand what you are saying Espy. If you want, I can see how many times this has occurred in the states history. I'm quite certain it won't be like the filibuster nonsense that has been the trend on the national level.
Wisconsin legislators are normally very good at having discussions and coming to agreements. This new wave of anti-union legislators in a state which is strong supporters of unions is what caused the large protests and the Democrats to take a drastic measures.
Is it something I want to happen all the time? Of course not. If it got out of hand, I would hope a change to the charter would be made.
Wisconsin legislators are normally very good at having discussions and coming to agreements. This new wave of anti-union legislators in a state which is strong supporters of unions is what caused the large protests and the Democrats to take a drastic measures.
Is it something I want to happen all the time? Of course not. If it got out of hand, I would hope a change to the charter would be made.
Lol, I'm not looking for a research report, just opinion. It seemed like a good place to ask it since everyone here seemed to support their actions. In fact I haven't heard anyone in the media or the nets not support them so far (granted, like I said, I haven't been paying tons of attention).
GasBandit
Staff member
Obama's own Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner, admits that Obama's budget would leave America with "unsustainable obligations over time." What do we mean by unsustainable? Well Obama's own deficit commission warned that by 2020 we could be spending $1 trillion a year in interest alone on our debt. What is the biggest source of this ballooning spending? Entitlements. In fact, 57% of our federal government budget this year went to three programs - Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. However, for all of the talk about wanting to get our fiscal situation under control, Americans don't want Washington to touch their entitlements. A poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard University found that 56% of Americans oppose changes to Medicare benefits and 64% oppose changes to Social Security benefits. So we have an electorate that wants to cut our government spending but doesn't want the government to cut their benefits. Then along with that, a majority of Americans oppose any tax increases to pay to keep these programs operating just at their current level.
For all that talk of Republicans being the Party of No and not offering any solutions or legislative alternatives, Democrats have decided that they aren't even going to put a dog in the fight. Errr ... maybe not a good metaphor ... but House Democrats are not even going to offer their own spending plan. So we have a Democrat-led Congress last year that failed to pass a budget for the first time since 1974, and now we have a Democrat minority that won't even offer their own spending plan?
The Justice Department has asked the Florida judge who struck down ObamaCare to declare that the law must still be obeyed.
John Boehner has a "read my lips" moment.
Unemployment, as measured by Gallup without seasonal adjustment, hit 10.0% in mid-February -- up from 9.8% at the end of January.
According to President Obama's new mouthpiece - Jay Carney -- the "goals" of the stimulus package "have been met."
Thomas Sowell doubts 'the entrepreneurial spirit' will win out over 'big government' in America.
Tennessee is also working on a bill to strip teachers unions of their collective bargaining status.
Pelosi says that she is "very, very proud" of the economic stimulus. "It was definitely worth it."
The infamous journalist Helen Thomas says she thought "Obama would be more liberal because he's black"...
Republicans pushing to cut off funding to implement ObamaCare are setting their sights on the Internal Revenue Service.
Here's an idea to replace the controversial individual mandate to buy health insurance and instead create new national health savings accounts.
Bask in the sheer brilliance demonstrated by Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee when it comes to ObamaCare.
Belgium has now tied the world record for the longest time a country has gone without a government.
What do prominent Republican women have against breast feeding?
For all that talk of Republicans being the Party of No and not offering any solutions or legislative alternatives, Democrats have decided that they aren't even going to put a dog in the fight. Errr ... maybe not a good metaphor ... but House Democrats are not even going to offer their own spending plan. So we have a Democrat-led Congress last year that failed to pass a budget for the first time since 1974, and now we have a Democrat minority that won't even offer their own spending plan?
The Justice Department has asked the Florida judge who struck down ObamaCare to declare that the law must still be obeyed.
John Boehner has a "read my lips" moment.
Unemployment, as measured by Gallup without seasonal adjustment, hit 10.0% in mid-February -- up from 9.8% at the end of January.
According to President Obama's new mouthpiece - Jay Carney -- the "goals" of the stimulus package "have been met."
Thomas Sowell doubts 'the entrepreneurial spirit' will win out over 'big government' in America.
Tennessee is also working on a bill to strip teachers unions of their collective bargaining status.
Pelosi says that she is "very, very proud" of the economic stimulus. "It was definitely worth it."
The infamous journalist Helen Thomas says she thought "Obama would be more liberal because he's black"...
Republicans pushing to cut off funding to implement ObamaCare are setting their sights on the Internal Revenue Service.
Here's an idea to replace the controversial individual mandate to buy health insurance and instead create new national health savings accounts.
Bask in the sheer brilliance demonstrated by Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee when it comes to ObamaCare.
Belgium has now tied the world record for the longest time a country has gone without a government.
What do prominent Republican women have against breast feeding?
Dave
Staff member
Added at: 19:08
To think, somebody tapped that....
twice.
alcohol is a hell of a drug.
I'm impressed. Conservatives have managed to claim Obama is both too liberal (sometimes using the term "most liberal president ever")
and highlight stories where he seems he's not liberal enough. Wow.
GasBandit
Staff member
More like, the conservatives say he's too liberal, and the LIBERALS say he's not liberal enough.
Kinda like Gee Dubya in reverse, where the liberals said he was too conservative and the conservatives said he was not conservative enough.
I remember that! I was equally amazed. It reinforces the notion that presidents must be masochists, because they can never seem to win.
Probably anyone who wanted a fiscally conservative President.
I suppose it depends on what you want from a Republican president. If you want an administration devoted to morality and social issues, then W. was your man. If you wanted limited government and fiscal responsibility, well, not so much then.
Today's crowd size in Madison, Wisconsin is estimated to be around 60,000 people.
Oh for fuck's sake... after reading that article, it sounds like this guy was straight out of the Music Man. "You know what'll keep those terrorists away? A MARCHING BAND! You just gotta pay for the instruments, the uniforms, my lessons, my gambling debts and then you'll be perfectly safe!"
Not knowing a ton about the Wisc. bill a friend of mine posted this and I gave it a read. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it Krisken (and anyone else), it's clearly from his perspective as a conservative state employee (as he states) but it he seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. although I'm sure there is a counter to a lot of this stuff and I'd love to hear other thoughts on it (mainly because the news ain't doing it. All they seem to be talking about is the drama which does not really inform a person).
Beware WALL OF TEXT to follow:
Beware WALL OF TEXT to follow:
Ten Thoughts from a conservative state employee on the budget repair bill:
1. Collective bargaining on benefits is not a right. It is an ability that has been granted in the past but is now being taken away. It is not akin to voting rights or civil rights. All this rhetoric that the bill is "an end to ALL collective bargaining" is simply incorrect and borders on lying. The bill keeps the ability to collective bargain on wages and collective bargaining on benefits can always be reinstated by future legislative action.
2. Unions should never be mandatory. If your union is so terrified that its members will opt out of the union then you should reassess the value of the union to those members. I understand the complexity of payments and benefits for "union employees" and "non-union" employees but the fact remains that people should never be forced to join any organization that makes significant political donations to causes with which you may not agree. The hissy-fit that union leaders are throwing about this bill is mostly about the elimination of mandated contributions to the union. These "contributions" are taken directly from the paychecks (like taxes) and guess what? Those individual workers cannot negotiate with the leadership the union dues ($$$) the union mandates.
3. Despite the claims of the Cap Times editorial board, the recent tax cuts proposed by Walker and passed by the legislature have nothing to do with the $137 million shortfall coming in June of 2011. Yes, the legislative audit bureau estimated a surplus for June - based on spending as written into the budget. It did NOT take into account extra-budgetary spending, namely "health care spending for the poor, prisons, and a payment due to Minnesota in December after the canceling of an income tax agreement between the two states."
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116480323.html When you take that spending into account the State actually does face a significant shortfall and Wisconsin is constitutionally PROHIBITED from running a deficit. That means the money must be paid. And Wisconsin cannot print money.
4. The "Walker Tax Cuts" WILL add an estimated $100 million to the projected 2011-2013 budgetary deficit. That $100 million figure however will be diminished by the additional revenue anticipated to be generated as a result of tax breaks on businesses. For example, if business A can now afford to hire unemployed persons B, C, and D, then B, C, and D are paying income taxes to the State instead of collecting unemployment from the State. For each individual hire the State is spending thousands less on unemployment checks and receiving thousands more in income tax than it otherwise would. That is additional revenue that should be subtracted from the $100 million figure.
5. There is no such thing as a unified "public employees union". The engineers, nurses, doctors, district attorneys, assistant district attorneys, sanitation workers, state troopers, DNR agents, etc all have different unions who all have different positions on this bill. Please don't lump all of us together with those that speak the loudest or carry the biggest signs.
6. Most of the people protesting in Madison are not State employees - meaning the 12% of health care contribution and 5% contribution of overall salary towards the pension does not apply to them...yet. For actual State employees, this contribution will go into effect immediately. For me, this will cost me approximately $250 every month. The decisions made by county boards, village boards, school boards, etc are a result of years of public employee unions being the only people who pay attention to local elections. Unfortunately, it took a State-wide election to rein in local spending of State resources. The State employees that played no part in the excesses of local governments and received none of the benefits are paying the price.
7. Though not comparable to many in the private sector, State workers have had to sacrifice. The commercial we are seeing is simply incorrect. Those of us who are State employees have had to take furlough days and for years have had no reasonable prospect of any raises at all. As a result, this bill feels like a kick in the pants. I personally have had to take more than 10 unpaid furlough days, which have taken away more than $1500 from my pocket because Doyle couldn't balance his budget.
8. Not all State employees are the same. Some State employees may be overpaid for their position, but I can assure you that some are not. I can speak specifically as to the Assistant District Attorneys. The average undergraduate and law school debt of a new lawyer is more than $100,000 after 7 years of college. Assistant District Attorneys in Wisconsin start at $48,000. Theoretically we can make $120,000 a year but that is only if we work for 65 years. You read that right - we make that not if we work until we are 65 - we can make that only if we work 65 years as an ADA. You say as I have with others - "If you don't like it, leave." The problem is, most of the DA's have. Since 2001 we have had 75% turnover. This has created a massive brain drain. The guy I replaced prosecuted homicides and rapes for 10 years and was making $56,000 a year. He left to become a police officer because he got paid more money as a first year patrol officer in Oak Creek than after 10 years as an Assistant District Attorney. (Read: local public employee v. state public employee). I can tell you that my office lost a lot when he left and they hired me. You can't teach experience. The office could have hired another attorney with 10 years experience, but the average attorney pay with 10 years experience is close to $100,000. Why would someone take half of that? Now, should a secretary in the Department of Administration be making $50,000 a year? Probably not. Should someone we entrust with the power to make someone a felon and put them in prison for the rest of their lives make more than a tree trimmer in Racine? I think so. Again, local public employee vs. state employee. http://news.racinepost.com/2010/09/city-salaries-public-works-utility.html
9. The great benefits enjoyed by State employees are oftentimes the cheapest way to make the job competitive with the private sector. Walker says he wants to make the jobs comparable to the private sector - for some of us the benefits are what do it. Speaking for the ADAs, the benefits were negotiated because the money wasn't there for the reduction of the ridiculous number of yearly steps in the pay scale. The State gave vacation days and bought massive Health Insurance plans and created a State pension system that is one of the biggest pension funds in the world. Benefits are cheaper in mass and it is much cheaper to give a week vacation than to increase the pay. Now, years of negotiations for benefits are being rolled back without a comparable pay increase. That scares people. That scares people who aren't looking to simply mooch off the public and have chosen a career of speaking for victims.
10. The Senators who left the State should be replaced by a special election. You don't get to hijack democracy by taking your ball and going home just because you have found a loophole in Senate procedure. You claim it is to encourage debate and negotiation, but Walker's proposal isn't something that came as a surprise - in fact, he's been talking about it for months. He ran on this issue and it was communicated in multiple speeches, advertisements, and debates. In fact, if you wanted debate and negotiation then you Senators should not have voted to pass the Doyle budget adjustment bill two years ago less than 24 hours after it was introduced. The ploy is childish and hypocritical.
11. The teachers who called in sick and caused their school districts to close had better not have the audacity to fight whatever discipline is coming their way. How can you possibly complain that your rights are being violated when instead of using vacation you lied to your district about being sick and got paid to go to Madison to make a political protest? Why should the single parents who rely on each paycheck have to lose DAYS of income so you could protest? How much money do you think you cost the families of your students? It's about the kids, right? Give me a break.
Just a few thoughts by a conservative State employee directly impacted by the bill.
Andrew Wier
It's a very well thought out and fair assessment of the situation. There were only a couple points I would differ on.
Businesses don't hire people because they are spending less on taxes. They know it won't last forever (usually) and simply keep the money made. This is feeling like trickle down nonsense to me.
It's about saving money- If this is truly about the budget, then why hasn't Walker accepted the offer by the unions and state Democrats which they agree to wage cuts and increases in money going to pensions and health care?
I have no doubt this terrible piece of legislation will pass. We'll see if the short term benefits Governor Walker and his allies hope for will pan out. Considering the number of people at the Capitol, I doubt it.
Businesses don't hire people because they are spending less on taxes. They know it won't last forever (usually) and simply keep the money made. This is feeling like trickle down nonsense to me.
It's about saving money- If this is truly about the budget, then why hasn't Walker accepted the offer by the unions and state Democrats which they agree to wage cuts and increases in money going to pensions and health care?
I disagree with point #10 as well. The bill was introduced last Friday and expected to be voted on this past Thursday. 6 days. I don't blame the Democratic Senators for buying time so the state could become aware what was happening. If anything, they are getting people involved in the process and representing their constituents the only way they can- by not being there. They most certainly didn't know about it 'for months'.
I have no doubt this terrible piece of legislation will pass. We'll see if the short term benefits Governor Walker and his allies hope for will pan out. Considering the number of people at the Capitol, I doubt it.
GasBandit
Staff member
Even F.D.R. warned us ... about letting government employees unionize.
House Republicans have voted to block the funding of ObamaCare.
Gov. Scott Walker reiterated Sunday that he wouldn't compromise .
The UK Guardian thinks Barack Obama doesn't get it.
At the protests in Wisconsin, apparently a doctor is handing out fake excuses to teachers in Madison.
Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine laid into Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, telling a crowd of Democrat activists that what's happening in that state amounts to a declaration of war on public workers.
Over the weekend, the House passed $60 billion more in spending cuts.
Health reform's central flaw: Too much power in one office
Proponents of the status quo are in much stronger position to prevail because there are few ways for budget cutters to exert their will.
House Republicans have voted to block the funding of ObamaCare.
Gov. Scott Walker reiterated Sunday that he wouldn't compromise .
The UK Guardian thinks Barack Obama doesn't get it.
At the protests in Wisconsin, apparently a doctor is handing out fake excuses to teachers in Madison.
Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine laid into Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, telling a crowd of Democrat activists that what's happening in that state amounts to a declaration of war on public workers.
Over the weekend, the House passed $60 billion more in spending cuts.
Health reform's central flaw: Too much power in one office
Proponents of the status quo are in much stronger position to prevail because there are few ways for budget cutters to exert their will.