RIAA, "DRM is dead."

[JCM]

Sorry, I cant be bothered to check for the spelling of some trolling forumite with no opinion or argument, who just enters a thread to directly whine. Dont worry, Im sure you cut in real conversations to whine about one of the speakers.

Feel free to invade another conversation ala LeQuack and whine about something, then take to ad-homins and derogatory posts.

How can i make ad hominem if i'm not arguing with the person i'm derogating?!

Well Lian, seeing you were the only one who actually managed to show a bit of intelligence, here's wiki-

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim

I was right on all points on DRM.
Even that "lesbian" reverted back and agreed. Everyone then took to the typical "when wrong, attack the person", not that I mind, its like dessert after winning an arguement and aving noone able to refute your points, have people run to a thread to cry. It also happens to me a lot in debate club, RL. The other side loses, cant prove anything I said was wrong, so they start cursing and saying derigatory remarks.

Its what most humans do.

Lian

See, now that's better.[/quote]I'll stick to Lian then *bows*

I also thought it was strange that such an avid pirater would wonder why people would question his points and facts because of the obvious bias.

Eh, dude, pointing out someone's bias isn't a logical way to counter their arguments... because it ignores the arguments themselves. It's saying "you have a reason to lie" without actually proving he is or isn't.

Psst, he wasnt serious, just trolling. I posted excerpts from everybody else on DRM, saying the same thing as me, and according to the "Do you pirate?" thread, everyone seems as much an "avid pirater" as me but for a few.

All the points stand, and havent been refuted.
-STEAM is DRM (unlike everyone in page 1 seemed to think)
-You need to activate online a physical game disc (most here are against this, some not)
-Some Steam games have SecuROM
-DRM hasnt been proven to deter pirates, and piracy has only increased
-Some gamers have started pirating because of DRM
-Pirates play cracked games with less hassle than paying customers.

If Shego and LeQuack obey me and do entertain me in such an emotional and funnyway for a few more pages is just icing on the cake, after all, its nice to see people unable to argue stick to deragotary posts because they cant refute anything.

*claps hands for Shego and LeQuack to keep dancing*
Cmon retards, its amazing how many posts I can keep you retards making, without refuting anything in this thread!

 

[Le Quack]

Eh, dude, pointing out someone's bias isn't a logical way to counter their arguments... because it ignores the arguments themselves. It's saying "you have a reason to lie" without actually proving he is or isn't.

Why he would wonder that people use fallacies, well that's another questions.

I get it. It's just that JCM will never argue anything. Furthermore, I wasn't arguing for DRM, like JCM was trying to push down my throat. I was merely commenting that you can't trust someone who isn't taking something from a non-biased point. Therefore, avid piraters, and people who love DRM aren't the best people to have in this argument purely because credibility can't be established.

Just like when JCM says "DRM isn't for keeping pirates away, it's a way for the companies to control their products." That statement is a complete biased opinion. That is his argument. But instead, he argues that "DRM" is bad. Its easy to see where someone would get those mixed up. The problem is that his initial statement is whacked job conspiracy nut bullshit, and he argues a whole other point. Evidence for one is not evidence for another. I do argree that DRM is annoying, but to go completely paranoid and say its a way for companies to control the product? That's just silly. It doesn't even make sense. Why would the companies want to control it, if not to avoid pirates? DRM was made to keep pirates away, and it failed. But unless taken to the extreme (IE, Bioshock on release), there's really nothing to be pissed about. They just want a verification.

Just like when you lose something valuable and someone finds it. They want proof that it's actually yours and you aren't just trying to steal it. DRM was the proverbial lost and found guardian. Buying a game, and having you verify your purchase is just there to make sure the person that actually bought it, has the product. It isn't some grand scheme to keep gamers down. There is ZERO reason for gaming companies to do anything that JCM is suggesting they want to do.

EDIT: I took this from the other thread.

Its now more "what can we get away in controlling our stuff" than "stopping pirates"

I don't believe you; show me proof.

 

[JCM]

Heh, guess LeQuack hasnt seen the "how much do you pirate" thread?

I still await you to refute ANYTHING, instead of babbling and saying nothing at all.

Am I allowed to ask JCM an honest question about his opinions? Or am I not important enough to be noticed in the future oh holy one?



Anyway, the question: You don't like the fact that Steam makes you activate a game online the first time you play it, even if you have bought a legal copy. Fine, I agree.

But... You say that the use of this, and other forms of DRM, makes you download cracks to play games that you've bought.

How is being online to download a crack any different from being online to activate?

I have no qulams with STEAM, just correcting the people who said it want DRM.

One buys a pirate game already cracked, or with the crack in the cd.
Most games on torrent sites have the crack/keygen along with the game.

Of course, some people might copy a mate's legit copy, but avid pirates pretty much get everything in their hands.

 

[Le Quack]

Please read what I just posted. If I still haven't tried to refute any part of the argument as a whole, I'll stop.

 

[JCM]

Okay, but first on the bias arguement, I still havent got your reply on the overall forum view.
And on the "avid pirater", looking at my poll, Im about as pirate as most here.

As you havent read the thread, I just corrected Shegiko[s posts with stuff like STEAM isnt DRM, and that there isnt third-party DRM. And I have said-

I dont play PC games anymore

I said its DRM, but taking away some 3rd-party games, its not bad. And I agree 100% on Apple, I stopped buying their shit this year when I had a company-bought Macbook die on me, and go without any support because my %$^# company lost the receipt. (Is it so hard to check the serial number, or bill me for repair?)

But hey, great posts have been made by other posters against DRM-

No offense Chaz, but you're coming off as the dick in the discussion. I play games off line almost exclusively. I don't care for other people in my games, I get enough crap from people as is. I play solely single player, and I'll be damned if I need a net connection for it. I regularly buy games then crack them simply to avoid the need for a net connection. i use my computer quite extensively away from the 'net. Your \"solution\" works in one country, which isn't really all that useful. I regularly play in three different countries, I don't intend to get internet abonnements for each one; especially since they cost an arm and a leg in two of those three (the brits are lucky and the yanks even more so.)

And, DRM means Digital Rights Management. ANY way in which a publisher tries to limit what you can do with digital stuff you purchased is DRM. Yes, down to CD keys and \"what is the 7th word of page 15 of the manual\" from the days of yore. Whether or not all DRM is bad is another debate, but claiming these things aren't DRM is simply trying to alter the definition of the word

Steam's offline mode is notoriously unreliable. I just unplugged my connection to test it and I couldn't start offline mode because steam wasn't online.

My experience: When I moved back to college last January, I was without internet access for a month and had absolutely no problems playing my games.

Observation: For those who want a new game and have no internet Digital Distribution is simply not an option.

(although just one can play the game online at a time, but thats fair enough)

This is true, but I guess this may or may not be an issue depending on the situation. In my particular case I am the only one in my residence with any interest in games. I could see this being an issue for other people, tho.

The only CD copy game that I purchased that required me to be on steam was Dawn of War 2 and that had ten tons of trouble.

If one were to make a case as to why DRM is bad, that's a perfect one. There are not 1, not 2, but 3 seperate DRMs on the game. One for each company involved in the distribution, and it was, quite frankly, a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

No one is saying that DRM is awsome. Anyone saying that would be stupid, or a liar.

One of the points Shego is making, which is also one of my sticking points. If it weren't for the pirates, we wouldn't even need DRM in the first place.

Piracy doesn't encourage DRM anywhere near as much as DRM encourages piracy. DRM was made by corporations, for corporations. They were unsatisfied by the fact that only 80% of the people playing their game had purchased it, and so they added DRM to force the last 20% to buy the game. Instead, the pirates continued to pirate and more legit customers got added to the 'pissed off' list. In the meanwhile, 'player friendly' companies which don't use DRM end up paying the price.

--Patrick

So, what exactly was it that JCM said that was wrong? I don't often agree with him, but on this thread he's been right. Steam is DRM, regardless of how it compares to other forms of DRM. Some Steam games contain DRM beyond Steam itself. DRM is more frustrating for consumers than it is for pirates, and has been since the days of code wheels and looking up random words in the manual.

The points still stand (with Shego now agreeing with them) :smug:

-STEAM is DRM (unlike Shego and gang in page 1 believed)
-You need to activate online a physical game disc (most here are against this, some not)
-Some Steam games have SecuROM
-DRM hasnt been proven to deter pirates, and piracy has only increased
-Some gamers have started pirating because of DRM
-Most pirates play cracked games with less hassle than paying customers.

Anything Ive said besides that is personal opinion, and will gladly accept a differing opinion.

 

[Le Quack]

I would have appreciated it if you didn't post the same thing over and over again. I want you to answer MY argument. I'm not here to answer yours.

 

[JCM]

Hmm, love wikipedia's page on ad-hominems.

A debate is a two-way road LeQuack, in RL entering a thread, insulting someone then running away from questions, while demanding someone read a post probably full of derogatory remarks would get you kicked out of the debate.

Not that it doesn't happen, as Ive said, its normal for people to take to ad-hominems and derogatory attacks when one cant beat him in an argument.

You made a bias claim a page back, and haven't answered other posters saying the exact same thing (and as of page 4, with Shego agreeing to all my points). refute any of those points, or be a gentleman and retract that useless "bias!" attack, after all, most forumites are as much pirates as I am, and the points havent been refuted.

 

[@Li3n]

Well Lian, seeing you were the only one who actually managed to show a bit of intelligence, here's wiki-

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim

I was right on all points on DRM.
Even that "lesbian" reverted back and agreed. Everyone then took to the typical "when wrong, attack the person", not that I mind, its like dessert after winning an arguement and aving noone able to refute your points, have people run to a thread to cry. It also happens to me a lot in debate club, RL. The other side loses, cant prove anything I said was wrong, so they start cursing and saying derigatory remarks.

Its what most humans do.

Yeah, but as i was just insulting you without arguing (i had told Shego she's wrong about Steam on the 1st page or so, while also underhandedly insulting you) i found it illogical for you to just lump me in with Shego....

Also, if you're gonna accuse people of trolling, netiquette demands that you stop feeding them afterwards...

I was merely commenting that you can't trust someone who isn't taking something from a non-biased point.

Then you can't trust anyone...

But an argument shouldn't be about trust, but logical arguments and provable facts...

 

[JCM]

True, but I like debate much, and we do sometimes keep the opponent screaming after being able to refute your points.

Sadly, I have been as much of a troll as you, Shego and LeQuack, at page 1 I already sent pms to the mods apologizing for the oncoming pages that would follow (as its against the rules to turn a thread to a personal fight like Shego wanted, its a formality to let a mod know and should he want, ask you to stop).

But then Im in bed with flu and constant humm of the nebulizer, so was a good time-waster.

Then you can't trust anyone...

But an argument shouldn't be about trust, but logical arguments and provable facts...

Bingo.

Which is why he wont answer or refute anything.
Theres a poll showing that most here pirate as much as I do. There are posts from other posters here saying the same points Im making.

When you cant attack the arguement, attack the man. Welcome to the world of ad-hominem.

Another example-

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
Bill: \"I believe that abortion is morally wrong.\"
Dave: \"Of course you would say that, you're a priest.\"
Bill: \"What about the arguments I gave to support my position?\"
Dave: \"Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say.\"

Anyway, thanks for the entertainment. :smug:

 

[Le Quack]

My debate is not that DRM is bad.

Actually, let's say it is bad. DRM is bad at doing it's job: to stop pirates.
People want to blame the companies for cracking down, but in the end, it is always the pirate's fault. People get mad at the wrong people. If legitimate consumers want less hassle, stop people from pirating. No matter how much it annoys us you still can't blame the company. The DRM would not be there if not for the pirates. There would be no reason for it to be there if not for the pirates.

Sure there are assloads of statistics on how it doesn't work, and it just pisses people off more, but you can't blanket attack DRM as a whole for that. Digital Rights Management refers to everything that a company does to try and stop pirates. It isn't one specific program, or a rootkit, its a blanket term for digital protection. DRM can't be blamed for the fallout of annoyances and problems it makes for legitimate buyers. DRM is a response to pressure from pirates. It would make NO sense for a company to have DRM for any other reason. There is NO reason besides pirates for DRM. People claim that DRM isn't effective. Not true, the current means which DRM acts through are not effective. It's only going to get worse because people won't stop pirating. If you blame them for trying to stop you from stealing, I don't know what to tell you. You might say that DRM "assumes" that people are going to steal the game. NO SHIT SHERLOCK, because people steal the games! Honest customers get screwed because pirates ruined it for everyone.

You will probably NEVER be able to stop the hardcore pirates, just because it's too hard.
What you can do, is stop the people that really don't know how to properly pirate a game from stealing it. People that aren't familiar with all the nuances of getting around DRM don't get to play the game for free. Current DRM IS working, just not to the level that they want it too. It will only get more complicated.

So stop bitching about DRM if you pirate games, you are only making it worse on everyone. It is YOUR fault that honest people that buy the games have trouble.

 

[JCM]

So stop bitching about abortion if you are a priest, you are only making it worse on everyone. It is YOUR fault that honest people cant have abortions.

Ad hominem fallacy again? Note how closely it follows the examples of ad-hominems-

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

Well, as debate rules say, when you cant beat the argument, try and whine about the man.
Especially when everyone is as much a pirate as me.

I this forum. :smug:

 

[Le Quack]

Well, at least I tried to put out a well thought argument.

Also, way to not look at any of my points and go straight to ad hominem.

 

[JCM]

I agree with the rest of it, minus the ad-hominem and these-

Current DRM IS working, just not to the level that they want it too. It will only get more complicated.

Because right now, I could take a 10-min taxi ride to the "feira dos importados" and get any game, for any system, cracked and working (3 games for 10 reais!!) and the only thing stopping that in the US isnt DRM, but tight police control and the fact that a store selling pirated cds and ROMs would get shut down fast.

There would be no reason for it to be there if not for the pirates.

Not exactly. Take Itunes DRM, its to lock people in to buying iPods.

One could say that as much as piracy is being combated by DRM, piracy is being used as an excuse to put forth DRM that previously would be infringing consumers rights.

Sadly, I grow bored, and now that Im out of bed, Ive gotta go.

 

[Le Quack]

One could say that as much as piracy is being combated by DRM, piracy is being used as an excuse to put forth DRM that previously would be infringing consumers rights.

Once again, that's not DRMs fault. That's piracy's fault.

 

[SpecialKO]

One could say that as much as piracy is being combated by DRM, piracy is being used as an excuse to put forth DRM that previously would be infringing consumers rights.

Once again, that's not DRMs fault. That's piracy's fault.

Not quite, at least in regards to iTunes non-interoperability with non-iPods. That particular measure of DRM has no intent, in any shape or form, in preventing piracy, but rather in securing Apple market share.

You can argue that DRM as a concept only exists because of piracy (which is true), but arguing that measures such as the iTunes non-Apple device lockout wouldn't have been implemented had piracy not existed is a bit of a stretch.

 

[figmentPez]

There is NO reason besides pirates for DRM.

Bullshit. DRM is a way for media companies to force consumers to buy new versions of media, even if there is no benefit to the consumer in doing so. Want to put the CDs you legally purchased on your iPod? It's generally held that it's fair use of the media to convert them to a compressed format. Want to put the DVDs you legally purchased on your iPod? Sorry, the DMCA says it's illegal to do that, even if it's for personal use that would otherwise fall under fair use. You'll have to buy the video all over again, even if it'll be the exact same content.

That's the current reason for DRM. Not to prevent piracy, but to try and force honest consumers to repurchase what they've already paid for. Media companies have realized they can't sell us a better version of the White Album anymore. Most consumers don't care about SACD or DVD-audio or whatever higher quality versions they might come up with, CDs are good enough, as long as they can be transferred to an iPod. No more upgrading from LP to 8-track to cassette to CD. So they want to set the law so that media will be as limited as possible.

 

[JCM]

This. DRM is not because of only piracy, but more a mix of piracy being the cause, or the excuse.

Itunes exists to force people to use Ipods, DVD region encoding exists to force people to buy locally (otherwise brit gamers would import instead of buying overpriced UK games), online account checks exists to create a profile to track achievements, Amazon´s DRM exist so it can cancel your ebook anytime, anyplace.

Its idiotic to assume that DRM exists only because of piracy.

 

[Bubble181]

a) this thread is hilarious, with both Shego and JCM claiming the other one's all riled up and emotional and being a baby. Frankly, neither sounds like they're in any way emotional about it; both have been copy-pasting their answers for a while, and both have very clearly been posting with the express purpose of egging the other one on (wasn't that against the rules somehow? Oh well, it's funny).

b) on topic though, in this particular instance, I have to say that JCM got the points for, you know, being right. "Oh, I was just saying that to egg you on" is a pretty ridiculous attempt to defend yourself. I'll go play the "all-homosexuals-should-be-locked-up" faux-religious zealot in a thread and see if I can getr some people to defend their rights, than, five pages later, say I was just playing to get them worked up. It might actually even be true - heck, I'm sure we've all done it with CDS, who's loveably easy to put on his horse - but it still means your original points were flawed.

c) As has been pointed out, there are pretty strong reasons, besides piracy, for modern DRM. If we were actually allowed to *buy* our games/the code it's made of, there wouldn't be any platform exclusives. You wouldn't need to rebuy the same stuff again and again. And so on. Not to be the "ooh, big bad corporations" person (Heck, I'm all in favour of them, in general), but it's poignant that there are precious few companies who'll use the fact that you validated etc etc your games as a means of *helping you*. Really. GamersGate, or GoG, for example, WILL allow you to redownload a game you've bought legally from them. No matter where or how. Obviously, you're not supposed to share your account with all your friends. Now, I'm sure there are people who do (and shame on them -_-). Most other and larger companies either make you jump through a bunch of hoops, or even simply don't allow, redownloading.

d) To answer a question asked a while ago: the difference between downloading a crack or a cracked version of a game, versus having to go on line for activation, is at least twofold. First of all, a cracked version can easily be copied to a pc ith no internet access. One could download a cracked game at place A, and install it on their pc in location B, without internet, with no problem. (for example, at home and in college; or downstairs on the house PC with internet and upstairs on the bedroom PC where you're not allowed internet by your parents. There are plenty of other circumstances where it's impractical or impossible to go on line with a gaming pc). Secondly, a crack (or cracked version) I can download and store now. It'll always work (well, you might need a newer crack for a patched version or something etc, but, grosso modo, it will). Online activation, on the other hand, will only work as long as the servers are up for activation. Now, I understand perfectly that when the company takes down their servers, multiplayer will be harder or impossible...But single player? Screw that.
And mind you, the gaming industry is extremely volatile. Heck, go look at 5 or 10 year old games - how many of those publishers and/or programming houses still exist? Not many. Even if something still exists with the same name, it's often not actually the same company.

 

[@Li3n]

One could say that as much as piracy is being combated by DRM, piracy is being used as an excuse to put forth DRM that previously would be infringing consumers rights.

Once again, that's not DRMs fault. That's piracy's fault.

Right, it's the excuses fault that they're doing it...

 

[JCM]

:aaahhh:

a) this thread is hilarious, with both Shego and JCM claiming the other one's all riled up and emotional and being a baby. Frankly, neither sounds like they're in any way emotional about it; both have been copy-pasting their answers for a while, and both have very clearly been posting with the express purpose of egging the other one on (wasn't that against the rules somehow? Oh well, it's funny).

b) on topic though, in this particular instance, I have to say that JCM got the points for, you know, being right. "Oh, I was just saying that to egg you on" is a pretty ridiculous attempt to defend yourself *snip rest of post*

On rules, its kinda a gray area (it always happens here, look at most locked threads), which was why I sent pms to the mods back when Shego first replied, telling them that should they consider it against the rules, I´d gladly stop.

Anyway, my apologies for those who wanted to discuss piracy and DRM, to which I created a thread so that good points wouldnt be wasted here.