Imo, yes. This is where I started to enjoy it a lot more (although not as much as Rebels).
[TV] The What Animation Are You Watching Thread 2!: The Sequel!
- Thread starter Bones
- Start date
I did mention that the series in general gets a bit darker, but also better right around that point.
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Rebels has a lot of the same problems early on that Clone Wars does, in that it can't decide how serious or how goofy it wants to be. It still measures out to be better than Clone Wars by the end.
I'm having an increasingly harder time turning off Clone Wars. @AshburnerX was right. It gets WAY darker in Season 4.
Clone Troopers executing a Jedi that's turned to the dark side? Anakin dealing with slavers and watching one slave kill themselves? Holy shit.
WELL South Park had an ep that was blatantly anti-mask, kinda figured.
It's because it's not about whether or not the masks work, it's about resisting authority (something the South Park guys have always done, look back at the Man Bear Pig stuff) and maintaining the illusion of control. Republicans/conservatives resist mask mandates because it's an easy, performative way to stiggit to the Libs that doesn't have immediate, noticeable consequences that also allows them to pretend that the ongoing crisis isn't real. That it will kill some part of the people who perform it doesn't matter; as long as they can maintain the illusion of control, they can keep living in denial.
Just wait until the second half of season 5.
The moment you realize that Teen Titans Go has had more seasons than the show it spawned from and arguably more good episodes.
GasBandit
Staff member
I argue to this day that "Finally a Lesson" is one of the best episodes of ether series, by virtue of it being a wholly mean spirited take-that to the fans of the original series complaining about Go's "lack of lessons". The entire joke is that the lesson (how to invest in a rental property) is completely fucking boring and really doesn't pay off until years after the fact and even then only if you use someone else's money for the initial investment. It's just an entire episode of the show runners telling the people who don't watch their show to fuck off.
Then they start doing actual lesson episodes, like takedowns of the gig economy (Lication) and the important of Labor (Labor Day), how money is completely made up and arbitrary (Two Bees and a Wasp), how business ethics aren't really a thing (Business Ethics Wink Wink), and how maybe you should consider a community college instead of a bigger one when you look at the price (Who's Laughing Now). Yes, it's a show MOSTLY about butt jokes and farts, but when it wants to it can be SCATHINGLY critical of problems in society and actually teaches kids things that are kind of important.
The movie isn't too bad ether. Robin cheering on the violent and brutal shooting of the Waynes heals my soul.
figmentPez
Staff member
That seems like a strawman to me. Maybe I missed the larger discourse, but my complaint about TTG has never been about a lack of lessons. It was about Robin straight up acting like a villain for the sake of a joke, and having that done repeatedly. I don't care if there's a lesson. A lot of goofy, funny stories have been told in comics without a lesson, while the heroes still act like heroes.
Maybe TTG got better over time, but I'm just pissed that they severely broke character. Want to do a story about a character cutting down a tree of wisdom and turning it into a toilet plunger? Make it about a villain! Or at least acknowledge that your hero is turning down a dark path. They could have had one of the Hive Five go on that journey to make a better version of Robin's staff because they're pissed at always being beaten by Robin. It would have fit for a villain to cut down a sentient tree, and then toss it aside to become the handle of a toilet plunger. Or they could have had Slade luring Robin down the evil path, having him take back up his Slade style suit, and make the joke that Robin didn't even need a multi-part episode to go down such a dark path. But no, they just had the straight-up hero act like an asshole, completely out of character. It was fucking bad writing, severely lacking in creativity.
GasBandit
Staff member
Much like Pez, my issues with TTG were the zanification of the characters into parody caricatures, the shift in tone and character development, and all in all it just started feeling more "producty" than previous. Maybe they decided to leverage their viewership capital into subversive lessons later, I don't know - they lost me at episode 1. Or really, even before that - they lost me in the board meeting where they decided on the change.
And even worse, it felt like DC wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the characters (at the time). Oh, TTG too kiddy toony zany wacky low-stakes not-edgy for you? Well, here's New 52 Titans, where Starfire is a sociopathic nymphomaniac, they fight each other more than any villain, and have less than zero concern for things like innocents and collateral damage. THAT must be what you want, right? Because there's no happy medium, you're either a spongebob fan or a berserk fan, and there's no overlap or middle ground. Enjoy, edgelords!
And even worse, it felt like DC wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the characters (at the time). Oh, TTG too kiddy toony zany wacky low-stakes not-edgy for you? Well, here's New 52 Titans, where Starfire is a sociopathic nymphomaniac, they fight each other more than any villain, and have less than zero concern for things like innocents and collateral damage. THAT must be what you want, right? Because there's no happy medium, you're either a spongebob fan or a berserk fan, and there's no overlap or middle ground. Enjoy, edgelords!
They definetely do a lot more subversive stuff or just plain commentary about the industry in general these days. The episode about the CoMpetetion trouncing them in the movies until Wonder Woman saves the day comes to mind (DC), or the several episodes about the actual production of the show that indicate the writers and production team are working at South Park's production pace to put out an average of 49 episodes a year.
Oh, I forgot another one that came out this year: "Fat Cats" is literally a takedown of modern late stage capitalism.
It's not a strawman. That episode was literally written because they got that complaint as feedback at one point. So they did the episode and made the lesson boring and adult-centric, despite being sound advice for anyone actually looking to do this. They do this a lot with the "hater episodes", which all invariably involve Control Freak acting as the mouth piece of the 2006 fans and the constant abuse the makers of THIS show get from them when they had nothing to do with the '06 series or it getting cancelled. Whether you like this show or not, they genuinely don't deserve the constant death threats they get and they apparently get a lot of them.
figmentPez
Staff member
I guess that's the thing about strawmen these days, you can find just about anything said in a tweet, and say "See, the fans are saying this," and make it seem like it's not a strawman, because you've got a direct quote! Only that quote may not represent the majority of your critics. Hell, you can find an hour long YouTube video that you can use as "proof" and it won't necessarily be representative of any more than the smallest sliver of fans. I'm sure someone somewhere said "But where are the lessons?" and got some upvotes. Presenting that as the big reason why fans criticize TTGo! isn't necessarily fair, though. It certainly doesn't line up with the criticism I've seen of TTGo! on Tumblr or any of my social media feeds.
You're right that they don't deserve death threats, and that's a huge problem with a number of fandoms, but "I got death threats" is not a get-out-of-criticisim-free card. I got a death threat for a post I made on Tumblr just yesterday. Doesn't mean my rant about Valentine's Day was flawless and above reproach. It's really shitty that some people think that abuse is the same thing as criticism, or that they even need to voice their criticism directly to creators at all. It sucks that fans think they're owed access. But it also doesn't mean that creators are justified in taking the worst of their critics and presenting them as a fair representation of all criticism, and then dunking on the illogical complaints that were the result of feeble minds, and pretending that they've silenced all criticism and proven that they are flawless.
Also, I'm pretty sure the creators know that they're burning strawmen, or they wouldn't be doing it. They're playing into the haters and getting them riled up on purpose. Maybe it's cathartic for them, maybe it's a cynical way to get attention for the show. I don't know their motivations, but they know they're not dealing with the larger Teen Titans '06 fanbase, because the vast majority of that fanbase has moved on and doesn't even realize TTGo! still has new episodes coming out. The only people still comparing TTGo! to TT'06 are ones who are dedicated to irrational hate. They aren't TT'06 fans, they're just people who like to hate something. (And I will note that my complaint about TTGo! did not compare it to Teen Titans '06 in any specific way. My constructive criticism even offered ways for it to be the zany TTGo! formula, but better, because it respects the idea of super heroes. My suggestions are a "Yes, and..." type of comedy, while the episode I'm criticicizing say "No, but..." which is a really lazy, and usually unfunny, way to do comedy.
I showed Hailey this over Christmas Break. I think the only time Opus and the gang have been animated before.
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FINALLY finished the last half of the last season of Bojack Horseman, beautiful and somber end to a beautiful and somber series.
One of the best French/Japanese productions ever and they are looking to do a sequel series in the future.
GasBandit
Staff member
As with all things, $.
The whole point of clone troops is an expendable fighting force.
Why give expensive, bespoke weapons to disposable personnel?
(The parts and expertise to make a light saber would probably be several times that of any other man-portable weapon system)
Honestly, it's likely more than ANY quality melee weapon would do the job (vibroblade, electrostaff, etc) but why put your troops into melee range and deal with that danger when a few blaster shots at range are going to deal with 99% of droids that don't have shields? The Trade Federation has to deal with the same economics of scale that the Republic does and it's not like they choose to build troops with lightsabers ether; regular and super droids went down to normal blaster fire just fine.
For the record, at least some Clone armor had knuckle vibroblades for this kind of thing.
For the record, at least some Clone armor had knuckle vibroblades for this kind of thing.
Dude, a farm boy trying to fuck his sister figured it out. Roll Tide! /s
And yet they almost always end up in melee with the droids, which is part of the trope I suppose that comes with the medium of presentation. My favourite example being that droids communicate verbally so the audience can understand.
One thing I love about the Battletech universe is the economics of it. It's annoying yet realistic, which for a game where long range missiles don't fly over a kilometer is hilarious.
GasBandit
Staff member
Yeah, but he was born a space wizard and didn't know it.
And 500 MW lasers lose their cohesion at half that distance!
I asked a friend once why, if overheating a mech isn't just a possiblility but a viable battle strategy to the point of carrying around flamethrowers and napalam rockets, they didn't also carry around tanks/missiles filled with liquid nitrogen... the idea being you'd heat up a mech then shatter it's armor via thermal expansion/contraction with the quick changes in temperature.
Their response was basically "Because then that's all anyone would do."
Nah, some crazy bearded hobo taught him. That kid didn't have a clue until he got his hands on 'im. That's why you don't let 'em near your kids! Owen and Beru were right!
I'm REALLY digging The Clone Wars now. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to stop watching.
What I find interesting is, as the series progresses, there's less emphasis on characters we see in the prequel movies. And also more emphasis on bad guys like Sith and bounty hunters.
Which all works in favor of the show. There are far less episodes focusing on Obi-Wan, Anakin, or the clone troopers. They still show up but they're more like guest appearances compared to earlier seasons. Asoka gets more character development arcs. And it's all great.
An issue I had with earlier seasons was I didn't really care about the characters from the movies because I knew their fate. And I didn't care about the clone troopers. Still don't for the most part. But I'm really digging Maul's rise to power, for example.
The change from mostly single episodes to 4-episode story arcs is especially effective, I find. There was one about a civil war where the Jedi train the rebels but can't get directly involved. And I didn't care about the rebels at first, but after spending 4 episodes with them, I was engaged in their plight and actually felt a little sad by one death. They worked to make me care about them. Same for an episode with several astromechs, including RD-D2. Thought it was just a one-off episode, but it turned into a surprisingly engaging 4-episode story.
What I find interesting is, as the series progresses, there's less emphasis on characters we see in the prequel movies. And also more emphasis on bad guys like Sith and bounty hunters.
Which all works in favor of the show. There are far less episodes focusing on Obi-Wan, Anakin, or the clone troopers. They still show up but they're more like guest appearances compared to earlier seasons. Asoka gets more character development arcs. And it's all great.
An issue I had with earlier seasons was I didn't really care about the characters from the movies because I knew their fate. And I didn't care about the clone troopers. Still don't for the most part. But I'm really digging Maul's rise to power, for example.
The change from mostly single episodes to 4-episode story arcs is especially effective, I find. There was one about a civil war where the Jedi train the rebels but can't get directly involved. And I didn't care about the rebels at first, but after spending 4 episodes with them, I was engaged in their plight and actually felt a little sad by one death. They worked to make me care about them. Same for an episode with several astromechs, including RD-D2. Thought it was just a one-off episode, but it turned into a surprisingly engaging 4-episode story.
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I need to give that show a full run myself, didn't care for the early seasons like Nick, but watched it on and off and liked a lot of it.
Holy shit, that was gorgeous.
YEAH...I'm fully done with South Park, the quality is consistently inconsistent and I just don't god damn care any more.
GasBandit
Staff member
I get the feeling Trey and Matt also stopped caring a long time ago.