There is trouble in Iran

[@Li3n]

Of course pure math doesn't take into account irreconcilable differences in ideology...

But the proof doesn't supply any timeframe, so there's still time Canada... you guys are just always slow on the uptake. Unlike your neighbours, who decided to just skip to the logical conclusion from the get go (it helped that they had a main idea to split over).

 

[JCM]

Yes, I was saying that the American people are largely to blame for what AMERICA has become. Not Iran. Since at the most recent, we had been discussing the american de facto 2-party system, and the relative inability to break out of it.

This.

Iranians pretty much did vote that loon in the first time around, a terrible step backwards after its previous president´s reforms, improvement of women´s rights and dialogue between civilizations project.

 

[GasBandit]

I don't get where people get that we "devolved" into a two party system. It was pretty much that way since the inception of the country and became apart of the presidential elections when George Washington left office.

The closest this country came to having a viable third party, Theodore Roosevelt caused the vote to split, resulting in the least popular ideas and policies to win.

Instant runoff elections would solve this.

That way, last election, a hypothetical person could have turned in a ballot that said

In order of preference:
1)Kinky Friedman
2)Ron Paul
3)Barack Obama
4)Hillary Clinton

... it would have allowed him to try to vote for a non uberparty candidate, but if his first (and second) choices were eliminated in the runoff, he still would have voted Obama in the runoff round.

 

[MindDetective]

I don't get where people get that we "devolved" into a two party system. It was pretty much that way since the inception of the country and became apart of the presidential elections when George Washington left office.

The closest this country came to having a viable third party, Theodore Roosevelt caused the vote to split, resulting in the least popular ideas and policies to win.

Instant runoff elections would solve this.

That way, last election, a hypothetical person could have turned in a ballot that said

In order of preference:
1)Kinky Friedman
2)Ron Paul
3)Barack Obama
4)Hillary Clinton

... it would have allowed him to try to vote for a non uberparty candidate, but if his first (and second) choices were eliminated in the runoff, he still would have voted Obama in the runoff round.

Some regional elections in Minnesota are likely to use this method in the future. http://www.startribune.com/politics/local/47774887.html

I find it interesting that the method was challenged as violating one person/one vote.

 

[Papillon]

Instant runoff elections would solve this.

That way, last election, a hypothetical person could have turned in a ballot that said

In order of preference:
1)Kinky Friedman
2)Ron Paul
3)Barack Obama
4)Hillary Clinton

... it would have allowed him to try to vote for a non uberparty candidate, but if his first (and second) choices were eliminated in the runoff, he still would have voted Obama in the runoff round.

Instant runoffs aren't the greatest system either. It doesn't eliminate strategic voting.

Suppose there's a left, moderate, and right wing candidate. The left candidate has by far the most popular support, at about 40%, but the moderate and right wing candidate both have about 30% of the vote, with the remaining 5% going to lesser parties. Now, if there's a runoff between the right and left candidates, the moderate vote is going to split roughly evenly between the two giving the election to the left candidate. On the other hand, if the runoff is between the left and the moderate candidate, most of the right voters are going to vote for the moderate, handing him the election. But if the left candidate gets about 5% of his people to vote for the right candidate, he will still get 55% of the vote in an instant runoff with the right candidate, ensuring he will be elected.

 

[GasBandit]

Not perfect, sure, but better than what we're doing here. At least the 3rd party candidate in your example stands a chance rather than just being at best a futile laughingstock and at worst a direct act of sabotage against whatever major party candidate has the closest platform.

 

[Chibibar]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090623/ap_ ... n_election

You know the last sentence got me thinking. Iran is REALLY cracking down on reports and such during the riots and what not. Does Iran is trying to hide something or just following policy?

 

[DarkAudit]

at best a futile laughingstock

Perot.

at worst a direct act of sabotage against whatever major party candidate has the closest platform.

Nader.

 

[GasBandit]

at best a futile laughingstock

Perot.

at worst a direct act of sabotage against whatever major party candidate has the closest platform.

Nader.

Actually, I considered Perot to be the latter as well. The laughingstock I was thinking of was Harry Browne, who I voted for in 2000.

 

[Jay]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090623/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

You know the last sentence got me thinking. Iran is REALLY cracking down on reports and such during the riots and what not. Does Iran is trying to hide something or just following policy?

A bit of column a and a bit of column b

 

[YAOMTC]

Two things of note.

First,

http://iran.whyweprotest.net/

Second,

http://insurgen.info/wiki/Project_Greenwave

Iran's government is putting pictures of targeted protestors on the web for the Basij to identify and harass, arrest, or worse. These individuals could be jailed, or worse, dead by tomorrow. This website needs to die.

Note that if gerdab.ir goes down, all other sites (shahabnews and others) which link to their images won't function properly either.

The linked page explains more about how to contribute.

Targets:
http://shahabnews.com/ -- still up as of this post
http://bultannews.com/ -- down right now
http://bultannews.ir/ -- down right now
http://gerdab.ir/ -- up as of this post

Do not try to bandwidth-DoS the gerdab.ir site, as it is physically in Iran and you might overload the country. Slowloris or a syn-flood on port 25 is an option.

 

[@Li3n]

Hmm... i wonder why they aren't just cutting off the internet.

 

[Iaculus]

Hmm... i wonder why they aren't just cutting off the internet.

Maybe they aren't the most tech-savvy of regimes?

As far as I know, they don't have anything akin to the 'Great Firewall of China'. Might not be registering the 'net as a serious threat yet.

 

[Chibibar]

Hmm... i wonder why they aren't just cutting off the internet.

Maybe they aren't the most tech-savvy of regimes?

As far as I know, they don't have anything akin to the 'Great Firewall of China'. Might not be registering the 'net as a serious threat yet.

I thought one of the phone company does give the country to monitor traffic within the country (Iran has it, I read an article in BBC. I'll try to find it when I'm at work. I'm at home right now)

 

Something interesting happening today on my campus:

Cultures in Conflict: The Iranian Election and its Aftermath
________________________________________
Panel Discussion
Wednesday, June 24th
Noon to 1:00 pm
Humanities Building Room 202
________________________________________
The College of Arts and Sciences and its Cultures in Conflict class invite you to a panel discussion about the recent elections in Iran and the days of demonstrations which have followed. What is happening? How are things changing? What does it mean for the United States? How might this affect you?

Panelists include Dr. Majid Nabavi of Bellevue University's College of Business, Adjunct Professor Matthew Eggleton of our College of Arts and Sciences, and Professor Pat Artz, also of our College of Arts and Sciences. Dr. Nabavi is a native of Iran and has many close personal contacts in Iran today. Professor Eggleton is Chief of Partner Nation Intelligence Education in Stuttgart, Germany with a specialty in counterterrorism and peacekeeping operations. Professor Artz teaches an interdisciplinary course on the Middle East for the College of Arts and Sciences.

Please feel free to bring your lunch to the Humanities Building Room 202 on Wednesday, June 24 at noon. Bring a friend. Bring a relative. Don't forget to bring a lunch. We will see you then. Questions? Please direct them to Pat Artz at pat.artz@bellevue.edu

FYI: The event also will be available on the web at http://stream.bellevue.edu/mediasite/Vi ... 1731267b36

 

[@Li3n]

Hmm... i wonder why they aren't just cutting off the internet.

Maybe they aren't the most tech-savvy of regimes?

As far as I know, they don't have anything akin to the 'Great Firewall of China'. Might not be registering the 'net as a serious threat yet.

They did block many sites and there where some reports that the net slowed down to 5kb/s... i was wondering why no total shutdown, like they did in Moldova. Also, mobile phones...

 

Things are heating up again:

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) — Security forces wielding clubs and firing weapons beat back demonstrators who flocked to a Tehran square Wednesday to continue protests, with one witness saying security forces beat people like “animals.”

At least two trusted sources described wild and violent conditions at a part of Tehran where protesters had planned to demonstrate.

“They were waiting for us,” the source said. “They all have guns and riot uniforms. It was like a mouse trap.”

“I see many people with broken arms, legs, heads — blood everywhere — pepper gas like war,” the source said.

Around “500 thugs” with clubs came out of a mosque and attacked people in the square, another source said.

The security forces were “”beating women madly” and “killing people like hell,” the source said.

“They beat up a woman so bad she was all bloody,” the source said in a description that underscores the growing and central role of women in the uprising.

 

[Denbrought]

Watching the world's head countries' reactions to this is hiiiilarious. Like a dog that can't decide if to go left or right and keeps swinging it's body, oh man.

 

[Chibibar]

Things are heating up again:

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) — Security forces wielding clubs and firing weapons beat back demonstrators who flocked to a Tehran square Wednesday to continue protests, with one witness saying security forces beat people like “animals.”

At least two trusted sources described wild and violent conditions at a part of Tehran where protesters had planned to demonstrate.

“They were waiting for us,” the source said. “They all have guns and riot uniforms. It was like a mouse trap.”

“I see many people with broken arms, legs, heads — blood everywhere — pepper gas like war,” the source said.

Around “500 thugs” with clubs came out of a mosque and attacked people in the square, another source said.

The security forces were “”beating women madly” and “killing people like hell,” the source said.

“They beat up a woman so bad she was all bloody,” the source said in a description that underscores the growing and central role of women in the uprising.

you know, I understand that Iran thinks the west has influence over their people's protest, but I think Iran has to look a little deeper into their own politic and see when people has more access to information and knowledge (back to education defense) your common people will be smarter and probably do not want a "despotic" leader.

It looks like the Iran Supreme body think the people want to change the government. It is not, at least from what I understand, the people just want a full recount or a revote of their president (even if it is just a sham) but that is what the Iranian want. Why not give it to the people? If the government did that, I'm sure there won't be riots in the streets. I mean Iran admit to some unaccountable votes and such.

-- Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:37 am --

Watching the world's head countries' reactions to this is hiiiilarious. Like a dog that can't decide if to go left or right and keeps swinging it's body, oh man.

Well, it is because this is an internal conflict. Anyone outside of Iran can't really interfere with this matter. It is a civil matter that needs to be handle by their government.

 

Watching the world's head countries' reactions to this is hiiiilarious. Like a dog that can't decide if to go left or right and keeps swinging it's body, oh man.

The hell does that mean? What choices do the world leaders have? Anything they do will make it worse! If they back the current regime they are hanging several million people out to dry. If they back the protesters and they fail to get anything done they have irrevocably ruined any ability to deal diplomatically with Iran.

People can talk shit all they want about what's going on over there, but if we act in any way it'll only get worse.

What would you have them do? Seriously.

 

[WolfOfOdin]

Ed's got a point.

Right now the West must not intervene, to do so would only make the Ayatollah's rantings seem truthful. This movement must sadly continue to be what it is, an organic, Iranian-grown movement.

 

[Laurelai]

That's what irritates the bugfuck outta me with the GOP nagging Obama to back Mousavi. Wtf good do they think *that* will do?? The minute the U.S. makes any opinion known, the Supreme Leader and Ahmadinejad will immediately wrap themselves in their flag and point fingers at the Devil West and people will rally to them. Let the situation implode as it will and then deal with the pieces left- no way in hell we should be sticking our noses in right now.

 

[Denbrought]

Watching the world's head countries' reactions to this is hiiiilarious. Like a dog that can't decide if to go left or right and keeps swinging it's body, oh man.

The hell does that mean? What choices do the world leaders have? Anything they do will make it worse! If they back the current regime they are hanging several million people out to dry. If they back the protesters and they fail to get anything done they have irrevocably ruined any ability to deal diplomatically with Iran.

People can talk shit all they want about what's going on over there, but if we act in any way it'll only get worse.

What would you have them do? Seriously.

Whoaaaaah, calm down. Didn't you read what I said? I *don't* care what they decide, I'm just amused at their declarations and current predicament. Me saying "Hahah, that's a funny trainwreck to watch" doesn't imply "Bah, I would surely prevent this accident if given power."

 

Fair enough, Den. :goes off looking for other fights to pick:

 

[Chibibar]

Watching the world's head countries' reactions to this is hiiiilarious. Like a dog that can't decide if to go left or right and keeps swinging it's body, oh man.

The hell does that mean? What choices do the world leaders have? Anything they do will make it worse! If they back the current regime they are hanging several million people out to dry. If they back the protesters and they fail to get anything done they have irrevocably ruined any ability to deal diplomatically with Iran.

People can talk shit all they want about what's going on over there, but if we act in any way it'll only get worse.

What would you have them do? Seriously.

Whoaaaaah, calm down. Didn't you read what I said? I *don't* care what they decide, I'm just amused at their declarations and current predicament. Me saying "Hahah, that's a funny trainwreck to watch" doesn't imply "Bah, I would surely prevent this accident if given power."

I guess I misread your words (like many have done to mine hehe...) You think it is hilarious, but I think it is serious. It is important that NONE of the country directly or indirectly interfere with Iran's INTERNAL issues. I do like President Obama's stance that to let Iran handle their own situation. Why back Mousavi? It is totally pointless IMO since the Supreme leader is well... Supreme. The president of Iran is just a puppet consider the Cleric Grand Council (12 of them) and Supreme leader can "veto" any decision the president can make (hence Supreme Leader title)

It is internal conflict and thus let Iran government handle it. Why give fuel to them to rally against "the West?" I'm sure Iranian Government is trying to spin this so they can continue their nuclear goals without opposition. If they can blame the west for their people's death, the other will rally behind them and Iran will be worst off (IMO)

 

[JCM]

The Iranian embassy is not accepting visitors here in Brazil, and have put extra guards inf ront of it.
How´s it over there?

 

[WolfOfOdin]

Technically, we don't have an embassy for Iran in the US, they more or less work out of Pakistan's under the Iranian Interests section so.....yeah

 

[Denbrought]

I heard they've thrown out of the country a few british ambassadors, guessing they will do the same with other countries--and they will reciprocate?

 

[MindDetective]

GB did evict two Iranian ambassadors, I think.

 

[Chibibar]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... -election/

Here is another spin on it.

I am not sure what is the newspeople are trying to do. There are separate goals in this issue.

1. The U.N. is trying to deter Iran to develop nuclear weapon program. (hence the letter)
2. Iranian people protest the election result thinking it is a fraud.

I see it as two separate issue and not relate to each other. The U.S. does not want to ruin the chance of talking Iran out of its nuclear weapon program (or research that can lead to it) so U.S. is staying out of the Iran protest. Obama is just condeming the action of oppression not the government. I know it is a fine line, but I see it as two separate issues.

 

[WolfOfOdin]

I heard they've thrown out of the country a few british ambassadors, guessing they will do the same with other countries--and they will reciprocate?

They've already expelled Britain's ambassadors, which prompted Britain ousting the Iranian ones.

 

[Jay]

Was Neda gunned down because she didn't have her head garment on in public? She has been labeled a "terrorist" by Iran forces... what... a 16 year old musician who wants a revote stands for terrorism in that country? Man, that video was brutal.

 

[Chibibar]

I heard they've thrown out of the country a few british ambassadors, guessing they will do the same with other countries--and they will reciprocate?

They've already expelled Britain's ambassadors, which prompted Britain ousting the Iranian ones.

Eye for an Eye.

Backstory: The British government originally brought back the extended family of those diplomat as a safety measure since the family member can't go out due to violence against Britain. So Iran boot out British Ambassadors and British boot Iran's ambassador in return.

 

[Laurelai]

Was Neda gunned down because she didn't have her head garment on in public? She has been labeled a "terrorist" by Iran forces... what... a 16 year old musician who wants a revote stands for terrorism in that country? Man, that video was brutal.

Most likely just wrong place, wrong time

 

[Denbrought]

Was Neda gunned down because she didn't have her head garment on in public? She has been labeled a "terrorist" by Iran forces... what... a 16 year old musician who wants a revote stands for terrorism in that country? Man, that video was brutal.

She was shot down by the government, if they didn't label her terrorist it would be as good as accepting they weren't entitled to kill her, and that's not wise.