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Xbox one

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May 21, 2013#1

strawman

The new Xbox was announced today.

It has Skype, and does group video conferencing.

Now if it only cost $99...[DOUBLEPOST=1369156726][/DOUBLEPOST]Also looks likes it's a complete media center. Voice and gesture controlled.

May 21, 2013#2

MindDetective

Liiiiiiink?

May 21, 2013#3

strawman

The live press conference can be seen here:

Http://xbox.com/en-us/hub/reveal

May 21, 2013#4

Gared

Forbes' Real-Time analysis of the Microsoft press conference.

May 21, 2013#5

Hylian

The specs are sounding nice but I want to see games,pricing, and more info on what kind of DRM they plan on implementing.

May 21, 2013#6

strawman

He just used the magic phrase: "it changes everything..."

Every system comes with a kinect. That's been updated to a 1080p camera, more joints in the skeletal algorithm, and they indicate that it's good enough to be able to read your heartbeat.

I'm excited for the robotic applications. The old kinect changed things, but if this has the voxel resolution they claim it will be a big deal for robotics and 3D cad/cam applications.

May 21, 2013#7

figmentPez

Wut... did they actually make a game console that can be stacked with other components? Is that even allowed?

May 21, 2013#8

strawman

Hylian said:
The specs are sounding nice but I want to see games,pricing, and more info on what kind of DRM they plan on implementing.

Meh. Games are important to gamers, but Microsoft is attempting to take over the entire entertainment center experience.

Ooh, they have game DVR built in. So you can capture your gameplay, edit it and post it online from the Xbox itself.

May 21, 2013#9

Gared

I hope they have an option to buy a version with a larger hard drive. 500GB sounds awful small for a media center like this.

May 21, 2013#10

strawman

It's got USB 3.0 so presumably they'll allow or sell expansion.

May 21, 2013#11

Fun Size

I've had both XBoxes now, and honestly I can't image wanting a new one for a long time, but the Skype inclusion (which I've basically been waiting for since MS bought them) is a big win. That's going to be nothing short of Demolition Man making calls on a big screen tv awesomeness.

May 21, 2013#12

Cheesy1

Ugh, please die consoles. End the misery.

May 21, 2013#13

strawman

No release date or pricing information today. "Later this year" is all we have.

They have an exclusive relationship with the nfl, and you can put in your fantasy team, and it will keep track of your team score in real time. When one of your players makes a real score, your fantasy team is updated.

Also the halo franchise is birthing a live action halo TV series, with Steven Spielberg producing it.

They have 15 game exclusives in the first year, 7 of which are from existing franchises.

Xbox live servers now provide enough computational power that mmo games are possible.

May 21, 2013#14

LittleKagsin

Did the finalize the decision about being online at all times to play games?

May 21, 2013#15

Dave

NOT backwards compatible with XBox 360. So all those games you have? Worthless.

May 21, 2013#16

Chad Sexington

Holy shit! FIFA, Madden AND Call of Duty?

What unexpected madness is this! Just... tears of joy.[DOUBLEPOST=1369159694][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave said:
NOT backwards compatible with XBox 360. So all those games you have? Worthless.

??? Will this break your 360? This is a bit "N64 not backwards compatible with SNES: SNES games are now worthless."

I've never understood the expectation for backwards compatibility.

May 21, 2013#17

Dave

Chad Sexington said:
??? Will this break your 360? This is a bit "N64 not backwards compatible with SNES: SNES games are now worthless."

I've never understood the expectation for backwards compatibility.

Not everyone wants 15 consoles attached to their system to be able to play all the games. This is why I like the PC. I can still play old DOS games on my PC if I want to.

May 21, 2013#18

Chad Sexington

Dave said:
Not everyone wants 15 consoles attached to their system to be able to play all the games. This is why I like the PC. I can still play old DOS games on my PC if I want to.

Right, I get that, I do. I too prefer PC gaming and that reason is one among many why.

But I also understand that when you change your technology, not everything can be backwards-compatible. There are limitations, time, money... I just don't feel like having to swap your consoles around occasionally is a huge sacrifice. And I certainly don't agree that it renders your old games worthless. You can still enjoy them.

May 21, 2013#19

Hailey Knight

I really hope the Wii U gets better, because my current feeling about this and PS4 is "do not want".

If not, maybe I'll just skip a gen and get a life or something.

May 21, 2013#20

strawman

Dave said:
NOT backwards compatible with XBox 360. So all those games you have? Worthless.

The games are worth as much now as they were before the announcement. Microsoft didn't go back in time and destroy the games while you were at work.

They didn't build in the convenience backwards compatibility would have given you, but to proclaim this as some great error or failing on their part, and that this decision retroactively ruins all the fun you've already had and paid for is quite irrational.

Backwards compatibility would have enhanced the value of the new system, and doubtless made it more attractive to you and other customers.

But it's a feature, not a basic human right.

Do note, however, that all apple mobile iOS devices are backwards compatible. So there are companies that will support you in your need.

Microsoft is not one of them.

May 21, 2013#21

Chad Sexington

Quotemander Prime said:
get a life or something.

whoa

what is this

tell me more about this

May 21, 2013#22

strawman

Chad Sexington said:
whoa

what is this

tell me more about this

It's more expensive and takes more time than a game console, however those that have indulged say they wouldn't trade it for any console, so maybe it's better?

May 21, 2013#23

LittleKagsin

I know the technology is great and the ability to do so many things with one console is awesome, but....I'm not quite interested. I want a console that I can just game on. And while many may be social gamers...I'm not. I like to game by myself. So the inclusion of all the other media applications isn't exciting to me. It's just going to jack up the price by including things I won't use...(The same can be said for the PS4 and Wii U.)

I just wanna play games.

May 21, 2013#24

Hailey Knight

Backwards compatibility is more attractive to me as a buyer because it not only increases the range of what that single system can play, but also means I'm not penalized if I buy it early in its existence. Example: I got a PS2 right when it came out, when it didn't have shit for games. I could still play my PS1 games on it while waiting for Twisted Metal Black to come out though, so it didn't feel like I had a useless block in my room (until it became one since it was a first release PS2 hahaha).

May 21, 2013#25

figmentPez

Ya know, when the Xbox One and the PS4 come out, I'm thinking that I might just get...

a PS3. If the price drops to $150, that might be a good time to grab one. Finally play Flower or Journey.

May 21, 2013#26

Fun Size

stienman said:
Do note, however, that all apple mobile iOS devices are backwards compatible. So there are companies that will support you in your need.

Yeah? Tell that to all of these vinyl albums I've got laying around.

May 21, 2013#27

Ravenpoe

I have what Dave demands in gaming.

May 21, 2013#28

Dave

I also don't want 150 consoles to be able to play the games I have. And since the XBox One is going to be a complete media center, it only makes sense that it will be the one you keep hooked up, which means it's a huge pain in the butt to play the games I already own.

May 21, 2013#29

Frank

The Xbox One is a complete disaster. Missed the conference, but everything I've read doesn't sound good.[DOUBLEPOST=1369163232][/DOUBLEPOST]Microsoft and Gamestop stocks are dropping, while Sony's is skyrocketing. Funny.

May 21, 2013#30

Cheesy1

But if it was backwards compatible, they wouldn't be able to force you to re-buy your old games off of Xbox Live to play them again! :mad:

May 21, 2013#31

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
I also don't want 150 consoles to be able to play the games I have. And since the XBox One is going to be a complete media center, it only makes sense that it will be the one you keep hooked up, which means it's a huge pain in the butt to play the games I already own.

How many consoles do you have hooked to your tv now?

May 21, 2013#32

Gared

Damnit, I wish I'd thought to buy some Sony stock with my Halbucks before today's press release.

May 21, 2013#33

strawman

Well, all I know is rule number one:

Never buy versions one and two of any Microsoft product.

So if it holds true, this will be the first Xbox worth looking at.

I suspect the video game exclusives (halo, call of duty, etc) will drive this console's adoption regardless of its limitations. Whether it can keep going beyond that I don't know.

But Microsoft understands that the console market is dying, and if they can't compete with roku, android, and apple for the battle over the media center, they're going down.

I really think, though, that the video conference stuff might be a big part of it. Companies will buy them just so they don't have to deal with polycom's expensive junk.

But all we can do is wait and see.

And wish that we could put options on our stock market game so we can profit from stock drops.

May 21, 2013#34

MindDetective

stienman said:
But Microsoft understands that the console market is dying, and if they can't compete with roku, android, and apple for the battle over the media center, they're going down.

Yup, it has been the plan since the 360.

May 21, 2013#35

Dave

Ravenpoe said:
How many consoles do you have hooked to your tv now?

None. But my son has several.

May 21, 2013#36

Gared

This all assumes that Microsoft doesn't manage to make a complete and utter hashup of Skype, now that they're really working on integrating it into all of their products and services. If they're lucky, they should do OK with it - but they will need to be lucky. I know the guy at Microsoft who's in charge of integration and continuing development of the Skype service. I worked for him for a year and a half. He's a good guy, really nice, really understanding, good at recognizing when his employees (even contractors) are going above and beyond expectations, and even good at rewarding those employees - but he's horrible at making use of his team members' time, skills, and energy beyond the one or two tasks that he has them assigned to. When I was working for him I only actually worked about 2 or 3 hours a day, unless I managed to beg a project off of another department, because no matter how many times I asked him for additional work, he could never come up with any projects for me that took more than about 45 minutes to finish.

May 21, 2013#37

Frank

stienman said:
But Microsoft understands that the console market is dying, and if they can't compete with roku, android, and apple for the battle over the media center, they're going down.

And that data comes from? Each console generation has sold more consoles than the last.

May 21, 2013#38

LittleKagsin

Dave, you should invest in a game switch. Nate and I love ours, you can have up to 4 consoles hooked up at one time and you just press a button to switch between them all. I bet you can get one that allows more, but 4 is plenty for us.

This is the one we got:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/21621670?...1=g&wl2=&wl3=21486607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem

I'm sure you could get nicer ones elsewhere, but we just wanted a cheap one. Anyway, yeah, it's an easy solution.

(Also side note; I don't think consoles are dying. The market is changing, for sure, but not dying.)

May 21, 2013#39

Dave

Game switches for high def are pretty pricey. We used to have one for our normal stuff but after moving to HD we haven't found ourselves able to justify the expense.

May 21, 2013#40

figmentPez

Dave said:
Game switches for high def are pretty pricey. We used to have one for our normal stuff but after moving to HD we haven't found ourselves able to justify the expense.

Monoprice has quite a few HDMI switches for ~$30

May 21, 2013#41

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
I suspect the video game exclusives (halo, call of duty, etc) will drive this console's adoption regardless of its limitations.

Call of Duty is on all the consoles and PC.

Dave: if it's your son who has all those consoles hooked up, it's his problem to unhook and rehook them and he should set the TV back to whatever it was when he found it if it's in the room where everyone else watches TV.

We have only one AV outlet on our HDTV, meaning only the PS2, N64, or Gamecube can be hooked up at one time. To handle this problem when we need to switch systems, I have an easy solution: I get behind the TV and switch the goddamn cables. It takes less than 10 seconds. Add 5 more seconds to unplug one console in and plug in another. And I don't call my dad over to make him do it--I've been the one hooking this shit up since I was 10.

HDMI cables are even easier since their plug shape is standard--you don't have a PS3 specific one, an Xbox specific one, etc. Just move the in-console side from console to console, no fussing with multiple sets of cables.

May 21, 2013#42

strawman

figmentPez said:
Monoprice has quite a few HDMI switches for ~$30

http://www.monoprice.com/Category?f...ultiCategoryId:10110&searchtype=subcategoryid[DOUBLEPOST=1369166494][/DOUBLEPOST]Frequently switching the cables by hand is a recipe for damaging the connector in the TV or console. A much more expensive solution than buying a video switcher, in the long run.

May 21, 2013#43

Frank

Frank said:
And that data comes from? Each console generation has sold more consoles than the last.

Again, I'd like to know where Steinman came about the death of consoles. This is sales date for consoles since the beginning.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/05/daily-chart-13[DOUBLEPOST=1369168229][/DOUBLEPOST]I can say this for myself. It requires a Kinect to function? I will never own an Xbox One.

May 21, 2013#44

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
Again, I'd like to know where Steinman came about the death of consoles. This is sales date for consoles since the beginning.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/05/daily-chart-13[DOUBLEPOST=1369168229][/DOUBLEPOST]I can say this for myself. It requires a Kinect to function? I will never own an Xbox One.

It has Kinect built in. So, yes, it does require one

May 21, 2013#45

Shakey

figmentPez said:
Monoprice has quite a few HDMI switches for ~$30

I've heard some of the cheap ones have trouble passing through HDCP. Which means a lot of bluray players and even the PS3 might not work.

May 21, 2013#46

strawman

Units sold is not the correct measure. Revenue is:

http://business.time.com/2013/02/11/game-over-why-video-game-console-sales-are-plummeting/

I'd also argue that this "console" is no longer a game console, but an entertainment console, and that while we may continue to have games as part of our entertainment centers, the single purpose game console is not going to be around much longer.

You might buy an entertainment console and use it only for games it its no longer a game console.

May 21, 2013#47

LittleKagsin

Sorry, I know I'm repeating myself, but did they say anything about the requirement to be connected to the internet to be playing games? I didn't see it anywhere...?

May 21, 2013#48

strawman

Frank said:
I can say this for myself. It requires a Kinect to function? I will never own an Xbox One.

Why does the kinect itself prevent you from even considering a particular device?

May 21, 2013#49

LittleKagsin

Shakey said:
I've heard some of the cheap ones have trouble passing through HDCP. Which means a lot of bluray players and even the PS3 might not work.

The one Nate and I have is really cheap and it works on our PS3 just fine.

May 21, 2013#50

strawman

LittleKagsin said:
Sorry, I know I'm repeating myself, but did they say anything about the requirement to be connected to the internet to be playing games? I didn't see it anywhere...?

They did not say anything about it. I doubt we will even know until its release.

May 21, 2013#51

Shakey

LittleKagsin said:
Sorry, I know I'm repeating myself, but did they say anything about the requirement to be connected to the internet to be playing games? I didn't see it anywhere...?

There might be internet required to install a game. They have said things like single player won't require a constant internet connection.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/microsoft-next-xbox-will-work-even-when-your-internet-doesnt/

May 21, 2013#52

Azurephoenix

Frank said:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/05/daily-chart-13[DOUBLEPOST=1369168229][/DOUBLEPOST]I can say this for myself. It requires a Kinect to function? I will never own an Xbox One.

What, you don't want the kinect monitoring what you're doing when the console is off and reporting it back to Microsoft?

May 21, 2013#53

Frank

stienman said:
Why does the kinect itself prevent you from even considering a particular device?

Because I have nowhere to mount it. Also, because I don't want it.

May 21, 2013#54

LittleKagsin

Awesome, thanks Shakey and stienman!

May 21, 2013#55

Shakey

LittleKagsin said:
The one Nate and I have is really cheap and it works on our PS3 just fine.

The one you posted doesn't use HDMI cables, so HDCP wouldn't be a problem.

May 21, 2013#56

Dave

LittleKagsin said:
Sorry, I know I'm repeating myself, but did they say anything about the requirement to be connected to the internet to be playing games? I didn't see it anywhere...?

They have announced that it will NOT need always on. Let me find a link for you.[DOUBLEPOST=1369169414][/DOUBLEPOST]http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4352542/xbox-one-always-online-not-required-used-games-work

May 21, 2013#57

LittleKagsin

Wonderful, thank you Dave!

May 21, 2013#58

Frank

Supports used games by making you pay "A FEE" for it if a disc has already been installed on another console.

That's "supporting" used games?

It's an offline pass.

May 21, 2013#59

Dave

Frank said:
Supports used games by making you pay full price for it if a disc has already been installed on another console.

Nobody said it was full price. If I sell you a car and it's no longer available to me, I assume you will pay something for it. Not full price, but something. I think that's what they are going for here. There's a few Steam games I wish I could sell as I never play them.[DOUBLEPOST=1369169767][/DOUBLEPOST]An yes, I think I should get the money for the sale, not XBox. Which won't happen, but still...

May 21, 2013#60

Frank

Dave said:
Nobody said it was full price. If I sell you a car and it's no longer available to me, I assume you will pay something for it. Not full price, but something. I think that's what they are going for here. There's a few Steam games I wish I could sell as I never play them.[DOUBLEPOST=1369169767][/DOUBLEPOST]An yes, I think I should get the money for the sale, not XBox. Which won't happen, but still...

I find it disgusting. Sony has been nebulous about this but if they pull the same shit, I'm out on consoles. Video gaming consoles can fuck right off.

May 21, 2013#61

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
I find it disgusting. Sony has been nebulous about this but if they pull the same shit, I'm out on consoles. Video gaming consoles can fuck right off.

Sony's said the PS4 will play used discs, but you have a good point, they haven't said anything about penalties.

May 21, 2013#62

Frank

At least Sony's not marketing the PS4 like it's a Roku with motion controls.

May 21, 2013#63

ThatNickGuy

I'd thought about skipping this generation of consoles and finally getting a good gaming desktop computer. This is sounding more and more like a good idea.

May 21, 2013#64

Frank

Microsoft claiming otherwise right now. WE'LL SEE.

May 21, 2013#65

ThatNickGuy

Maybe they saw the backlash of comment regarding it and suddenly went, "SHIT! Back pedal, people, back pedal!!"

May 21, 2013#66

Frank

Also, Holy shit to how fucking big the console is!

That thing is bigger than first gen VCRs.

May 21, 2013#67

GasBandit

It looks like a 1980s VCR.

Anyway, keyboard and mouse support as gaming input? If no, not interested. Maybe not even if yes, considering I already have a gaming PC and and WDTV.

May 21, 2013#68

Hailey Knight

One more thing on backwards compatibility, this time from the company's side: it encourages a customer to stick with the brand. If the next console doesn't have backwards compatibility with the prior one, so I have to use the prior one to play its games, it doesn't matter which console I select next, whereas if the next one plays both old and new, it means I can use it for both purposes and seems like a better buy.

May 21, 2013#69

Frank

Quotemander Prime said:
One more thing on backwards compatibility, this time from the company's side: it encourages a customer to stick with the brand. If the next console doesn't have backwards compatibility with the prior one, so I have to use the prior one to play its games, it doesn't matter which console I select next, whereas if the next one plays both old and new, it means I can use it for both purposes and seems like a better buy.

Yeah, that's why the PS3 was the number one console of the current generation.[DOUBLEPOST=1369173561][/DOUBLEPOST]Some commentary on why this banking on the allinone box nonsense is exactly that.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4...xbox-one-microsoft-didnt-learn-from-google-tv

May 21, 2013#70

Frank

Microsoft customer support claims that the fee thing is bullshit.

Microsoft Corporate Vice President says that you'll be paying full price fees for using a used disc.

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

But what if you want to bring a game disc to a friend's house and play there? You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison says.

FU-HUCK YO-HOOO.

May 21, 2013#71

Jay

TBH, this makes me want to look forward to the PS4 so much more.

May 21, 2013#72

Frank

May 21, 2013#73

Cheesy1

A very tired and a VERY Angry Joe gives his opinion on the reveal:

May 21, 2013#74

Frank

This is the kind of shit that Kinect being always on and always connected to your Xbox One is going to be used for. Microsoft execs have even spoken about it in releases and on investor calls.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmir...teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

May 21, 2013#75

strawman

Frank said:
This is the kind of shit that Kinect being always on and always connected to your Xbox One is going to be used for. Microsoft execs have even spoken about it in releases and on investor calls.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmir...teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

https://www.halforums.com/threads/is-your-daughter-pregnant-ask-target.27195/

May 21, 2013#76

Frank

Never noticed it was posted before. Cool.

May 21, 2013#77

Hylian

I am trying to be impartial and wait for more details but I am so disappointed and angry at Microsoft right now. There was a complete lack of games that anyone actually cares about during the unveiling and all they talked about was a bunch of crap that (at least as for myself) no one gives a fuck about. Sure they may be nice to have but they so not the most important thing to be touting for a new console. Ugh... I am just so freaking annoyed and pissed off right now. Plus the lack of backward compatibility is annoying but I could look past except than they dump the news about the "used" games. Which makes it obvious why they don't include backwards compatibility into the new system it is because they want to freaking rape you and take even more money from you. The fact that I can't loan a game to my brother or friend without them having to PAY to play it is freaking bullshit! If that wasn't bad enough they announced that even with single player games you will need to log in online at least once a fucking day!

Grrrrrr...... this may just be the new console system I don't buy.

May 21, 2013#78

Gared

It's interesting looking at this entire debacle as an outside observer. I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I played a game on my Xbox 360, my Wii, or my PS2; so I'm clearly not part of their target market. This fee to play a used game thing is going to be interesting to watch, especially as it applies to lending someone a copy of a game and how it applies to gaming tournaments. For instance, if I lend my buddy my copy of a game to try out before he buys it himself, and he then has to pay the full price of the game as a fee before he can play it, when I take my disc back, does he have the option of downloading the content to continue playing, or does he have to go buy another full copy with a disc? How are gaming tournaments going to work? Will each person who signs in to the console have to buy a copy of the game? If I try to circumvent the "lend a buddy a game" situation by lending him my Xbone, can he play on the console with his own XBLA, or does he have to use mine (and therefor I have to give him my password)? And, if I have to give my buddy my password, and Microsoft finds out and bans me for it, do I then (because XBLA is tied in to MSA now) also lose access to my entire Microsoft Account, and therefor get locked out of my Windows 8 desktop computer, my Windows phone, and my Microsoft Surface tablet?

Of course, all of these questions are hypothetical.

May 21, 2013#79

GasBandit

To me, really, the Xbox has just been a loathsome diversion for the gaming industry from day one. They killed the mechwarrior PC series so they could have mechassault as an Xbox exclusive. Crimson skies (PC game) sequel? Xbox exclusive, despite it being a flight simulator! W.T.F. And, of course, it bears large responsibility of the consolitis contracted by so many games. Frankly, the console industry is one I have no warm feelings for, but microsoft's adventures in console gaming can't die too soon for my taste, so they can quit undermining PC games.

May 21, 2013#80

Chad Sexington

Cheesy1 said:
A very tired and a VERY Angry Joe gives his opinion on the reveal:

I guess this is off topic but how can people watch this guy? He just curses and throws insults and makes gun noises after reading off talking points? God, it's stressful just listening to him.

May 21, 2013#81

Frank

Chad Sexington said:
I guess this is off topic but how can people watch this guy? He just curses and throws insults and makes gun noises after reading off talking points? God, it's stressful just listening to him.

You find it stressful, I find him irritating.

May 21, 2013#82

Cheesy1

Keep in mind, in the video he says that he hasn't gotten any sleep for the last day or so before making that video. He's usually a lot more coherent in his review videos. Plus he is pretty pissed at the same time, and I can't blame him. This generation of consoles can go choke to death on a spiny cactus.

Edit: I like him because his views on games and gaming in general are pretty close to my own, and he's not afraid to be brutally honest in his reviews. Unlike most of the other shills that call themselves "game reviewers."

May 21, 2013#83

Chad Sexington

Frank said:
You find it stressful, I find him irritating.

Well, definitely also irritating. Irritating is probably the better word. I suppose I'm not stressed over his rage

May 21, 2013#84

bhamv3

It would appear that we, as gamers, are no longer the Xbox's target demographic.

May 21, 2013#85

ThatNickGuy

This sums it all up rather well.

May 21, 2013#86

strawman

ThatNickGuy said:
This sums it all up rather well.

That about captures the entire presentation. The rest was pretty much filler.

May 21, 2013#87

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
This sums it all up rather well.

OMG WANT

May 21, 2013#88

ThatNickGuy

Quotemander Prime said:
OMG WANT

FOR THE SPORTS OR THE TV, BRO!?

May 21, 2013#89

strawman

FOR THE SPORTS TV, OF COURSE.

May 21, 2013#90

PatrThom

stienman said:
Xbox live servers now provide enough computational power that mmo games are possible.

Would be interesting if MSFT moves their "server farm" to the cloud...a cloud made up of all the XBoxOnes which happen to be left connected all the time.

Gared said:
This all assumes that Microsoft doesn't manage to make a complete and utter hashup of Skype, now that they're really working on integrating it into all of their products and services.

Too late. I use the iOS version of Skype every night for 1-4hrs so my family can stay connected. It constantly crashes and/or runs out of memory and quits, it will frequently lose my audio even though I have not muted it. It completely takes over all audio and mutes my alerts and messages BUT if one does manage to get through it causes Skype to crash, presumably because it hates having its audio taken away. If I end one call and try to start another, it will crash (have to start fresh every time), and this usually also includes reconnected calls. It will lose audio entirely and auto-end my call, but when I hang up/end the call and then try to sign out and back in, it tells me I can't sign out unless I end my current call first. If I switch to another app, the other app's UI is pushed aside for some unexplained reason...unexplained, that is, except that it only seems to happen when Skype is running, and the shape is suspiciously the same size as Skype's banner ad. Oh, but those ads keep coming in just fine. Yes, it is so important that I get those banner ads, even if they reduce my screen space down to where I can only see a handful of contacts. Every day, I say I'm going to reinstall the last non-MSFT version of Skype (I kept it just in case), but I'm never sufficiently motivated to brave the hassle.

After watching the shortened version of the XB1 reveal posted above, all I can say is that it sounds like they've decided that the newest XBox thingie should be MSFT's vision of what they think the AppleTV should've been, sorta like how PixelSense was originally the direction MSFT felt their iPad competitor should've gone. Bigger! More features! Wider audience!

--Patrick

May 21, 2013#91

Jay

Cannot share games between roommates or family members
Cannot borrow games from friends before buying
Cannot install on new Xbox if your old one breaks out of warranty or still stolen, possibly?
Can't rent games either... Sorry Gamefly...

Seriously, is this a massive fail or am I seeing this wrong?

May 21, 2013#92

PatrThom

Jay said:
Seriously, is this a massive fail or am I seeing this wrong?

Ah, the age-old Vendor Lock-in question.

--Patrick

May 21, 2013#93

SpecialKO

I don't mind vendor lock-in...as long as they charge Steam prices.[DOUBLEPOST=1369198720][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gared said:
For instance, if I lend my buddy my copy of a game to try out before he buys it himself, and he then has to pay the full price of the game as a fee before he can play it, when I take my disc back, does he have the option of downloading the content to continue playing, or does he have to go buy another full copy with a disc?

Going by available information, he will not need to buy another disc, because paying the fee will download the entire game to his Xbox harddrive (and it will do the same to yours when you enter your code in to yours). So, since the whole game is on the hard-drive already, he will not need a disc at all.

How are gaming tournaments going to work? Will each person who signs in to the console have to buy a copy of the game?

Unless they create tournament licensing (just to make things even more complicated), I'm guessing so.

If I try to circumvent the "lend a buddy a game" situation by lending him my Xbone, can he play on the console with his own XBLA, or does he have to use mine (and therefor I have to give him my password)?

Apparently, the first Xbox the game gets tied to will allow anyone with a profile on it to play the game. So roomies/family are still fine. This suggests to me that if you give your friend your box, it will work with his profile just fine.

And, if I have to give my buddy my password, and Microsoft finds out and bans me for it, do I then (because XBLA is tied in to MSA now) also lose access to my entire Microsoft Account, and therefor get locked out of my Windows 8 desktop computer, my Windows phone, and my Microsoft Surface tablet?

A very, very good question.

May 22, 2013#94

Gared

PatrThom said:
Would be interesting if MSFT moves their "server farm" to the cloud...a cloud made up of all the XBoxOnes which happen to be left connected all the time.

Too late. I use the iOS version of Skype every night for 1-4hrs so my family can stay connected. It constantly crashes and/or runs out of memory and quits, it will frequently lose my audio even though I have not muted it. It completely takes over all audio and mutes my alerts and messages BUT if one does manage to get through it causes Skype to crash, presumably because it hates having its audio taken away. If I end one call and try to start another, it will crash (have to start fresh every time), and this usually also includes reconnected calls. It will lose audio entirely and auto-end my call, but when I hang up/end the call and then try to sign out and back in, it tells me I can't sign out unless I end my current call first. If I switch to another app, the other app's UI is pushed aside for some unexplained reason...unexplained, that is, except that it only seems to happen when Skype is running, and the shape is suspiciously the same size as Skype's banner ad. Oh, but those ads keep coming in just fine. Yes, it is so important that I get those banner ads, even if they reduce my screen space down to where I can only see a handful of contacts. Every day, I say I'm going to reinstall the last non-MSFT version of Skype (I kept it just in case), but I'm never sufficiently motivated to brave the hassle.

After watching the shortened version of the XB1 reveal posted above, all I can say is that it sounds like they've decided that the newest XBox thingie should be MSFT's vision of what they think the AppleTV should've been, sorta like how PixelSense was originally the direction MSFT felt their iPad competitor should've gone. Bigger! More features! Wider audience!

--Patrick

That's sad to hear. Not terribly surprising, given the overall director of the team that's in charge of Skype (not the individual I'd discussed earlier, but his bosses), but still sad.[DOUBLEPOST=1369199711][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jay said:
Cannot share games between roommates or family members

Cannot borrow games from friends before buying

Cannot install on new Xbox if your old one breaks out of warranty or still stolen, possibly?

Can't rent games either... Sorry Gamefly...

Seriously, is this a massive fail or am I seeing this wrong?

No, you're not seeing it wrong. This is Microsoft continuing to completely fail to grasp the concepts behind the console gaming market - or trying to bend those concepts to suit their PC software model. Hopefully they'll backtrack on some of this asinine bullshit, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

May 22, 2013#95

CynicismKills

Fratbox One.

May 22, 2013#96

Shawn

I'm suddenly very happy that I own a WiiU now.

Also it looks like EA saw the press conference too.

May 22, 2013#97

AshburnerX

No used/borrowed/rented games? Always online? The Kinect that I nether need nor want, but will be forced to use?

Looks like I'm going PS4 next gen.

May 22, 2013#98

Shawn

AshburnerX said:
No used/borrowed/rented games? Always online? The Kinect that I nether need nor want, but will be forced to use?

Looks like I'm going PS4 next gen.

I won't be getting a PS4 or an XboxOne. At least not right away until there are favorable opinions for either. I don't know if the WiiU counts at next gen. If it doesn't than I guess I'm just not going "next gen" which at this point seems really debatable on what exactly next gen means. It doesn't seem that either of the systems is going to be mind-blowingly advanced when it comes to their games. There just isn't enough of a huge jump in graphics or capability one any of them that gives me the impression that the several year wait has been worth it. It's just become a huge race to get closer and closer to becoming a PC without technically being one, and quite honestly, still far inferior to one. The only company that seems to get it right now is Nintendo. They want to give us a gaming experience that you can't get on the PC through the use of the wiimotes, gamepad, and multiplayer party games. Their answer to backwards compatibility is "Well duh. What idiot company wouldn't want that integrated into their system?". Free online multiplayer. Reasonable prices E-shop. I mean comon. Yeah Nintendo failed to provide the games needed to carry the system right out of the gate, but at least the system caters to fucking gamers.
If I want to watch TV well... I'll turn on my fucking TV. Thanks, XboxOne. I can't wait for you to revolutionize what AppleTV did years ago.

May 22, 2013#99

strawman

So here's the thing.

Everyone in the industry, except for used game retailers and consumers, want video games to be treated like entertainment. When you go to a broadway performance you can't then share that experience with a friend. They licensed it to you, you experienced it, and if your friend wants to get in on it they want their money as well.

So yes, they, the console manufacturers and video game developers, want to change the structure of console gaming to match that of Steam, iOS, Android, and a bunch of other services that already use this model.

Now you find that steam does this, but you aren't claiming that you'll never use steam. Many people here did purchase the full cost of the latest bioshock knowing that they couldn't sell it or loan it without selling or loaning your full steam account. Many of you have android and iOS devices that are the same way, although the cost difference there is significant, the principle is the same, and at the moment there aren't any really AAA contenders on these devices that could or should command $60 release costs.

Microsoft is willing to take the first step, and they will offer this profit advantage to game developers who only sell exclusive titles for the xbox.

So we're going to find several AAA titles that you can only get if you are willing to buy into this structure.

And people will buy the xbox simply to be able to play their preferred franchises and new games, and while they might complain about it, they'll still do it because they don't want to miss out on the next installment of Halo or that one sports game everyone plays.

Sony is going to have to do the same thing if they want to keep game developers happy.

May 22, 2013#100

Bubble181

Game consoles becoming pcs-with-a-bigger-screen-but-acrappier-place-to-put-your-keyboard is nothing new, and it's the same as how a cellphone - you know, the thing you could talk with to people far away while moving - became a camera, digital agenda, notebook, calculator, e-mail client, handheld game console and e-reader.

Same thing. How can we convince more people to buy our gadget?
A) by making it do more - if our console's a BlueRay player and theirs isn't, people'll buy our instead.
B) By making it an addition to what people are already buying - we can't make people buy a Kinect, but we can put a Kinect in every new XBone and charge'm for it anyway, even if they don't use it!

I'm personally not a fan ofthe do-everything-with-one-box-approach, as it tends to have the great effect that if that one piece of machinery goes kablooie, you're left with nothing at all. On the other hand, for people who do want a media centre, a streaming device, a DVR, a blueray-player, a game console, a camera and Noodle-knows-what-else on their tv, I guess it makes sense.

If I want one machine to do 50 things for me, one of which is gaming, I'll just go and get a pc.

May 22, 2013#101

strawman

BTW, PCs are turning into touchscreen tablets.

:trolol:

May 22, 2013#102

Bubble181

stienman said:
BTW, PCs are turning into touchscreen tablets.

May 22, 2013#103

Shawn

stienman said:
BTW, PCs are turning into touchscreen tablets.

But can they play Mario Brothers?
...
SHUT UP!

May 22, 2013#104

Necronic

I haven't played with the PS3 much, but in my experience Xbox was pretty groundbreaking as a media center, with the 360 beating the Wii like a crippled child. I'm hoping they continue with that, it may well be enough justification for me to buy one.

May 22, 2013#105

Jay

As a Canadian

"Not available in your country"

May 22, 2013#106

Bubble181

stienman said:
https://www.halforums.com/threads/is-your-daughter-pregnant-ask-target.27195/

Y'know, after I read this article, I went about my daily chores, such as leafing through the coupons and stuff we get in the mail everyday. First brochure I open up? Special discounts on condoms and lube, deodorant, hair spray and toothpaste. Second brochure I open? Specials on hand lotion and tissues.

Now, look, I know my girlfriend's going to be out of the country for 4 days, but... Errr....How could you tell from my shopping behaviour? And why does that first store think I'll go cheat on her? :aaah:

May 22, 2013#107

Fun Size

I do have one big question: I went out and bought me a Roku because of Microsoft's asinine policy of forcing me to have a Gold account if I want to stream the services I already pay for, leaving me with the decision to pay for a year of Gold, or pay once for a Roku. If they really want to make this an all-in-one entertainment unit, that's going to have to end.

May 22, 2013#108

strawman

Fun Size said:
I do have one big question: I went out and bought me a Roku because of Microsoft's asinine policy of forcing me to have a Gold account if I want to stream the services I already pay for, leaving me with the decision to pay for a year of Gold, or pay once for a Roku. If they really want to make this an all-in-one entertainment unit, that's going to have to end.

Right. How many middle men are we going to have to pay?

I have a roku, but I'm buying both amazon prime and Netflix. They in turn are paying Viacom, who is paying nickelodeon.

At the end of the chain we have nickelodeon making a fraction of a cent per Dora that my kids watch.

Why can't I just point my roku at them and pay them a few dollars a year, which is more than they're getting from me now, and cut out all these middle men?

The Microsoft streaming option is worse. Microsoft adds absolutely no value to being a middle man. They just know that they currently control your device, therefore they want a cut of the action.

At least Viacom adds value by aggregating several media outlets, and Netflix adds value by providing the actual caching and streaming that makes the videos start almost instantaneously and never buffer.

Blatant money grabs.

I'm really disappointed the Xbox one is a cable box controller with an ir blaster. That's simply so backwards. Those devices have never worked completely, nevermind worked well or seamlessly. They have to keep up to date on every cable provider device and every cable provide channel lineup, and its just stupid.

It's a hack, and a bad one.

The rest of the Xbox one intrigues me, though. Time will tell.

May 22, 2013#109

GasBandit

If the console industry wants to use the "steam" paradigm, it needs to change to steam's price points.

May 22, 2013#110

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
If the console industry wants to use the "steam" paradigm, it needs to change to steam's price points.

Exactly. I will put up with a lot of restrictions for favorable pricing. I think that's completely fair.

May 22, 2013#111

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
If the console industry wants to use the "steam" paradigm, it needs to change to steam's price points.

Damn right. I hate that they charge the same price for the digital copy as the hard copy. That's just insulting.

May 22, 2013#112

strawman

Reading industry tech analysis is interesting. One big point they made, which I noticed, is that they didn't really get into how much better, or worse, of a gaming console this is than previous generations or its competitors.

I suspect we will see a lot more on how it actually performs as a gaming console at e3 and later this year, and that will make the biggest difference in consumer reaction.

May 22, 2013#113

Espy

Good luck with this Microsoft.

May 22, 2013#114

SpecialKO

The maddening thing is how unclear they've been about details like the used games thing.

May 22, 2013#115

GasBandit

I still say it has the formfactor of a betamax player.

May 22, 2013#116

Dave

AHAHAHAHAHA!!

May 22, 2013#117

SpecialKO

I've had a Kinect for years, and this has never ever happened to me. But then, I don't use Hulu Plus, so maybe it's a problem with the app.

That said, I've accidentally paused videos because someone called me on the phone and I was talking loudly while watching Netflix.

May 22, 2013#118

Dave

It's probably faked, but I thought it was funny. It is being used to denigrate the XBox One...and it's not even out yet!

May 22, 2013#119

SpecialKO

Having given it some thought, MS really dropped the ball on not making this a replacement box for a cable/sat box. That's actually something I would pay for (on top of being a gaming console).

As is, I would need to buy a new media entertainment center to put all the damn boxes next to my TV. I live in an apartment, I don't have much room to keep expanding the furniture in my living room. :mad:

May 22, 2013#120

Shakey

SpecialKO said:
Having given it some thought, MS really dropped the ball on not making this a replacement box for a cable/sat box. That's actually something I would pay for (on top of being a gaming console).

As is, I would need to buy a new media entertainment center to put all the damn boxes next to my TV. I live in an apartment, I don't have much room to keep expanding the furniture in my living room.

I'm guessing that's more the cable/satellite companies fault. They're pretty closed off when it comes to their box's. The few attempts at creating a standard for 3rd party companies has failed miserably because they don't want to lose the revenue stream of charging more for DVR's and multiple receivers.

May 22, 2013#121

strawman

There's nothing stopping them from doing that, though. If they sold it to cable providers as a DVR platform with gaming, bluray, and entertainment all built in, they could make significant inroads to the home market simply by way of service based sales. A lot of people already have cable/satellite subscriptions, and they'd gladly pay another $20/month to get this in their living room replacing their cable box rather than a single $500 charge and frustration getting it to work with their existing box.

May 22, 2013#122

Shakey

stienman said:
There's nothing stopping them from doing that, though. If they sold it to cable providers as a DVR platform with gaming, bluray, and entertainment all built in, they could make significant inroads to the home market simply by way of service based sales. A lot of people already have cable/satellite subscriptions, and they'd gladly pay another $20/month to get this in their living room replacing their cable box rather than a single $500 charge and frustration getting it to work with their existing box.

The cable and satellite companies history with Tivo has shown they don't like to be at the mercy of any other company. I'm guessing they wouldn't go along with it even if Microsoft offered one hell of a deal for them. They know it could turn into something the customers will always expect, which makes negotiating future contracts with MS harder. They won't get put in that position again.

May 22, 2013#123

Bubble181

Seems to work fine for the iPhone-for-$1-with-a-2-year-contract plan. People do seem willing to go for it. Pay a monthly premium for a system can work.

May 22, 2013#124

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
Seems to work fine for the iPhone-for-$1-with-a-2-year-contract plan. People do seem willing to go for it. Pay a monthly premium for a system can work.

Right, but the cable/sat companies want to use only their own hardware. That way they get more money, and it's not like the customers can do anything about it. It would be like your cell phone company only allowing cell phones that they themselves made to be used on their network.

May 22, 2013#125

strawman

And until the iPhone came along, that's how the cell phone companies did things.

Apple broke that monopoly by offering something consumers wanted, and making a deal with a lower end carrier.

Microsoft could do the same thing if they had a sufficient carrot.

May 22, 2013#126

AshburnerX

stienman said:
So yes, they, the console manufacturers and video game developers, want to change the structure of console gaming to match that of Steam, iOS, Android, and a bunch of other services that already use this model.

Now you find that steam does this, but you aren't claiming that you'll never use steam. Many people here did purchase the full cost of the latest bioshock knowing that they couldn't sell it or loan it without selling or loaning your full steam account.

Actually, if you live in parts of Europe, you CAN sell your Steam games. Valve is legally required to let people sell their games back in several countries there. There is also an excellent chance that this may become law in parts of the US soon.

May 22, 2013#127

Shakey

stienman said:
And until the iPhone came along, that's how the cell phone companies did things.

Apple broke that monopoly by offering something consumers wanted, and making a deal with a lower end carrier.

Microsoft could do the same thing if they had a sufficient carrot.

They also got to see how much power Apple had over dictating what the carriers could and couldn't do to their customers.

May 22, 2013#128

GasBandit

May 22, 2013#129

Frank

SpecialKO said:
The maddening thing is how unclear they've been about details like the used games thing.

I dunno, Phil Harrison was pretty clear that it's going to be like buying another new copy. Random Xbox Live customer support peon 3 is the one that claimed it was false.

May 22, 2013#130

Gared

Frank said:
I dunno, Phil Harrison was pretty clear that it's going to be like buying another new copy. Random Xbox Live customer support peon 3 is the one that claimed it was false.

Exactly. It's not so much lack of clarity as it is Microsoft completely and utterly failing to appropriately manage their social networking. I imagine what happened was that, before the official press release, all customer-facing Microsoft employees were told to deny EVERYTHING about the console; and management just expected that to work flawlessly and either didn't get the news released to support reps in time for them to revoke that order and switch over to "we will be releasing more info about that before long" on time; or they did get the news out, and some employees just failed to read their emails. It happens. But you can pretty much take Harrison's word as being the correct position on the matter.

May 23, 2013#131

GasBandit

GasBandit said:
To me, really, the Xbox has just been a loathsome diversion for the gaming industry from day one. They killed the mechwarrior PC series so they could have mechassault as an Xbox exclusive. Crimson skies (PC game) sequel? Xbox exclusive, despite it being a flight simulator! W.T.F. And, of course, it bears large responsibility of the consolitis contracted by so many games. Frankly, the console industry is one I have no warm feelings for, but microsoft's adventures in console gaming can't die too soon for my taste, so they can quit undermining PC games.

Whoa, hey, look at that. It's Microsoft admitting they have no interest in PC gaming in pretty much as many words. "Hey, try.. uh.. try the new solitaire! And this game we ported from mobile!"

May 23, 2013#132

Bubble181

I wonder - does MS really want to have people buy an iPad, a PS4 and an Android phone? They're pretty much responsible for everyone having a pc at home - a nd now they seem to actively try and destroy the platform in favour of consoles, phones and tablets.
I'll agree that consumers are probably moving in that direction anyway - any tablet or console these days has more than enough power to do the day-to-day office stuff and webbrowsing most people use their pcs for - but they could at least try to keep the platform viable and interesting to develop for.

May 23, 2013#133

Frank

Quantum Break, the only game in that entire announcement charade that even seemed semi-interesting, by Remedy is a huge burn too especially after learning that all Remedy wanted to do was to make another Alan Wake. Alan Wake was a slow burn new IP, one that didn't do well initially, but had crazy legs and ended up selling over 3 million copies. 3 million. Brand New IP. I forgot that anything but Call of Duty numbers is a failure. They couldn't get any support from any publisher for a sequel.

May 23, 2013#134

SpecialKO

Gared said:
But you can pretty much take Harrison's word as being the correct position on the matter.

Except when he's clarifying things into mud. So is the game always playable with the disk, you just need a license key to install it? Thus, your friend can't play the game without the disk, even if it's installed on his system, because the installation is tied to your Live account which you signed into on his machine? But if you leave him the disk, he can play, but he can't install, and once he gives up the disk, he can't play?

May 23, 2013#135

Frank

Man, I remember some of the dipshit things he said while working for Sony. Then he left to work at Atari and said more dipshit things. Fucking bizarre why any company would want him talking to anyone about anything.

May 23, 2013#136

Gryfter

May 23, 2013#137

GasBandit

Hah, I wasn't the only one saying it looks like a VCR.

May 23, 2013#138

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Hah, I wasn't the only one saying it looks like a VCR.

Hah, I like that it includes the original ~~dreamcast~~ xbox controller.

May 23, 2013#139

Espy

It really is an ugly little thing isn't it? Come on guys, I thought we had figured out industrial design by this point.

May 23, 2013#140

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
Hah, I wasn't the only one saying it looks like a VCR.

Some else thought it looked like an old clock radio

May 23, 2013#141

PatrThom

I still think Straub has the best piss-take so far.

Screen Shot 2013-05-23 at 5.39.35 PM.png

(click image for source)

--Patrick

May 23, 2013#142

Frank

Article about sharing by John Walker of Rock Paper Shotgun.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/23/unlearning-to-share-the-industry-hatred-of-human-nature/[DOUBLEPOST=1369347744][/DOUBLEPOST]http://stevivor.com/2013/05/microsoft-xbox-australia-on-some-of-todays-lingering-xbox-one-questions/

Apparently using the smagical cloud, the Xbone is 40 times more powerful than a 360, without the smagical cloud, it's only 10 times as powerful.

“It’s also been stated that the Xbox One is ten times more powerful than the Xbox 360, so we’re effectively 40 times greater than the Xbox 360 in terms of processing capabilities [using the cloud]. If you look to the cloud as something that is no doubt going to evolve and grow over time, it really spells out that there’s no limit to where the processing power of Xbox One can go. I think that’s a very exciting proposition, not only for Australians, but anyone else who’s going to pick up the Xbox One console.”

Or is it infinitely more powerful?

Man Microsoft and it's mixed messages, amirite?

May 23, 2013#143

Frank

Dumbshit articles like this.

http://www.destructoid.com/pc-gamers-don-t-have-used-games-and-we-re-just-fine-254383.phtml

or Ben Kuchera's

http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...ontrol-of-the-second-hand-market-could-be-the

As if Microsoft in total control of pricing is going to lead to lower prices. That's always the case right? A corporation manages to gain complete control over pricing without any sort of competition and prices go down. That's how it works right?

The first idiot is equating a unified storefront such as XBLA where one company has final control over it to PC gaming where there's choice, be it shitty Origin, less shitty Steam, respectable GoG or the myriad of others. Not the same fucking thing.[DOUBLEPOST=1369351457][/DOUBLEPOST]I wonder how the Xbone's no used feature is going to go over in Europe. They already force Steam to allow people to sell their Steam games in some places there. Or is Mircrosoft just not going to worry about anything but the US (given the feature set, that sounds entirely possible)?

May 23, 2013#144

AshburnerX

They will be forced to let Europeans sell their games and license keys. There really isn't anything they can do about it. It's the law there.

May 24, 2013#145

PatrThom

AshburnerX said:
They will be forced to let Europeans sell their games and license keys. There really isn't anything they can do about it. It's the law there.

Are they releasing the XBone in Europe?

--Patrick

May 24, 2013#146

AshburnerX

PatrThom said:
Are they releasing the XBone in Europe?

--Patrick

Why wouldn't they? If they aren't going to give up on Japan, why would they give up Europe?

May 24, 2013#147

PatrThom

Because Europe doesn't fit their business model. Remember how long the PS2 took to get to S. America?

--Patrick

May 24, 2013#148

Bubble181

If they were to decide not to release in Europe, there'd be a slight bit of a shitstorm over it. I'm not sure even Microsoft can be so blunt as to not release a console in EU. Possibly with severe restrictions, but the game community is too international. Considering the EU makes up a bit over a quarter of the revenue of the game industry (http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry - though this doesn't include some types of phone games and hasn't been updated for last year), I don't think developers would be happy. Say they'd lose 5% of sales on non-exclusives and 15% on exclusives - and that seems to be lowballing it. Even CoD would be classed as a "failure" with 15% less sales (because the industry is stupid that way).

May 24, 2013#149

Frank

http://www.oxm.co.uk/54712/microsof...-360s-sold-and-one-billion-next-gen-consoles/

Yeah, MS Vice pres says they're aiming for A BILLION Xbones to be sold.

May 24, 2013#150

bhamv3

Dear god it's like ET for Atari all over again.

May 24, 2013#151

Frank

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publ...of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137

So apparently, you're going to be able to sell your used to game to a Microsoft pre-approved vendor who will then have PERMISSION to sell the game again at whatever price and Microsoft and whatever publisher gets a cut of the sale.

AWFUL. AWFUL. AWFUL.

No private selling and lending games is fucking tantamount to stealing.

More consumer rights down the fucking toilet.

All this means is that your games are going to be worth less to Gamestop or Best Buy (as if the cuts to MS/Pub are going to come out of their end). As always, less competition means better prices for consumers, right?

Of course, the source of this information is MCV, who are notoriously full of shit.[DOUBLEPOST=1369392695][/DOUBLEPOST]

May 24, 2013#152

Bubble181

Frank said:
http://www.oxm.co.uk/54712/microsof...-360s-sold-and-one-billion-next-gen-consoles/

Yeah, MS Vice pres says they're aiming for A BILLION Xbones to be sold.

A billion next-gen consoles. If this keeps up, that'll be 75 million XBones, 75 million PS4s, 50 millions WiiUs, and 800 million Steam boxes and other

May 24, 2013#153

Shawn

If anyone needs me I'll be playing Super Mario All Stars on the SNES

May 24, 2013#154

strawman

Frank said:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publ...of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137

So apparently, you're going to be able to sell your used to game to a Microsoft pre-approved vendor who will then have PERMISSION to sell the game again at whatever price and Microsoft and whatever publisher gets a cut of the sale.

This is going to go to court.

If they claim that they are only licensing the content to users and that users do not have a right to sell it (first sale doctrine) since it's licensed, not purchased - then they can't turn around and say that users can sell it to a specially licensed vender, who can then sell it to another user.

They can't say "licensed" on one hand and "resalable product" when it suits them.

May 24, 2013#155

Espy

On one hand, I think places like Gamestop are terrible. Oh, can I buy a "used" copy for 3 dollars less than a new one? THANKS GAMESTOP.

On the other hand, I reeeeeeeeaaaaaaally don't like anyone telling me what I can and can't do with something I buy. I bought the game? I will sell it if I damn well feel like it, I will give it to someone if I want or I will simply poop on it and then rub it all over a pigs head if I feel like it.

May 24, 2013#156

Bubble181

Espy said:
On one hand, I think places like Gamestop are terrible. Oh, can I buy a "used" copy for 3 dollars less than a new one? THANKS GAMESTOP.

On the other hand, I reeeeeeeeaaaaaaally don't like anyone telling me what I can and can't do with something I buy. I bought the game? I will sell it if I damn well feel like it, I will give it to someone if I want or I will simply poop on it and then rub it all over a pigs head if I feel like it.

Though, if the latter and it's not an EA game, you may have other issues

Game companies keep trying to convince everyone everywhere they're selling a license, which, with MMOs and othe always-online games where (a part of) the calculations are done serverside, is becoming more and more true, sadly.
However, whenever this bites them in the ass, they try to turn around and claim they sell an as-is product. Nobody's been able or willing to call them out on it yet, we'll see how that goes if or when someone does.
Y'know - if they provide a license to a service, they have several obligations to the clientele - which they aren't honouring at all in many cases.

May 24, 2013#157

strawman

May 24, 2013#158

AshburnerX

Wii U sales up 300% after Xbox One announcement, says Amazon.

May 24, 2013#159

ThatNickGuy

So is Microsoft purposely shooting themselves in the foot to get out of the console market?

May 24, 2013#160

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
So is Microsoft purposely shooting themselves in the foot to get out of the console market?

Seems to me the easier, less expensive way to do that would just be to announce "The 360 was our last console. Sniff you jerks later."

May 24, 2013#161

Azurephoenix

I really think that Microsoft actually believes that they are doing everyone a favour with this new console. Kind of scary actually.

May 24, 2013#162

SpecialKO

I have to admit, without the used/shared game garbage, the only thing I would be annoyed with would be the lack of described games so far.

It's just that the used/shared thing is kind of big. Like one-of-the-biggest-reasons-to-own-a-console big.

Everything else, with the TV/Media shit, is just nice to have, but no one is ever going to buy a console for that.

May 24, 2013#163

AshburnerX

The only... ONLY way I can see this Television integration working for them is if Microsoft gives free Xbox Live to people using the system for cable. People already complain about having to pay Microsoft to use a service they ALREADY pay for (Netflix, Hulu Plus, ESPN) but having to pay ANOTHER $15 a month/$60 a year to watch normal television? Forget about it.

May 24, 2013#164

ScytheRexx

The whole thing frankly bothers me. The used game issue, the size and design, the focus on TV rather then gaming, the required online connection, the fact Kinect will always be staring at me, etc... There is nothing in that system that actually makes me want to buy it, but now multiple things that make me actually want to get rid of it even if someone gave it to me. That's now bad this whole thing went over.

May 24, 2013#165

SpecialKO

ScytheRexx said:
the fact Kinect will always be staring at me, etc

Maybe it's just me, but as a Kinect owner, I don't really care about this one.

Just don't watch porn through your Xbox (per the PA strip above).

May 24, 2013#166

Shakey

SpecialKO said:
Maybe it's just me, but as a Kinect owner, I don't really care about this one.

Just don't watch porn through your Xbox (per the PA strip above).

They've also said there will be a privacy mode so you won't have to worry about it watching you. If you're really paranoid you can always put a towel or something on it.

May 24, 2013#167

Bubble181

...Because an on/off button would've killed them.

That aside -I think they were hoping to be able to actually replace the cable set-top box or satellite decoder. If the XBox could truly function as the one and only box you need to hook up to your tv - it'll stream everything from your pc, it can go on line, you can watch all your tv in HD, you can play blue ray on it - and the price point wasn't too out-of-this-world, I could see a lot of people - even non-gamers - go for it as a good solution.
As is, it's a huge piece of junk. Or a great troll

May 24, 2013#168

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
They've also said there will be a privacy mode so you won't have to worry about it watching you. If you're really paranoid you can always put a towel or something on it.

I shouldn't have to put a towel over it or go through some crazy menu to disable it. They made it out like it won't even work if I decided to remove the Kinect from the system entirely, and that is what bothers me.

SpecialKO said:
Maybe it's just me, but as a Kinect owner, I don't really care about this one. Just don't watch porn through your Xbox (per the PA strip above).

It's not about watching porn, it's the fact I don't want a camera possibly recording me without my permission unless I set up some privacy mode that will likely disable half the functions on the box. There is nothing wrong with Kinect. Making it a MANDATORY part of the system is the problem.

May 24, 2013#169

Azurephoenix

What, you don't like the eye of Sauron watching you with it's lidless gaze? Always watching...

May 24, 2013#170

Bubble181

We're about 85% of the way there for Orwell's 1984. The vision screens in your living room, whereby They can see and hear everything in your home, would pretty much take us all the way there.

Also, it's a MS product. I'm willing to bet there WILL (eventually) be some exploit found to access it remotely. Wait for the very first (Yeah right) porn made by people who don't realize they're being filmed

May 24, 2013#171

ScytheRexx

The "Console War" and how it seems to be going this year in a nutshell.

Seems Nintendo has the right idea about barely doing anything.

May 24, 2013#172

Shakey

ScytheRexx said:
I shouldn't have to put a towel over it or go through some crazy menu to disable it. They made it out like it won't even work if I decided to remove the Kinect from the system entirely, and that is what bothers me.

It's not about watching porn, it's the fact I don't want a camera possibly recording me without my permission unless I set up some privacy mode that will likely disable half the functions on the box. There is nothing wrong with Kinect. Making it a MANDATORY part of the system is the problem.

I figure it's most likely safer than the camera that's built into every laptop. At least you don't need to worry about some virus getting on it and having some random person start watching you.[DOUBLEPOST=1369424209][/DOUBLEPOST]There's even one on every phone now. I don't know why people are freaking out about a camera when they're absolutely everywhere now. Google is getting more information about you from your phone and searches than MS ever could hope to get by having this thing in your house.

May 24, 2013#173

Bubble181

Shakey said:
you don't need to worry about some virus getting on it and having some random person start watching you.

Because there's no way an always-on-line box, with regular, uncontrolled updates, a hard drive where the save games are kept, and plenty and plenty of multiplayer games writing to your HD, will ever have any security loophole, ever - ever! Consoles can and have been infected (mostly the jailbroken ones, of course, but not only).

May 24, 2013#174

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I figure it's most likely safer than the camera that's built into every laptop. At least you don't need to worry about some virus getting on it and having some random person start watching you.

Can you really say that though? Who says an exploit is not found that lets someone do that? Actually, from what I read a "friend" on your skype list can just call you up and load onto the screen without you having to accept the "call". That sounds less secure to me then actually having the ability to accept friend calls on the PC.

At the very least if the camera on the PC bothers me, I can bork the drivers without losing half the functionality of my system and possibly disabling a large amount of games. Not so much on the XBone.

May 24, 2013#175

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
Because there's no way an always-on-line box, with regular, uncontrolled updates, a hard drive where the save games are kept, and plenty and plenty of multiplayer games writing to your HD, will ever have any security loophole, ever - ever! Consoles can and have been infected (mostly the jailbroken ones, of course, but not only).

Consoles are a whole lot more secure than regular PC's, at least they have in the past. We'll see with this one, but the closed nature of them makes it a whole lot harder.

ScytheRexx said:
Can you really say that though? Who says an exploit is not found that lets someone do that? Actually, from what I read a "friend" on your skype list can just call you up and load onto the screen without you having to accept the "call". That sounds less secure to me then actually having the ability to accept friend calls on the PC.

At the very least if the camera on the PC bothers me, I can bork the drivers without losing half the functionality of my system and possibly disabling a large amount of games. Not so much on the XBone.

I seriously doubt they would turn the camera on without you answering the call. I could see the friends video feed popping up saying you have an incoming call, but it won't auto answer for you.

May 25, 2013#176

Frank

Shakey said:
Consoles are a whole lot more secure than regular PC's, at least they have in the past. We'll see with this one, but the closed nature of them makes it a whole lot harder.

I seriously doubt they would turn the camera on without you answering the call. I could see the friends video feed popping up saying you have an incoming call, but it won't auto answer for you.

You say that, but when consoles get compromised, they get compromised on a massive scale. The continuing (and for whatever reason swept under the rug) large scale theft/scamming of people playing Fifa and the massive PSN security failure of a year or two ago is proof of that.

Microsoft isn't immune. Look how easily Hotmail gets compromised.

May 26, 2013#177

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I seriously doubt they would turn the camera on without you answering the call. I could see the friends video feed popping up saying you have an incoming call, but it won't auto answer for you.

Maybe not, and for all I know they take the so called "privacy option" seriously, but I seriously have a hard time trusting them.

May 26, 2013#178

Hailey Knight

I don't even want a PS4 and I'm loving these.

May 26, 2013#179

DarkAudit

May 26, 2013#180

SpecialKO

If those are real, those are fucking awesome, and Sony is bringing the pain.

If they're not real, they're still fucking awesome.

May 26, 2013#181

Espy

Those are fantastic. I hope they are real.

May 26, 2013#182

Ravenpoe

May 26, 2013#183

Hailey Knight

May 26, 2013#184

ThatNickGuy

The saddest thing about the new Xbox is all the TV stuff it does? Smart TVs already do all of it. And without stupid voice command or Kinect.

May 26, 2013#185

Jay

No the saddest thing is that it won't be available "in my area"

May 26, 2013#186

PatrThom

Jay said:
No the saddest thing is that it won't be available "in my area"

Dunno how to break this to you, Jay, but everything isn't always about your "area."

--Patrick

May 26, 2013#187

Jay

Your mum was available "in my area".

May 26, 2013#188

PatrThom

Jay said:
Your mum was available "in my area".

Too bad she got tired of waiting in line and left.

--Patrick

May 26, 2013#189

strawman

May 28, 2013#190

GasBandit

You know, they all crow about how their consoles are becoming more-PC-like, but I think they're taking the aspects of PCs not even PC gamers like. Becoming "more like a PC" as a good thing would entail more versatility, interconnectivity and openness. This sort of thing strikes me as like.. saying a car is more truck-like just because they hid weights inside the chassis to make it heavier, like trucks generally are.

May 28, 2013#191

Covar

E3 is right around the corner they will talk about more than the top 3 franchises (I mean games no one carse about!) on the platform then. Of course any excuse to bitch and moan about the gaming industry amirite!

May 28, 2013#192

Bubble181

Hey, I just saw this as a great opportunity to buy some MS stock. Here's hoping their reveals on E3 will be better and their stock will rebound from this. Of course, it's entirely possible their stock will tank even further as people see the XBone and the PS4 next to each other, but hey, a guess is a guess.

May 28, 2013#193

Espy

I guess the word is now that the PS4 will also have some kind of used game DRM too. I'm not surprised, if one of them is going to do it they all have to I suppose. I'm really curious about this though:
1) Who is pushing for this? The game publishers? The developers? It seems like the console companies are pushing this instead of the people I assume it's really meant to protect (those who make the games).
2) What about renting games? Does that go out the window too?
3) What will major used game retailers do about this? It's already almost pointless to buy a used game. I was at a gamestop to buy Tomb Raider and the used version was 3 whole dollars cheepers! Yay? But will this change their model more so they focus mainly on new games then? Or will they offer some sort of incentive so you don't pay for the same game twice?

May 28, 2013#194

Gilgamesh

After how little I actually jumped into the last console generation, and how the current console generation is looking, it seems instead of buying a console or new/used games (which are always more expensive on console than PC) I'll just spend the money keeping my PC in tip top shape and enjoy all the same games (exclusivity is getting less and less appealing) on my system. With all the mods, graphics updates, patches I can throw a stick at.

May 28, 2013#195

PatrThom

Espy said:
1) Who is pushing for this? The game publishers? The developers?

My guess is that it's either the publishers or the console makers. The developer probably wouldn't care how many platforms carried his/her game (in fact, the more, the better) but the console people want vendor lock-in, and the publishers want to maximize the number of little plastic discs which get sold.

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#196

Espy

I assume you are right, but it seems like the only folks talking about it are the console makers.

May 28, 2013#197

PatrThom

Espy said:
the only folks talking about it are the console makers.

...who (in this case) also happen to be the publishers.

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#198

Espy

True, I suppose thats part of it, that begs a bigger question then, will MicroSony pocket the 34.99 charge to activate my used copy of Tomb Raider or will it go to the people who made the game?

And still, rentals? Will I have to pay a fee to play a rented game? Seems like this move would kill that market completely (Granted it's not huge anyway anymore is it?)

May 28, 2013#199

PatrThom

Espy said:
Will I have to pay a fee to play a rented game? Seems like this move would kill that market completely (Granted it's not huge anyway anymore is it?)

I'm sure what happened is that since games are no longer technically a physical object*, the console people will be more than happy to rent you your game via download through their official channels (and keep the money for themselves) rather than somebody like Blockbuster springing up to get that business (and that money).

--Patrick
*If the consoles require always-on, then there's no real reason they can't be download-only as well, since people who can't download games would be precluded from playing anyway.

May 28, 2013#200

Frank

Covar said:
3) What will major used game retailers do about this? It's already almost pointless to buy a used game. I was at a gamestop to buy Tomb Raider and the used version was 3 whole dollars cheepers! Yay? But will this change their model more so they focus mainly on new games then? Or will they offer some sort of incentive so you don't pay for the same game twice?

That's mainly an issue with newer used games, but what happens if I, someone who likes to play old games, suddenly gets a hankering to play some obscure title from 10 years ago like Way of the Samurai 2 for the PS2? Used is often the only way to get these games. Will the PERMISSION servers to give me PERMISSION to play these games still exist? Will I still have to pay some dumb fucking fee?

May 28, 2013#201

PatrThom

Frank said:
Will I still have to pay some dumb fucking fee?

Probably. I'm sure they're counting on your inability to play those older titles (inaccessibility, failed hardware, turned off activation servers, etc) in order to sell them to you again inside their console-du-jour store.

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#202

Espy

Weird, why is my post quoted by Frank showing up as Covar?

May 28, 2013#203

SpecialKO

I've said this before, but it's not the "console makers" exactly, it's the software publishing arm of the same companies that the console makers are part of. I know it's a fine point, but it's worth considering as people try and suss out motivations.

Espy said:
True, I suppose thats part of it, that begs a bigger question then, will MicroSony pocket the 34.99 charge to activate my used copy of Tomb Raider or will it go to the people who made the game?

Probably some rev-share combo of MicroSony and Square (the publishing side). The studio that made the game is unlikely to see any of that except maybe the top folks who have it written into their contracts.

May 28, 2013#204

PatrThom

Espy said:
Weird, why is my post quoted by Frank showing up as Covar?

Espy , did you accidentally change the member number (like I just did to your quote to Dave's number)?

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#205

Fun Size

First, you're thinking too far into the future. They care about early buyers who play through once and then sell it. Realistically, people like me who don't play a game until I can score the GOTY edition for twenty bucks won't care.

Also, for years the publishers have been clamoring for exactly this kind of scheme, so it really should have been expected. People can piss and moan all they want. They'll cough up the money when their favorite franchise comes out in stunning high-def quality. It's why they can get away with it. It's also why the reveal was all TV all the time. They know the gamers will come around. They want the parent of the next gen of gamers to have a reason to drop a few hundred dollars on this thing.

May 28, 2013#206

Frank

I was gonna quote Covar, but deleted it before quoting Espy, could have confused the poor forum.[DOUBLEPOST=1369755839][/DOUBLEPOST]

Fun Size said:
Also, for years the publishers have been clamoring for exactly this kind of scheme, so it really should have been expected. People can piss and moan all they want. They'll cough up the money when their favorite franchise comes out in stunning high-def quality. It's why they can get away with it. It's also why the reveal was all TV all the time. They know the gamers will come around. They want the parent of the next gen of gamers to have a reason to drop a few hundred dollars on this thing.

Or they won't in the same numbers and we have the dreaded collapse that a lot of people have been predicting is coming. Would probably be for the best.

Nintendo has been all but abandoned (even more than the Wii was) by 3rd parties and they themselves are scrambling for what to do.

May 28, 2013#207

strawman

If you want rights as a gamer, better start lobbying your representatives. Just be aware that gaming companies have far more lobbying dollars than you, and they generate significant economic activity, which is good for the economy, so it'll be a hard sell, convincing lawmakers that game companies should be forced to produce the games you want under the conditions you want, rather than the games that will generate the most revenue, under the terms that will generate the most revenue.

May 28, 2013#208

PatrThom

Frank said:
Or they won't in the same numbers and we have the dreaded collapse that a lot of people have been predicting is coming. Would probably be for the best.

Nintendo has been all but abandoned (even more than the Wii was) by 3rd parties and they themselves are scrambling for what to do.

I think we have a similar thread going about how Adobe is doing this for non-game software as well. This is more about the how we are starting to treat software in general, and less about "gaming."

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#209

SpecialKO

Frank said:
Or they won't in the same numbers and we have the dreaded collapse that a lot of people have been predicting is coming. Would probably be for the best.

I agree on the first part, disagree on the second. I know lots of folks (understandably) want a lot of the existing top dogs to get some financial comeuppance for the way they do business, but a crash will be bad because it will mean a lot less investor money going to gaming projects.

Most new game dev houses, even the hardcore indie ones, don't subsist on consumer money for the first few years of their existence, they subsist on VC funding, and while VCs are used to assuming risk, they do so because they are confident that eventually one of their projects will hit the right market and pay out in a big way. If there is an industry crash, a lot of these guys are going to shy away.

This is why I think the best case scenario is that instead of a crash, we get a shrink. The big guys divest themselves of their baggage and shrink to dev teams around strong core properties, and we see an exodus of talent from those big companies to smaller companies with a better focus. This is what I think you guys actually want anyways, and it's what I'm hoping we're heading towards at this point.

May 28, 2013#210

strawman

It's about time for steam to launch a $42/month all you can eat subscription to their entire game library. Follow Netflix, amazon prime, Hulu.

May 28, 2013#211

PatrThom

Oh hey, what's this?

GAMES CONSOLE MAKER Microsoft's Xbox One could track everything you watch on TV via the machine, a patent application has revealed. Entitled "Awards and Achievements Across TV Ecosystem", the patent was filed by the Redmond firm in 2011 but has only just been published.

Interestingly, the patent refers to a system where users are assigned viewing goals which are then assessed using a variety of methods to make the viewing experience more interactive. Interestingly, the patent refers to a system where users are assigned viewing goals which are then assessed using a variety of methods to make the viewing experience more interactive.
In basic terms, Microsoft would tease you with rewards by getting you to watch programming you don't actually want to but feel compelled by the fact you might receive a gift of sorts in return.

source*
Let the collusion theories begin!

Fortunately, I'm sure we could probably overturn this patent based on Oprah's prior art.

--Patrick
*(Yes, I know it's the Inquirer)

May 28, 2013#212

Frank

Awful.

May 28, 2013#213

AshburnerX

stienman said:
It's about time for steam to launch a $42/month all you can eat subscription to their entire game library. Follow Netflix, amazon prime, Hulu.

The problem with that is deciding who gets a cut and how much.

May 28, 2013#214

BananaHands

[DOUBLEPOST=1369758094][/DOUBLEPOST]

PatrThom said:
Oh hey, what's this?

source*
Let the collusion theories begin!

Fortunately, I'm sure we could probably overturn this patent based on Oprah's prior art.

--Patrick
*(Yes, I know it's the Inquirer)

May 28, 2013#215

Covar

AshburnerX said:
The problem with that is deciding who gets a cut and how much.

That's not to hard for those services. Generally you get a fixed rate per view/listen, which is why the video players are making their push into original programming. The more people who watch House of Cards the less money Netflix has to pay out to studios (more realistically they pay themselves). It might be trickier with gaming because of installations and what exactly you decide to track, but it's not insurmountable, look at GameTap.

May 28, 2013#216

Frank

I don't think Steam could ever pull an all you eat style thing just based on how most publishers would react. You'd either end up with a multiple tier thing where you'd still have to pay for the big name games or you would just not see them on Steam at all.

May 28, 2013#217

strawman

Probably not yet, but steam is becoming somewhat of a juggernaut. If they can build enough leverage they could pull it off.

May 28, 2013#218

PatrThom

Steam is already the iTunes of games. The momentum is there, so as long as they aren't legislated out of business somehow, they should manage to hit that summit eventually.

--Patrick

May 28, 2013#219

GasBandit

Next Gen AI!

May 29, 2013#220

Covar

Crazy Microsoft thinking that people care about or use their console for anything other than gaming

May 29, 2013#221

Frank

You mean people are using Netflix on something, the service that is available on every single piece of technology possible! Shocking. Sell me another console Microsoft so I can watch more Netflix, then charge me to access my Netflix subscription, then take away my rights as a consumer, then spy on me and anyone else who uses it in order to tailor you're god awful advertising to that I pay to have access to. And you know what, while you're at it, make all accessories that work on the 360 inoperable on the One, despite still using USB, everyone who owns an arcade stick or a headset TOTALLY wants to buy them again.

But yeah, you're right on the mark there with the game comments.

May 29, 2013#222

Shakey

Frank said:
You mean people are using Netflix on something, the service that is available on every single piece of technology possible! Shocking. Sell me another console Microsoft so I can watch more Netflix, then charge me to access my Netflix subscription, then take away my rights as a consumer, then spy on me and anyone else who uses it in order to tailor you're god awful advertising to that I pay to have access to. And you know what, while you're at it, make all accessories that work on the 360 inoperable on the One, despite still using USB, everyone who owns an arcade stick or a headset TOTALLY wants to buy them again.

But yeah, you're right on the mark there with the game comments.

I'm just wondering if you realize every single internet company you purchase or view something at tracks your purchases and or viewing habits to tailor ads to you. Netflix, youtube, google, steam, etc. They all track your usage for ads and targeted specials. Why is Microsoft getting run over the coals for something every other company is doing when we don't even know if or how they'll do it yet?

May 29, 2013#223

Gilgamesh

Shakey said:
I'm just wondering if you realize every single internet company you purchase or view something at tracks your purchases and or viewing habits to tailor ads to you.

It's not cool when they do it either.

Shakey said:
Why is Microsoft getting run over the coals for something every other company is doing when we don't even know if or how they'll do it yet?

I think you focused on one of the small issues vs the many bigger issues brought up.

May 29, 2013#224

strawman

Would it still look like a VCR if it were fire engine red?

May 29, 2013#225

Frank

Shakey said:
I'm just wondering if you realize every single internet company you purchase or view something at tracks your purchases and or viewing habits to tailor ads to you. Netflix, youtube, google, steam, etc. They all track your usage for ads and targeted specials. Why is Microsoft getting run over the coals for something every other company is doing when we don't even know if or how they'll do it yet?

Those all don't track what my heart-rate is when I watch certain thing or when I'm smiling or as many other things Microsoft has mentioned it's always on Kinect can do. That shit is gross. It crosses a line and like Gilgamesh posts, it's only a part of the entire disgusting package.

Do people want Microsoft watching their kids this way?

May 29, 2013#226

Shakey

Gilgamesh said:
It's not cool when they do it either.

I think you focused on one of the small issues vs the many bigger issues brought up.

Right, but I don't hear anyone bitching about them. That's my point.

Frank said:
Those all don't track what my heart-rate is when I watch certain thing or when I'm smiling or as many other things Microsoft has mentioned it's always on Kinect can do. That shit is gross. It crosses a line and like Gilgamesh posts, it's only a part of the entire disgusting package.

Do people want Microsoft watching their kids this way?

I haven't heard anyone say they were going to track that sort of thing. People are assuming a whole lot of things just because it's possible. Think of all the things that can be tracked with your cell phone? Has that stopped you from using one? Where do you think all those ads from google come from? Or facebook?

They have said it's possible, which would be a good thing for fitness games to take advantage of. They could speed up the moves or slow them down to keep the user at the target heart rate. They have never said they will track your facial expressions or heart rate and use it to track what you like and don't like.

May 29, 2013#227

Gilgamesh

Shakey said:
Right, but I don't hear anyone bitching about them. That's my point.

Sure you do, it's always an uproar when it first happens.

May 29, 2013#228

Frank

No, but combine this:

http://bgr.com/2013/05/28/xbox-one-kinect-sensor-rewards/

With:

The new Kinect can see in the dark, pick out human voices in a noisy living room and read your heartrate just by looking at your face.

And you don't think they might use these in tandem, probably while claiming they don't, at least until they are caught doing so?

There is no benefit to us in assuming they'll do the right thing and being quiet about it until we find out exactly how low they're willing to go. If we assume the worst now, be loud and vocal to them about it, let them know exactly what we don't want before all this shit is set in stone, let it shape their decision (even if it's in the smallest way possible) we, as consumers, may end up with a better shake of the stick.

Being non-vocal does people no favours.

May 29, 2013#229

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I'm just wondering if you realize every single internet company you purchase or view something at tracks your purchases and or viewing habits to tailor ads to you. Netflix, youtube, google, steam, etc. They all track your usage for ads and targeted specials. Why is Microsoft getting run over the coals for something every other company is doing when we don't even know if or how they'll do it yet?

Tracking what video I am watching on Netflix is NOT the same as the Kinect camera turning off a movie because I have too many friends in the room, all the while tracking your heart rate to figure out how angry it makes you.

To compare to a more real world example.

When I get groceries, the computer register at the store may compile what I bought and give me a coupon for something else I may like. That is simple product data gathering and frankly I don't have much of a problem with that.

Kinect though, is more like the clerk himself follows you around the store, watching how I pick up the groceries, how angry that chunky woman blocking the lane makes me, writes down how many times I scratch my ass, or how often I travel through the sweets isle. It's more invasive.

I posted before but Microsoft has patents to use the Kinect to shut down movies when too many people are watching them or charge a fee per extra person.. For this tech to work the Kinect system always has to be on in some way, and even though they talk of "privacy" settings, they also talk about how Kinect will ALWAYS be on in some form to allow boot up voice commands. Thus even when the console is off, Kinect will still be on in some form.

How anyone can defend this is beyond me.

May 29, 2013#230

Shakey

Frank said:
No, but combine this:

http://bgr.com/2013/05/28/xbox-one-kinect-sensor-rewards/

With:

And you don't think they might use these in tandem, probably while claiming they don't, at least until they are caught doing so?

No, I don't. It sounds like some sort of advanced Nielsen box. Most likely something you would have to opt in to, especially since it's rewards based.

May 29, 2013#231

Covar

Amazon filed a patent on tiny airbags in your phone that will deploy when dropped. Currently Amazon has produced zero phones, and no device has such airbags.

And if you want to freak out about grocery store shopping cards consider this, stores sell the information they gather in addition to using it for their own ordering purposes. Theoretically they could sell your information to your insurance providers who would then adjust/raise your rates based on your eating habits.

May 29, 2013#232

Gared

Shakey said:
No, I don't. It sounds like some sort of advanced Nielsen box. Most likely something you would have to opt in to, especially since it's rewards based.

You never have to opt in to Microsoft product features... with the exception of paid services. You always, always have to opt out.

May 29, 2013#233

Shakey

Covar said:
Amazon filed a patent on tiny airbags in your phone that will deploy when dropped. Currently Amazon has produced zero phones, and no device has such airbags.

And if you want to freak out about grocery store shopping cards consider this, stores sell the information they gather in addition to using it for their own ordering purposes. Theoretically they could sell your information to your insurance providers who would then adjust/raise your rates based on your eating habits.

Verizon also already has a patent to monitor people watching tv with video and sound sensors to tailor ads to what's going on in your house.

All of these patents are just that, patents. Most likely they had a group brainstorm ideas on how this system could tailor advertising and they threw out a bunch of patents so they would have them. The joys of our patent system...

Until I see proof that any of this is going to happen, I'm not going to rage about it.

May 29, 2013#234

Gilgamesh

Shakey said:
Until I see proof that any of this is going to happen, I'm not going to rage about it.

-Until they do it and it's too late to do anything about it, I will not get upset!-

May 29, 2013#235

Shakey

Covar said:
And if you want to freak out about grocery store shopping cards consider this, stores sell the information they gather in addition to using it for their own ordering purposes. Theoretically they could sell your information to your insurance providers who would then adjust/raise your rates based on your eating habits.

The frequent customer rewards programs are all run by pretty much one company, not the store you buy from. If you really want to be freaked out, imagine all the information they have on you. Especially since facebook signed a data sharing deal with them. It's supposedly anonymous, but they have enough data to match people so it doesn't matter.[DOUBLEPOST=1369836419][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:
-Until they do it and it's too late to do anything about it, I will not get upset!-

Of course, you could always not have it in your house. There's enough competition that they'll have to be careful. Especially with low cost android gaming consoles being made.

May 29, 2013#236

ScytheRexx

Covar said:
Amazon filed a patent on tiny airbags in your phone that will deploy when dropped. Currently Amazon has produced zero phones, and no device has such airbags.

So basically because they might not use the patent, we should just accept the system and move on? That sounds like a great way to go. SOLD! I am buying six of them now!

And if you want to freak out about grocery store shopping cards consider this, stores sell the information they gather in addition to using it for their own ordering purposes. Theoretically they could sell your information to your insurance providers who would then adjust/raise your rates based on your eating habits.

I already said, I don't really mind people keeping a database of what I buy. Do I dislike it? Yes, but they are not being as invasive and watching me do stuff. I draw the line when something can physically watch me and my child playing in the living room all the while still doing all the database junk, or even using said feature to tell me what I can and can't do in the safety of my own home.

Verizon also already has a patent to monitor people watching tv with video and sound sensors to tailor ads to what's going on in your house.

Which is one of the reasons I refuse to use Verizon.

May 29, 2013#237

Gilgamesh

Shakey said:
Of course, you could always not have it in your house. There's enough competition that they'll have to be careful. Especially with low cost android gaming consoles being made.

As I said earlier, I have zero interest in consoles, especially this new gen coming. I'm quite happy being part of the PC Master Race.

That said, I also don't care about personal information being shared, and already said that this is such a small part of what I think is wrong with the console. I'm more impressed with how poorly they're handling used games, forcing online check-ins and charging extra fees for everything. Mostly to stop -piracy-. Which it won't.

May 29, 2013#238

Shakey

Gilgamesh said:
As I said earlier, I have zero interest in consoles, especially this new gen coming. I'm quite happy being part of the PC Master Race.

That said, I also don't care about personal information being shared, and already said that this is such a small part of what I think is wrong with the console. I'm more impressed with how poorly they're handling used games, forcing online check-ins and charging extra fees for everything. Mostly to stop -piracy-. Which it won't.

Well, I was more responding to the others that do have a big problem with being tracked. I just don't get it. I guess we'll see when it comes out. They've said there'll be a privacy option, but we won't know all the details until it comes out.

I probably won't buy the console either. Mainly because I'm not much of a gamer, I play WoW and that's pretty much it. I would actually be interested in it for what it can offer in a media box, as long as an xbox membership isn't required.

As for used games, it's been a long time coming. Game publishers have pretty much killed the used and rental options for PC's, so they're going to go after consoles next.

May 29, 2013#239

Azurephoenix

Shakey said:
The frequent customer rewards programs are all run by pretty much one company, not the store you buy from. If you really want to be freaked out, imagine all the information they have on you. Especially since facebook signed a data sharing deal with them. It's supposedly anonymous, but they have enough data to match people so it doesn't matter.

It seems there is a world of difference between having spending information or internet activity compiled versus being actively spied upon in the privacy of your own home.

Theres is no way I'm getting one of these monstrosities. Good job Microsoft.

May 29, 2013#240

GasBandit

May 29, 2013#241

Frank

Shakey said:
I probably won't buy the console either. Mainly because I'm not much of a gamer, I play WoW and that's pretty much it. I would actually be interested in it for what it can offer in a media box, as long as an xbox membership isn't required.

Fat chance on the membership thing.

May 29, 2013#242

Fun Size

Just to double check, you've all disabled the little cameras at the top of your laptops as well, right? Because they can totally watch you as well.

May 29, 2013#243

Shakey

GasBandit said:

Try sharing that movie, song, or book you downloaded. They'll get there too.

May 29, 2013#244

Frank

Shakey said:
Try sharing that movie, song, or book you downloaded. They'll get there too.

We're not talking about digital downloads, we're talking about physical media.[DOUBLEPOST=1369838358][/DOUBLEPOST]

Fun Size said:
Just to double check, you've all disabled the little cameras at the top of your laptops as well, right? Because they can totally watch you as well.

Mine doesn't even have drivers.

May 29, 2013#245

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
Mine doesn't even have drivers.

Ditto

Guess what? You can't do that on the XBone. Removing the Kinect system disables the console.

May 29, 2013#246

GasBandit

Fun Size said:
Just to double check, you've all disabled the little cameras at the top of your laptops as well, right? Because they can totally watch you as well.

My laptop physically closes, and then the camera isn't much good.

May 29, 2013#247

Shakey

Azurephoenix said:
It seems there is a world of difference between having spending information or internet activity compiled versus being actively spied upon in the privacy of your own home.

Theres is no way I'm getting one of these monstrosities. Good job Microsoft.

Which is weird, because it's more than just internet activity and spending information. It's your emails, your texts, your location, the shops you stop at, the ones you pass up, where you meet your friends to hang out at, where you are planning to vacation at, what routes you take home and to work, where you work, how long you work, what you watch and when. All this could and probably most of it already is compiled by google. And that isn't invasive at all. Compared to what I do in front of my tv or watch.

May 29, 2013#248

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
Which is weird, because it's more than just internet activity and spending information. It's your emails, your texts, your location, the shops you stop at, the ones you pass up, where you meet your friends to hang out at, where you are planning to vacation at, what routes you take home and to work, where you work, how long you work, what you watch and when. All this could and probably most of it already is compiled by google. And that isn't invasive at all. Compared to what I do in front of my tv or watch.

All of which can be disabled (either through the phones, or if they are idiots, then through a third party app), and disabling does not disable the phone. As for some of that, well, this is why I don't text or get involved in Facebook.

May 29, 2013#249

Shakey

ScytheRexx said:
All of which can be disabled (either through the phones, or if they are idiots, then through a third party app), and disabling does not disable the phone. As for some of that, well, this is why I don't text or get involved in Facebook.

How do you know it's really going to be disabled? MS has said there would be a privacy option, and that's written off as they'll probably track you anyways.

May 29, 2013#250

Frank

Off the privacy concerns, while Nintendo and Sony have both said that indie devs will be allowed to self-publish (and I know Sony at least has dropped the fees for updating or patching indie games on PSN), Microsoft does this:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...blishing_problem_is_bigger_than_it_sounds.php

Basically telling indie devs to go fuck themselves or get in bed with a big publisher.

Considering how bitter so many indie devs seem to be at Microsoft already (just listen to the Fez guy, Jonathan Blow or the Super Meat Boy guys talk about the joys of working with Microsoft) their continued hardline stance is kind of baffling.

May 29, 2013#251

Azurephoenix

Shakey said:
Which is weird, because it's more than just internet activity and spending information. It's your emails, your texts, your location, the shops you stop at, the ones you pass up, where you meet your friends to hang out at, where you are planning to vacation at, what routes you take home and to work, where you work, how long you work, what you watch and when. All this could and probably most of it already is compiled by google. And that isn't invasive at all. Compared to what I do in front of my tv or watch.

My television where the Xbone would theoretically go is in our great room and would have not only a spectacular view of that room but because of the open concept it would see the kitchen, dining area and kids playroom too.

Also, I don't need the Halbox9000 watching me get it on with my wife on the couch.

You are far too trusting of a giant faceless corporation that exists purely to make money.

ScytheRexx said:
All of which can be disabled (either through the phones, or if they are idiots, then through a third party app), and disabling does not disable the phone. As for some of that, well, this is why I don't text or get involved in Facebook.

Hitting the nail on the head my friend.

May 29, 2013#252

Fun Size

GasBandit said:
My laptop physically closes, and then the camera isn't much good.

Kinect can be physically turned towards the wall. Same theory.

I know that everyone's basic instinct is to build vast conspiracies about such things, but this seems like a huge furor over very little information thus far.

May 29, 2013#253

Shakey

Azurephoenix said:
My television where the Xbone would theoretically go is in our great room and would have not only a spectacular view of that room but because of the open concept it would see the kitchen, dining area and kids playroom too.

Also, I don't need the Halbox9000 watching me get it on with my wife on the couch.

You are far too trusting of a giant faceless corporation that exists purely to make money.

It's not that I'm trusting. I'm just not going to freak out and start throwing out rumors that the new xbox will spy on me 24x7. Let's just wait until they tell us a little more about it, and see what it actually does at release, before we label it as some huge invasion of privacy.

May 29, 2013#254

Frank

Shakey said:
It's not that I'm trusting. I'm just not going to freak out and start throwing out rumors that the new xbox will spy on me 24x7. Let's just wait until they tell us a little more about it, and see what it actually does at release, before we label it as some huge invasion of privacy.

That's just the whole Xbone shebang right there isn't it.

They let out a tiny bit of information, some of it contradicting, then put up the TBA wall.

May 29, 2013#255

strawman

May 29, 2013#256

Shakey

Frank said:
That's just the whole Xbone shebang right there isn't it.

They let out a tiny bit of information, some of it contradicting, then put up the TBA wall.

Which could be because it's so early. A lot of the policies and decisions haven't been made yet. So a lot of people guess, or say what they've heard, and people take it as being written in stone. When it's really just ideas being thrown around.

May 29, 2013#257

Frank

Shakey said:
Which could be because it's so early. A lot of the policies and decisions haven't been made yet. So a lot of people guess, or say what they've heard, and people take it as being written in stone. When it's really just ideas being thrown around.

Yeah, but that's why it's the best time to be vocal. If the policies aren't set in stone, tell them not to set the shitty parts in stone before they do.

May 29, 2013#258

Shakey

Frank said:
Yeah, but that's why it's the best time to be vocal. If the policies aren't set in stone, tell them not to set the shitty parts in stone before they do.

Which is fine, and a good idea. It's just hard to take people seriously when the feedback ends up being something like "Screw the Xbone and screw microsoft. This is a shitty console and I'm not letting this near my house." All you get from that is there is no pleasing that person and no matter what they do they won't buy it, so why try to please them.

May 29, 2013#259

strawman

I wonder how many people here are as concerned about their phones with the camera, audio, location, and other feeds that can be used just as maliciously as they describe Microsoft is certainly going to use the Xbox one.

Phones which are also controlled by giant, faceless corporations whose only motive is allegedly pure greed and anti-consumerism.

I am an engineer. I applaud companies that go out on a limb and introduce new hardware with unlimited possibilities, even if some of those possibilities are bad. Then they let the users and publishers decide what the possibilities actually are.

Companies respond to pressure after the fact. When apples iphone wifi location data was found to be a usable, people stood up and demanded they change it, and they did. This was within a month or two of the new iOS release that contained this feature. It wasn't being used for user tracking, but it could have been, and so they made changes so that it couldn't be used for that.

Saying, "I'm concerned about the bad things this _could_ be used for" is one thing. Spreading rumors and lies about how Microsoft "obviously" plans to use it to invade your privacy is entirely different.

I simply don't see the point in attacking a new product for what it can possibly do when there's no evidence that it actually does that. Yes, they have a patent and now a box that can enforce viewer limits for content providers. But are they doing that?

Can't we have a little less guilty before proven innocent but you'll always suspect that they aren't quite as innocent as they proved themselves to be?

Until they actually start slaughtering babies, can't we have a little more perspective?

I can guarantee you they will never stream images or audio from the Xbox one to the Internet without your explicit permission, due to possible child protection violations. They simply can't afford a class action lawsuit, nevermind the horrible press it would incur, if they were ever to do so.

There a already significant protections we have from laws in the US, and they aren't going to be making special operating systems for other countries that break US laws. They might make special version the get rid of features Americans have due to local laws, but you can think of US law as a minimum bar all the Xbox one consoles will pass.

So, you know, chill.

It's a piece of technology that has as much chance of violating your privacy as your laptop, your cell phone, or any other Internet connected device with cameras and microphones you might have lying around.

May 29, 2013#260

AshburnerX

Frank said:
Off the privacy concerns, while Nintendo and Sony have both said that indie devs will be allowed to self-publish (and I know Sony at least has dropped the fees for updating or patching indie games on PSN), Microsoft does this:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...blishing_problem_is_bigger_than_it_sounds.php

Basically telling indie devs to go fuck themselves or get in bed with a big publisher.

Considering how bitter so many indie devs seem to be at Microsoft already (just listen to the Fez guy, Jonathan Blow or the Super Meat Boy guys talk about the joys of working with Microsoft) their continued hardline stance is kind of baffling.

The patching and update fees are an issue with the big devs too. Konami has already said that the reason the 360 version of the Silent Hill HD Collection is in such an unplayable state is because they aren't willing to pay 10k just to put out a patch. They literally let people exchange the game for another Konami game (from a list) because it would be cheaper to ship out thousands of free games than it would be to pay Microsoft to put out the update.

stienman said:
I can guarantee you they will never stream images or audio from the Xbox one to the Internet without your explicit permission, due to possible child protection violations. They simply can't afford a class action lawsuit, nevermind the horrible press it would incur, if they were ever to do so.

Actually, if you have XBox Live (be it Silver or Gold), you've already signed away your right to enter a class action suit against Microsoft in regards to issues with your Xbox. It's in the EULA. You HAVE to go to arbitration if you have an issue and we all know how well that works in the US.

It all came about because of the PSN hacking thing that happened last year.

May 29, 2013#261

ScytheRexx

stienman said:
I simply don't see the point in attacking a new product for what it can possibly do when there's no evidence that it actually does that. Yes, they have a patent and now a box that can enforce viewer limits for content providers. But are they doing that?

Why do we have to wait for them to do the crime before we can call them out on it? Should I let the drifter in my house because he seems like a nice guy and then worry about him slashing up my family later?

The fact is, filing the patent means they have intent to use it. They may never use it, for all we know, but the intent exists, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the patent. They have made it so "disabling" Kinect can not be done. They talk about "privacy setting" but never strait up say you can remove Kinect from the system, and they have pointed out that unplugging it will DISABLE the XBox. If it's not important or can be "turned off" why does it disable the system? Why do they praise how the system can be turned on with a voice command? That implies Kinect is always going to be on in some form.

Also, stop bringing up phones and laptops. Neither phones or laptops force me to use the camera to utilize the darn system. All of those can be disabled without hurting the main functions for why I got the system in the first place. Bringing it up is just trying to redirect the issue to something that is not at all comparable. Turning the camera around is also an annoying redirect, I shouldn't HAVE to turn it around just to play a game, I should be able to unplug it entirely.

All this whole thing has done is turned me off to getting the system at all. So at this point it's moot for me. I will not give Microsoft my money, and my only hope is enough other people do the same that such "innovations" don't happen again.

May 29, 2013#262

strawman

AshburnerX said:
Actually, if you have XBox Live (be it Silver or Gold), you've already signed away your right to enter a class action suit against Microsoft in regards to issues with your Xbox. It's in the EULA. You HAVE to go to arbitration if you have an issue and we all know how well that works in the US.

It all came about because of the PSN hacking thing that happened last year.

That can be dismissed in court for certain things. Criminal acts wouldn't necessarily be class action anyway. If Microsoft was found to be violating a child privacy law, they would be held accountable to a given state or to the federal government. The states might band together to form a class action, but since they never agreed to the Eula it doesn't matter.

The subsequent class action lawsuit to pay those that were affected by the criminal act might or might not be thrown out based on the Eula, but I doubt that a judge would say the Eula trumps criminal law for pain, suffering, defamation, etc.

All the Eula does is provide limited protection for Microsoft for civil suits users might bring up, and even then the Eula claise may still be dismissed for a particular case, or in a particular state, depending on a variety of factors.

May 29, 2013#263

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:

To be fair, all of those industries would totally love to stop you also. They just don't yet have the technology to do so.

May 29, 2013#264

Gared

AshburnerX said:
Actually, if you have XBox Live (be it Silver or Gold), you've already signed away your right to enter a class action suit against Microsoft in regards to issues with your Xbox. It's in the EULA. You HAVE to go to arbitration if you have an issue and we all know how well that works in the US.
It all came about because of the PSN hacking thing that happened last year.

While this is true, Stienman's point still holds up. As much hell as I'll happily give Microsoft over consumer policies, support offerings, horrible design ideology, and piss poor PR management; they are extremely involved in the effort to eradicate the sexual exploitation of minors in general, and child porn specifically. And, while I can't give out specifics (some NDA's never expire), I can say that they're serious enough about it that they coordinate with all of their rival companies, and have very active relationships with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), and with just about every level of law enforcement around the world, and they use those relationships very, very frequently. One of my former team members used to be the NCMEC contact - until she moved to take up an IT position in a remote part of the US, partially because the mandatory weekly counseling sessions that came with her position weren't enough anymore.

May 29, 2013#265

Covar

ScytheRexx said:
The fact is, filing the patent means they have intent to use it. They may never use it, for all we know, but the intent exists, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the patent.

That's hilarious. Patents have a value just on their existence, and a filing of a patent in no way means that a company plans to implement it. That's like claiming brokers love drinking Coke-a-cola because they make purchase in it's stock.

May 29, 2013#266

strawman

ScytheRexx said:
Why do we have to wait for them to do the crime before we can call them out on it? Should I let the drifter in my house because he seems like a nice guy and then worry about him slashing up my family later?

The fact is, filing the patent means they have intent to use it. They may never use it, for all we know, but the intent exists, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the patent. They have made it so "disabling" Kinect can not be done. They talk about "privacy setting" but never strait up say you can remove Kinect from the system, and they have pointed out that unplugging it will DISABLE the XBox. If it's not important or can be "turned off" why does it disable the system? Why do they praise how the system can be turned on with a voice command? That implies Kinect is always going to be on in some form.

Also, stop bringing up phones and laptops. Neither phones or laptops force me to use the camera to utilize the darn system. All of those can be disabled without hurting the main functions for why I got the system in the first place. Bringing it up is just trying to redirect the issue to something that is not at all comparable.

Coming up with ways a company might invade your privacy is mental masturbation.

When you tell me how to disable my iPhone camera that doesn't also apply to the kinect, then I'll believe they are different. Until then I recognize that I'm carrying around a device which could be, but isn't, used to spy on me. If I choose to buy an Xbox one, then I'll have to recognize that I have a device in my living rom that can, but doesn't, spy on me.

In either case, I still have a choice to buy it and plug it in, or not.

We can't even get one in our hands for months. We have no idea what it's going to have on it, other than games, apps and TV, and that it has hardware capabilities similar to an Xbox 360 with a kinect peripheral. We know that it will not perform some of its functionality with the kinect disconnected.

They will, however, have accessibility features that allow you to use it without the kinect, simply for those people that can use a controller but can't talk or hear, or those with limited mobility that prevents them from gesturing appropriately.

I'm quite certain you'll be able to turn the kinect around, or hide it behind a door and only have it pointing your way when you want it to, while still being able to use the majority of the system functionality, except for those games that require the kinect. If you don't want to be spied on, don't play DDR type games. Or don't buy the system at all.

I hear Toyota is coming out with a new car next year. Boy is it fuel efficient! It can kill more people per gallon than their last car, so we should really start complaining about this increased fuel efficiency which allows more deaths per gallon than the old model!

It's ridiculous.

I'm excited about the possibilities this new technology can bring to my entertainment experience, and we've got two or three people here who will NEVER be happy with it, and swamp the thread with cynical, negative commentary that has absolutely NO value. None.

Yes, we get it. It will end privacy in our living rooms as we know it. It will force us to pay more money for our games and movies. Our Netflix is going to cost more. It will send videos of our exercise workouts, complete with jiggling man breasts, to funnordie.com and ratemymoobs.com without my permission. It will kick the puppy, who will love it all the same despot the abuse.

Sure, it plays games, TV, and you don't have to look for YET ANOTHER STUPID REMOTE to change the channel or select a movie from your instant queue.

It'll be able to more accurately calculate your exercise calorie usage and your yoga poses by being able to track your heart rate, and balance on your two feet without clunky battery eating pads or straps.

It'll enable 3D video calling if someone stretches a little and creates an app for that, and it'll use less bandwidth than current 2D video calling because it can model and send 3D object information rather than 1080p30 video down the wire.

It can act as a security system. It can limit your child's TV watching and game playing time based on the child's face, including limiting what movies they can watch, without clunky codes you have to use when you want to break out of child mode.

But who cares about all that because obviously Microsoft is going to skip straight to stripping you of all your privacy and will sell your secrets to... Uh... Someone. Who needs to know what your heart rate was during that one scene in arrested development. Because then they can... Uh... I don't know. Sell you stuff? Make shows that are more entertaining?

I mean, what, exactly, is going to personally harm you? Assuming, that is, that you actually take one of these into you sacred dwelling?

The anger and hatred displayed in this thread is blind, and therefore automatically displaced and useless.

You might as well be tilting at windmills.

May 29, 2013#267

ScytheRexx

Covar said:
That's hilarious. Patents have a value just on their existence, and a filing of a patent in no way means that a company plans to implement it. That's like claiming brokers love drinking Coke-a-cola because they make purchase in it's stock.

Some patents are bullshit, and designed specifically feed on others that want those patents. I don't see Microsoft as the type of company to put through patents for those purposes, and instead putting through patents for technology they may actually use in the future. We can agree to disagree in the end, but I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt and just go with technology that I find stupid.

I mean really, simple fix. Let us unplug the Kinect system. Done. How easy is that? The fact they DON'T allow this is a telling fact.

May 29, 2013#268

strawman

ScytheRexx said:
my only hope is enough other people do the same that such "innovations" don't happen again.

You might as well be Amish.

I hate that a few people raise such a fuss about the infinitesimally small possibilities of negative outcomes that they actively hold back new technology and progress because they're worried about possible abuses.

Fortunately I don't think this will be the case for the Xbox, and quite frankly the kinect is amazing technology that will eventually impact how we interact with computers nearly as much as the multi touch display did.

Technological Luddites notwithstanding.

May 29, 2013#269

Shakey

ScytheRexx said:
I mean really, simple fix. Let us unplug the Kinect system. Done. How easy is that? The fact they DON'T allow this is a telling fact.

It could also be that they need to be able to tell the devs that yes, every unit will have a functioning kinect unit. That way they are able to design a game around the use of it and not have to worry about people that might not have it.

The Wii U also has a camera and microphone, but it's physically built into the unit. You can't unplug it either.

I'm not going to try to convince you to buy it, you have your mind made up. That doesn't mean that MS is doing something crazy here and has sinister motives. It's just the way electronics are progressing.

May 29, 2013#270

GasBandit

I have to admit, this does seem to be a privacy concern easily addressed with a post-it note.

May 29, 2013#271

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
I have to admit, this does seem to be a privacy concern easily addressed with a post-it note.

It's a secret plot so when M$ buys 3M, they'll make millions selling post-it notes to block their own devices.

May 29, 2013#272

ScytheRexx

stienman said:
I hate that a few people raise such a fuss about the infinitesimally small possibilities of negative outcomes that they actively hold back new technology and progress because they're worried about possible abuses.

Then don't allow those abuses. I have nothing wrong with Kinect, don't put words in my mouth like I think Kinect is the mark of the damn beast.

I find everything wrong with the idea I can't disable it", and that Microsoft has constantly danced around the wording of it to say "privacy setting" will be open with one mouth and then saying it will "always be on, always allowing you to boot up." with the other. Added with the patent info going out, why should I expect to just trust them at face value? Because the TECH is cool? I find drones pretty cool too, I don't really find them cool when someone uses them to look through my window.

At this point I am bowing out of this. I don't appreciate being insulted about my love of technology because I don't trust a mega-corp and the way they are handing some camera that must "always be plugged in, even when not required".

May 29, 2013#273

SpecialKO

Actually, what would stop Microsoft from buying one of the 3rd-party accessory companies just to make clip-on Kinect lens blockers?

May 29, 2013#274

Frank

stienman said:
You might as well be Amish.

I hate that a few people raise such a fuss about the infinitesimally small possibilities of negative outcomes that they actively hold back new technology and progress because they're worried about possible abuses.

Fortunately I don't think this will be the case for the Xbox, and quite frankly the kinect is amazing technology that will eventually impact how we interact with computers nearly as much as the multi touch display did.

Technological Luddites notwithstanding.

You see it as innovative, I can more agree with Leigh Alexander's take off being exactly the opposite.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192709/Opinion_Xbox_One_is_a_desperate_prayer_to_stop_time.php

May 29, 2013#275

strawman

Game consoles that can see you and the environment are simply more functional, and have inherent abilities that can enhance the experience.

There are some experiences a console simply cannot, nor ever will be able to, provide. And if putting the kinect behind a door in your entertainment center, or placing a small cardboard box on it is too much trouble to preserve your privacy, then I'd suggest that either you don't value your privacy enough to employ boxes and doors (might as well remove the bathroom doors while you're at it) or the value the console provides in other areas doesn't trump the small amount of labor you have to do to protect your privacy.

Neither situation really makes much logical sense to me.

I'm not buying it because its going to be too expensive.

If they provide excellent video calling capabilities, then I might consider it if I can convince my relatives to buy into such a system as well.

But beyond that I'm just not in the market for what will probably be released as a $500+ machine. I simply wouldn't get out of it what I invest into it.

However I'm still excited for what it means across a variety of industries. It's a platform for many neat technologies and capabilities, and if its hack able then we'll see amazing new uses for it we simply can't fathom right now. It's not groundbreaking, but the kinect hardware upgrade alone is worthwhile, and e fact that its being mass manufactured means it'll be relatively cheap compared to other similar hardware.

You're going to see students experience ting more with automated vehicles. More virtual reality stuff. Imagine a warehouse filled with people wearing oculus rift displays, and hundreds of high resolution kinects around the warehouse. You actually walk, run, and jump, the kinects track you, and the software changes your environment in subtle ways so you never run into another person, but you exist in the same virtual world, and experience more of the feeling of actually being in that environment because your body is actually sensing all the same movements and experience the vr headset is giving your eyes.

We can't do that know without millions of dollars of equipment. But throw in a few thousand for xbox machines, and a few hundred hours of code hacking, and you've got an entirely new thing.

May 29, 2013#276

Covar

SpecialKO said:
Actually, what would stop Microsoft from buying one of the 3rd-party accessory companies just to make clip-on Kinect lens blockers?

I'd wager it's not worth their time/money to absorb and manage when it's not core business. Besides if it does well enough they would just make an official one, they already make accessories for their consoles.

May 29, 2013#277

figmentPez

GasBandit said:

You're missing the part where the music industry pitched a fit when people started ripping their CDs to MP3 for personal use, and tried to make that illegal. How the movie and TV industry pitched a fit when people wanted to use VCRs to time shift broadcasts, and tried to make that illegal. And how the printing industry is still pitching a fit over online used book sales, and wants to make that illegal.

The game industry is not alone in trying to restrict how their customers use their product. Remember DivX (the disc format, not the video codec) that came out alongside DVD and would have made movie "purchases" just a two-week long rental? Remember when a company created DVDs that reacted to the air such that once you opened the package they became unreadable in ~48 hours? Or when publishers sued people for reselling textbooks purchased in a foreign market?

May 29, 2013#278

Bubble181

stienman said:
But beyond that I'm just not in the market for what will probably be released as a $500+ machine. I simply wouldn't get out of it what I invest into it.

Pre-release sale price in Europe is €600 - about $780 by current conversion. Which I'm surprisied no-one has whined about - I think it's bloody expensive, and I'm fairly confident I can build a computer capable of running high-end games for less.

May 29, 2013#279

DarkAudit

Or how the RIAA pitched such a fit that DAT was a stillborn format?

May 29, 2013#280

Gilgamesh

figmentPez said:
You're missing the part where the music industry pitched a fit when people started ripping their CDs to MP3 for personal use, and tried to make that illegal. How the movie and TV industry pitched a fit when people wanted to use VCRs to time shift broadcasts, and tried to make that illegal. And how the printing industry is still pitching a fit over online used book sales, and wants to make that illegal.

The game industry is not alone in trying to restrict how their customers use their product. Remember DivX (the disc format, not the video codec) that came out alongside DVD and would have made movie "purchases" just a two-week long rental? Remember when a company created DVDs that reacted to the air such that once you opened the package they became unreadable in ~48 hours? Or when publishers sued people for reselling textbooks purchased in a foreign market?

Correct, and they all failed because of public backlash. Which is why the outcry and backlash now is so important.

May 29, 2013#281

Frank

Bubble181 said:
Pre-release sale price in Europe is €600 - about $780 by current conversion. Which I'm surprisied no-one has whined about - I think it's bloody expensive, and I'm fairly confident I can build a computer capable of running high-end games for less.

Those prices are a cover-ass guess. No one yet knows what they'll cost.

May 29, 2013#282

strawman

Frank said:
You see it as innovative, I can more agree with Leigh Alexander's take off being exactly the opposite.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/192709/Opinion_Xbox_One_is_a_desperate_prayer_to_stop_time.php

I like how he says "entertainment alter" a dozen times, evoking the idea that people who buy big TV sets and create a space to watch them are of a religious order he has finally broken free from.

And since he has made that change in his life, then he can't see the value of the Xbox one, which is really only for those who still subscribe to the entertainment altar.

In other, completely unrelated news, only 53 million LCD tvs sets were sold in the first three months of this year. Over half of those were larger than 35", and the 40" and up TV market is growing fastest due largely to price decreases for larger TV sets.

Fortunately Leigh watches his entertainment on a high resolution 10" iPad display, and that's the way he likes it, so the rising generation must be the same, and this must be the death throes of an entire industry.

I'm concerned he might have a somewhat limited perspective, but hey, if we're only going to move 200 million new tvs into homes this year, maybe we are watching the collapse of the entertainment alter.

I just doubt it. Slightly.

May 29, 2013#283

figmentPez

ScytheRexx said:
Kinect though, is more like the clerk himself follows you around the store, watching how I pick up the groceries, how angry that chunky woman blocking the lane makes me, writes down how many times I scratch my ass, or how often I travel through the sweets isle. It's more invasive.

Watching how you move around the store, you say? How Nordstrom [Used] WiFi To Spy On Shoppers

Nordstrom says they've stopped doing this, after public outcry, but they're not the only company taking advantage of a cellphone's WiFi signal to track your movements throughout a store. Granted, camera software can do the same thing, but I imagine WiFi tracking takes less computing power.

It's really a minor thing, and is news only because people are unaware that their phone blasts out a signal that can be easily tracked. However, it does show just how hungry companies are for data collection, and that it's important that we consider what should be private and what should be public. In an era when a great deal can be told about a person's health just with a video camera (heart rate, perspiration, etc.) it's time to re-think what data should be allowed to be collected about us without our consent. Just because we're in public, or have invited a device into our home, should not mean we've given consent to monitor our vital signs or otherwise acquire personal data that used to require physical contact.

May 29, 2013#284

Frank

stienman said:
I like how he says "entertainment alter" a dozen times, evoking the idea that people who buy big TV sets and create a space to watch them are of a religious order he has finally broken free from.

And since he has made that change in his life, then he can't see the value of the Xbox one, which is really only for those who still subscribe to the entertainment altar.

In other, completely unrelated news, only 53 million LCD tvs sets were sold in the first three months of this year. Over half of those were larger than 35", and the 40" and up TV market is growing fastest due largely to price decreases for larger TV sets.

Fortunately Leigh watches his entertainment on a high resolution 10" iPad display, and that's the way he likes it, so the rising generation must be the same, and this must be the death throes of an entire industry.

I'm concerned he might have a somewhat limited perspective, but hey, if we're only going to move 200 million new tvs into homes this year, maybe we are watching the collapse of the entertainment alter.

I just doubt it. Slightly.

It's a she.

Sexist.

May 29, 2013#285

Azurephoenix

stienman said:
Coming up with ways a company might invade your privacy is mental masturbation.

When you tell me how to disable my iPhone camera that doesn't also apply to the kinect, then I'll believe they are different. Until then I recognize that I'm carrying around a device which could be, but isn't, used to spy on me. If I choose to buy an Xbox one, then I'll have to recognize that I have a device in my living rom that can, but doesn't, spy on me.

In either case, I still have a choice to buy it and plug it in, or not.

We can't even get one in our hands for months. We have no idea what it's going to have on it, other than games, apps and TV, and that it has hardware capabilities similar to an Xbox 360 with a kinect peripheral. We know that it will not perform some of its functionality with the kinect disconnected.

They will, however, have accessibility features that allow you to use it without the kinect, simply for those people that can use a controller but can't talk or hear, or those with limited mobility that prevents them from gesturing appropriately.

I'm quite certain you'll be able to turn the kinect around, or hide it behind a door and only have it pointing your way when you want it to, while still being able to use the majority of the system functionality, except for those games that require the kinect. If you don't want to be spied on, don't play DDR type games. Or don't buy the system at all.

I hear Toyota is coming out with a new car next year. Boy is it fuel efficient! It can kill more people per gallon than their last car, so we should really start complaining about this increased fuel efficiency which allows more deaths per gallon than the old model!

It's ridiculous.

I'm excited about the possibilities this new technology can bring to my entertainment experience, and we've got two or three people here who will NEVER be happy with it, and swamp the thread with cynical, negative commentary that has absolutely NO value. None.

Yes, we get it. It will end privacy in our living rooms as we know it. It will force us to pay more money for our games and movies. Our Netflix is going to cost more. It will send videos of our exercise workouts, complete with jiggling man breasts, to funnordie.com and ratemymoobs.com without my permission. It will kick the puppy, who will love it all the same despot the abuse.

Sure, it plays games, TV, and you don't have to look for YET ANOTHER STUPID REMOTE to change the channel or select a movie from your instant queue.

It'll be able to more accurately calculate your exercise calorie usage and your yoga poses by being able to track your heart rate, and balance on your two feet without clunky battery eating pads or straps.

It'll enable 3D video calling if someone stretches a little and creates an app for that, and it'll use less bandwidth than current 2D video calling because it can model and send 3D object information rather than 1080p30 video down the wire.

It can act as a security system. It can limit your child's TV watching and game playing time based on the child's face, including limiting what movies they can watch, without clunky codes you have to use when you want to break out of child mode.

But who cares about all that because obviously Microsoft is going to skip straight to stripping you of all your privacy and will sell your secrets to... Uh... Someone. Who needs to know what your heart rate was during that one scene in arrested development. Because then they can... Uh... I don't know. Sell you stuff? Make shows that are more entertaining?

I mean, what, exactly, is going to personally harm you? Assuming, that is, that you actually take one of these into you sacred dwelling?

The anger and hatred displayed in this thread is blind, and therefore automatically displaced and useless.

You might as well be tilting at windmills.

Wow... and you're accusing me of anger, hatred and vitriol? I actually think the kinect itself is fascinating. The old one could be used for amazing applications outside of the xbox 360 (I had a friend and I rig one up to do rough motion capture for 3D models... it was incredible how decent the motion capture could be from something like that).

I don't like the always on always integrated new kinect and the possibilities it introduces sitting in my room connected to my media system. As a seperate piece of technology though? Fascinating.

May 29, 2013#286

GasBandit

May 29, 2013#287

AshburnerX

It's doubtful Sony is going to have DRM at this point, or at least nothing very restricting. Why do I say this? This exchange on twitter.

Shuhei Yoshida @yosp
"Death Ray Manta" coming to PlayStation Vita! #DRMPSVita http://www.inquisitr.com/678568/death-ray-manta-blasting-its-way-to-playstation-vita/ …

Shahid Kamal Ahmad @shahidkamal
@yosp That’s right Shuhei, we are going to have “DRM” on PlayStation Vita. ;-)

Those are Sony executives joking about DRM in the open. Ether they know it's not going to be so severe/nonexistent or they are going to be out of a job in a few days.

May 29, 2013#288

PatrThom

stienman said:
I hate that a few people raise such a fuss about the infinitesimally small possibilities of negative outcomes that they actively hold back new technology and progress because they're worried about possible abuses.

It's a bit like Chekov's Patent, really. I see only one of two(-ish) possible applications for this patent.
1) Microsoft intends to use this patent at some point (in some way) to get in our personal business/mine us for info and is therefore evil.
2) Microsoft is actually concerned about our privacy and preemptively took out this patent intending to never use it, instead planning to sue anyone else who tries it to shut them down and therefore MS is good.
2b) Microsoft doesn't care about the ethical implications of doing such a thing, they just want to own the ability to do so and therefore MS is just opportunistic.

Gilgamesh said:
Correct, and they all failed because of public backlash. Which is why the outcry and backlash now is so important.

I'm sure MS knows all about backlash, and in reality they probably are hesitant to take full advantage of everything the console could do for them, I'm just not convinced they have the good sense not to try and glean a little something under the radar (Like Google, Apple, Yahoo, and any other data-heavy business currently do). Like an actual gun, the malice of the event will be defined more by the intent behind the action than the action itself.

--Patrick

May 29, 2013#289

SpecialKO

PatrThom said:
It's a bit like Chekov's Patent, really. I see only one of two(-ish) possible applications for this patent.
1) Microsoft intends to use this patent at some point (in some way) to get in our personal business/mine us for info and is therefore evil.
2) Microsoft is actually concerned about our privacy and preemptively took out this patent intending to never use it, instead planning to sue anyone else who tries it to shut them down and therefore MS is good.
2b) Microsoft doesn't care about the ethical implications of doing such a thing, they just want to own the ability to do so and therefore MS is just opportunistic.

1b) Microsoft is trying to keep bars and other establishments from using an Xbox to show paid content (like PPV/premium sports) without buying a group license. This seems the most likely case.

May 29, 2013#290

figmentPez

AshburnerX said:
It's doubtful Sony is going to have DRM at this point, or at least nothing very restricting. Why do I say this? This exchange on twitter.

Those are Sony executives joking about DRM in the open. Ether they know it's not going to be so severe/nonexistent or they are going to be out of a job in a few days.

I know that we're talking about always-on internet connection type DRM, but I really want to note that all the consoles have some form of DRM, and have since the days of the NES. Just because it's mostly unobtrusive, and doesn't usually get noticed beyond region locking, doesn't mean that it's not present.

May 29, 2013#291

strawman

PatrThom said:
I see only one of two(-ish) possible applications for this patent.

Or the most likely possibility: someone had the idea, wrote up the patent info internally, and they patented it because it was patentable.

There are many, many, many patents MS, Apple, Google, IBM, Xerox come up with and submit because the cost, for them, to do so is so little, and if it's something they think might have any value in the future, they patent it.

In fact, many of these companies offer rewards to employees who go to the trouble of getting a patent for the company, regardless of the applicability to the current products the company produces. There are millions of "dead" patents that were obtained merely for the employee compensation in the software, automotive, aerospace, and other STEM fields.

Microsoft isn't doing to well in content distribution right now, so I honestly don't see them using it anytime soon. If it were amazon, netflix, apple, or even google, maybe. I suppose MS could offer this as part of the netflix or amazon streaming apps, but it's still likely years away due to negotiation. In order to make it work, several entities have to meet repeatedly to hammer out a whole series of contracts to solidify the chain and manage the resulting profits. And if someone isn't willing to pay the various middlemen for making this happen, then it's simply not going to happen.

May 29, 2013#292

Shakey

I have a feeling they'll go back on the used game deal a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it to something like being able to use a game for 7 days before you're locked out of it unless you pay the fee. That would give the used game market something to work with at least, and let people borrow a game to their friends.

It's all speculation still though. I'm sure we'll get a lot more info at E3.

May 30, 2013#293

Bubble181

I can also imagine them holding this patent mostly just to make sure. Not out of the goodness of their heart, but to prevent anyone else from hoarding all the monies or however you say it these days.
I can easily see a fitocracy-style game or Wii-fit-style thing giving you bonus points for everything you do in the living room, even without having to log in, turn the machine on, select the app, blahblahblah. Who knows, it could be something new and great. *now* we think it's an invasion of privacy, in 5 years' time, we'll be saying how awesome and revolutionary it is. MS has seen plenty of start-up markets pass them by while happily using their hard- or software (such as many of the "other" uses Kinects have already been put to). If and when people drop their privacy issues in favor of ease-of-use and gadgetry, as we always do in the end, at least they've got a finger in the pie.

May 30, 2013#294

strawman

Bubble181 said:
MS has seen plenty of start-up markets pass them by while happily using their hard- or software (such as many of the "other" uses Kinects have already been put to).

I'm cynically wondering if this is another reason they're requiring the kinect for every xbox one. They limit the free supply, and if you want a kinect you either have to order a replacement part (rather than an accessory), or buy a whole xbox.

On the other hand, it may be that they couldn't make this newer, better kinect and sell it for under $100, so by bundling it with the cost of the whole console it's easier to swallow for users that wouldn't buy it for $150.

May 30, 2013#295

AshburnerX

stienman said:
On the other hand, it may be that they couldn't make this newer, better kinect and sell it for under $100, so by bundling it with the cost of the whole console it's easier to swallow for users that wouldn't buy it for $150.

It's more likely they are putting it in the standard kit so that devs will actually do something with it. It's sort of why most games don't have PlaystationMove support or why virtually no games use the analog stick accessory on the 3DS: developing a game to use these features heavily will severely limit your market, because the only people who can play your game are people who bought an accessory at a premium. This is a VERY basic rule of consoles and most people don't seem to get it.

The only reason the 360 had so many Kinect games on the 360 is because Microsoft was covering some of the costs of production. This let companies build crap on the cheap that they could sell, while pocketing most of the development money for use in future products.

May 30, 2013#296

strawman

I wasn't saying that my reasons were the main reason, or even significant on the whoe scheme of things. Just that they may have contributed toward the decision.

May 30, 2013#297

Covar

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/no-the-xbox-one-did-not-cause-sonys-stock-to-surge

May 30, 2013#298

GasBandit

Man, I hate that horrible goddamn font PA Report uses.

Jun 6, 2013#299

Frank

Microsoft has opened their mouths about their policies now.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/main

Honestly, most of what I've read is repulsive and solidifies my opinion. If Sony's policies are similar, I'm done with consoles.

Jun 6, 2013#300

Cheesy1

Screw this generation of consoles.

Jun 6, 2013#301

Gilgamesh

Frank said:
Microsoft has opened their mouths about their policies now.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/main

Honestly, most of what I've read is repulsive and solidifies my opinion. If Sony's policies are similar, I'm done with consoles.

TLDR. Short version?

Jun 6, 2013#302

Frank

Gilgamesh said:
TLDR. Short version?

It's not all that long.

Buy the way you want—disc or digital—on the same day: You’ll be able to buy disc-based games at traditional retailers or online through Xbox Live, on day of release. Discs will continue to be a great way to install your games quickly.

Access your entire games library from any Xbox One—no discs required: After signing in and installing,you can play any of your games from any Xbox One because a digital copy of your game is stored on your console and in the cloud. So, for example, while you are logged in at your friend’s house, you can play your games.

Share access to your games with everyone inside your home: Your friends and family, your guests and acquaintances get unlimited access to all of your games. Anyone can play your games on your console--regardless of whether you are logged in or their relationship to you.

Give your family access to your entire games library anytime, anywhere: Xbox One will enable new forms of access for families. Up to ten members of your family can log in and play from your shared games library on any Xbox One. Just like today, a family member can play your copy of Forza Motorsport at a friend’s house. Only now, they will see not just Forza, but all of your shared games. You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time.

Trade-in and resell your disc-based games: Today, some gamers choose to sell their old disc-based games back for cash and credit. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers. Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games.

Give your games to friends: Xbox One is designed so game publishers can enable you to give your disc-based games to your friends. There are no fees charged as part of these transfers. There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once.

Jun 6, 2013#303

AshburnerX

Gilgamesh said:
TLDR. Short version?

They confirmed most everything that everyone thought.

- You can share each game ONCE.
- Used game sales are on the publishers to activate. Because publishers are pushing for this anyway, this means 99% won't.
- You have to connect your One to the net once every 24 hours or you console bricks until you connect it. People with shit connections, military members are fucked. Or everyone, if the Microsoft servers go down (they will).

The only remotely cool thing they said today is that up to ten members of your family can play games you own and place in a shared account, but they haven't said much about how this works except to say that it won't be up at launch (so they probably shouldn't have said ANYTHING).

They had better have the best god damn exclusives in the world or they are fucked.

Jun 6, 2013#304

Necronic

Still better than the Wii U. And aside from the items Ashburner mentioned that list doesn't look too bad.

The whole idea of sharing games is a tricky one these days. People want the whole disc-free method of playing. You don't get that and then get to trade games willy nilly. And sure, you can quit consoles to avoid that. Then you can go to computers where.....oh wait this is how computers have worked for ages.

Jun 6, 2013#305

Shawn

Frank said:
It's not all that long.

I'm actually rather relieved by these claims. Is there something that I'm missing that makes it not as reasonable as it seems?
Basically they are saying you can play your games any time/any where, so long as you can log into your cloud. Sounds great. I don't see the problem with that personally. Certainly makes it easier for me to show up at a friend's place and say "Hey. Would you like to play any of the games from my library?". Sounds pretty reasonable and convenient. No need to carry your entire library of discs with you because you can access it on your friend's xbox one just as easily.
Now to the part about sharing your games with friends/families: what's the issue? It says you absolutely can share with your family and to at least one friend. Now here is a question, what keeps you from claiming additional friends are just part of your family?

Jun 6, 2013#306

Necronic

If we allow non-family friends to be family it will weaken the biblical meaning of family.

Jun 6, 2013#307

Jay

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578534

Jun 6, 2013#308

Gilgamesh

I'm still laughing at the fact that they think this will deter pirating/hacking of their console, which in all honesty, is the majority of their decisions on these system ideas.

Jun 6, 2013#309

Frank

Shawnacy said:
I'm actually rather relieved by these claims. Is there something that I'm missing that makes it not as reasonable as it seems?
Basically they are saying you can play your games any time/any where, so long as you can log into your cloud. Sounds great. I don't see the problem with that personally. Certainly makes it easier for me to show up at a friend's place and say "Hey. Would you like to play any of the games from my library?". Sounds pretty reasonable and convenient. No need to carry your entire library of discs with you because you can access it on your friend's xbox one just as easily.
Now to the part about sharing your games with friends/families: what's the issue? It says you absolutely can share with your family and to at least one friend. Now here is a question, what keeps you from claiming additional friends are just part of your family?

It says you can share it, with one friend, once, as long as he's been on your friends list for 30 days. Fuck that control nonsense.

Or you can sell it to someone, as long as he's been on your friends list for 30 days or to an officially recognized Xbox Microsoft retailer. Awful.

All those options you do like, the 10 person thing etc, are all said to be not available at launch too.

Jun 6, 2013#310

Cheesy1

Is it wrong that I wish I could sit in on the board meetings of Microsoft or Sony a year or two after launch just so I can see their bewilderment when it all blows up in their faces?

Jun 6, 2013#311

Frank

Jay said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578534

A dollar says Polygon gets to keep theirs.

Jun 7, 2013#312

Frank

Share access to your games with everyone inside your home: Your friends and family, your guests and acquaintances get unlimited access to all of your games. Anyone can play your games on your console--regardless of whether you are logged in or their relationship to you.

This fucking gets my gall so fucking hard. This is one of the most disgusting pieces of trash PR speak corporate anti-consumer bullshit condescending nonsense that's ever been put out.

WOW, OTHER PEOPLE THAN ME CAN PLAY MY GAMES ON MY CONSOLE!

FUCKING THANKS MICROSOFT! THANKS FOR YOUR PERMISSION!

Jun 7, 2013#313

figmentPez

"Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners."
http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-games-can-only-be-given-to-one-person-ever-511754913

I'm pretty sure GameFly saw this coming, but I'm betting they're scrambling desperately to try to work something out.

Jun 7, 2013#314

AshburnerX

figmentPez said:
"Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners."
http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-games-can-only-be-given-to-one-person-ever-511754913

I'm pretty sure GameFly saw this coming, but I'm betting they're scrambling desperately to try to work something out.

The only way it would work out is if GameFly started paying the pubs/devs when people rent their games... which is kinda bullshit.

Jun 7, 2013#315

Terrik

I think he's going to have a heart attack.

Jun 7, 2013#316

Covar

Frank said:
This fucking gets my gall so fucking hard. This is one of the most disgusting pieces of trash PR speak corporate anti-consumer bullshit condescending nonsense that's ever been put out.

WOW, OTHER PEOPLE THAN ME CAN PLAY MY GAMES ON MY CONSOLE!

FUCKING THANKS MICROSOFT! THANKS FOR YOUR PERMISSION!

You know if people weren't losing their shit over things Microsoft (sorry Micro$oft) hadn't felt the need to comment on they wouldn't have to explicitly state the obvious. The fact that there were a ton of dumbasses on the internet assuming that all the games would be tied to a single live account means that yes believe it or not they have to state otherwise.

Jun 7, 2013#317

Shakey

How is this any different than what Steam does?

Jun 7, 2013#318

Covar

Shakey said:
How is this any different than what Steam does?

SHHH!!

Jun 7, 2013#319

Dave

Shakey said:
How is this any different than what Steam does?

With Steam, the program is on your computer and it can only be played at one point and time. The Xbox thing means that even though you go to the store and purchase a game, you are subjected to the arbitrary rules set forth by M$. And the facial recognition means that even when you buy the game and are sitting in the living room with your brother, you have to basically ask permission to share the controller and take turns. God forbid you also have a friend over! And when you are done with the game and want to turn it in for store credit? Sorry, but M$ can't get their cut so they won't allow it. Fucking bullshit. It's like Ford telling you who you can sell your car to when you buy a new one.

Bottom line is I was going to buy one of these for my son for Christmas. He's a big Xbox guy and I thought he'd like it. There's no way I'm wasting my money doing that now. Either I'll get him a PS4 or he'll keep playing that old Xbox 360.

Jun 7, 2013#320

Shakey

Dave said:
With Steam, the program is on your computer and it can only be played at one point and time. The Xbox thing means that even though you go to the store and purchase a game, you are subjected to the arbitrary rules set forth by M$. And the facial recognition means that even when you buy the game and are sitting in the living room with your brother, you have to basically ask permission to share the controller and take turns. God forbid you also have a friend over! And when you are done with the game and want to turn it in for store credit? Sorry, but M$ can't get their cut so they won't allow it. Fucking bullshit. It's like Ford telling you who you can sell your car to when you buy a new one.

Bottom line is I was going to buy one of these for my son for Christmas. He's a big Xbox guy and I thought he'd like it. There's no way I'm wasting my money doing that now. Either I'll get him a PS4 or he'll keep playing that old Xbox 360.

When did they say any of that would happen? Last I heard as long as you're logged in with your live account, it doesn't matter who's playing it. They also said there will be a way to resell your games, but it will have to be through their system, not independently. I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Steam.

Jun 7, 2013#321

strawman

Dave said:
With Steam... you are subjected to the arbitrary rules...when you are done with the game and want to turn it in for store credit? Sorry...

I'm sorry, what's the difference again?

Jun 7, 2013#322

Reverent-one

Shakey said:
They also said there will be a way to resell your games, but it will have to be through their system, not independently.

No, they said that publishers will have the abilty to allow you to resell your games, but they make no guarantee the publisher will choose to do so. Moreover, for games sold between friends, they limit the max number of times you can do it.

Jun 7, 2013#323

Shakey

stienman said:
I'm sorry, what's the difference again?

M$ will actually let you resell them or give them to your friend. Seems like this system is a lot more forgiving than Steam is.[DOUBLEPOST=1370614188][/DOUBLEPOST]

Reverent-one said:
No, they said that publishers will have the abilty to allow you to resell your games, but they make no guarantee the publisher will choose to do so. Moreover, for games sold between friends, they limit the max number of times you can do it.

And how is this worse than Steam again? There is a way to sell them again, like you said it's up to the publisher though.

Jun 7, 2013#324

Reverent-one

Shakey said:
And how is this worse than Steam again? There is a way to sell them again, like you said it's up to the publisher though.

Like Dave said, Steam doesn't sell you a physical object and then place a bunch of restrictions on what you can do with it. Notice that the complaints generally aren't about these restrictions on digital downloads.

Jun 7, 2013#325

ThatNickGuy

With Steam, there's never been a question of how it works. And very few people used it at first. It wasn't until they started doing the Steam sales and independent game support that it really took off. And honestly, it's the sales, I think, that make it okay. If you get the games dirt cheap in the first place, you don't feel nearly as screwed over. And I never understood the idea of "used digital games" because it's digital. There's nothing "used" about it.

The other difference is that Steam has restrictions on digital copies. Microsoft is trying to the same thing with PHYSICAL copies.

Also, Steam doesn't scan you and your room all the time with a webcam.

Jun 7, 2013#326

Krisken

Shakey said:
M$ will actually let you resell them or give them to your friend. Seems like this system is a lot more forgiving than Steam is.[DOUBLEPOST=1370614188][/DOUBLEPOST]
And how is this worse than Steam again? There is a way to sell them again, like you said it's up to the publisher though.

The comparison is false. Steam is a program through which you buy games for your computer, which can run other games that you can buy from other sources in physical form should you choose and can be sold as you choose without the computer company putting restrictions on it, or even the company who made the game for that matter. You're trying to make it sound like this is actually better than Steam, which provides games often at huge discounts of their retail price (something Microsoft games almost never do).

Putting perfume on this turd isn't making it smell any sweeter.

Jun 7, 2013#327

Dave

Shakey said:
When did they say any of that would happen? Last I heard as long as you're logged in with your live account, it doesn't matter who's playing it. They also said there will be a way to resell your games, but it will have to be through their system, not independently. I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Steam.

You have a physical disk. You want to sell it to a friend. You can't. Not without going to MS and asking their permission. Then, if THAT friend wants to sell it...he can't. Only transferable once. It's different than Steam because it's a physical entity, not a digital copy of a non-physical item. I buy it, I own it, I should be able to do with it whatever the hell I want.

I want to sell my car I sell it without contacting the auto industry.

I want to sell my bike I sell it without contacting Schwinn.

I want to sell my computer I do so without contacting Dell.

The game is a physical disk that I bought from a store. I'm not leasing it. I'm not borrowing it. I fucking OWN it. If I want to sell it it's my prerogative. Or at least it was before corporate greed.

And when did they say this would happen? Their own website talks about the changes such as the 24 hour internet check - no internet? No Game. Default Kinect is always on, recording everything. But you can turn it off in privacy settings...not that everyone will know that.

This system is fucking stupid and I hope it bombs terribly, but too many people are way too cavalier about giving up more and more to corporate and governmental agencies and they damned well know it.

Jun 7, 2013#328

strawman

The xbox one puts some of the freedom consumers used to have and puts it into the hands of the publishers, who are free to choose whether and how to limit people's freedom with their products.

People are understandably upset. They wish microsoft wouldn't give publishers the choice, and would instead support consumer choice.

Perhaps this will hurt their system. Perhaps this is the reason they released so much information so early, so people could get it out of their system before they wowed people and brought them back on board with the game offerings. Who knows.

I don't think the system will fail or flop, though.

But I will point out the hypocrisy of those who say they won't buy into such a system when they've already bought into steam, where things are essentially the same. The only difference is that steam has a lower entry fee since most people already have a computer, and so no initial console purchase is required.

Those who do not want the publishers to have a choice on game redistribution are probably going to have to learn to love the Wii U, since PC gaming and most console gaming appears to be going to a single user license model without inherent resale rights.

We're going to have the same fight over video entertainment in the next few years when studios stop releasing physical media and only distribute video online through approved services.

Jun 7, 2013#329

Shakey

Reverent-one said:
Like Dave said, Steam doesn't sell you a physical object and then place a bunch of restrictions on what you can do with it. Notice that the complaints generally aren't about these restrictions on digital downloads.

So just because the data is delivered to you by a disc rather than through the internet it's different? The disc has zero value itself. What gives it value is the game on it. That's what you're wanting to sell. How it's delivered shouldn't matter, especially since they're all the same price. So if you're going to complain about MS not allowing you to resell that game, why not complain about Steam?

Jun 7, 2013#330

Krisken

Shakey said:
So just because the data is delivered to you by a disc rather than through the internet it's different? The disc has zero value itself. What gives it value is the game on it. That's what you're wanting to sell. How it's delivered shouldn't matter, especially since they're all the same price. So if you're going to complain about MS not allowing you to resell that game, why not complain about Steam?

Because no one (smart) is spending $60 for a game on Steam.

Jun 7, 2013#331

ThatNickGuy

Shakey said:
So just because the data is delivered to you by a disc rather than through the internet it's different? The disc has zero value itself. What gives it value is the game on it. That's what you're wanting to sell. How it's delivered shouldn't matter, especially since they're all the same price. So if you're going to complain about MS not allowing you to resell that game, why not complain about Steam?

Wrong. OH wrong wrong wrong wrong.

The disc has value because, guess what? I do whatever I want with that disc. I can lend it to a friend. I can sell it to a friend or to Gamestop if I choose. IF I CHOOSE. Some people, like myself, have a limited income for gaming. I only currently own four physical PS3 games, two of which are recent purchases. The rest? I traded them in for credit so I could pick up other games to play. And that's my right because when I bought the physical copy of the game, I had that right.

I remember being PISSED that I couldn't re-sell Half-Life 2 because of how it was registered to Steam and such. But now? I threw out the discs because I have it digitally on Steam. Steam's sales very much ease the "pain" of not being able to sell them back. Plus, I can carry those games over to any PC that I own. Only one PC at a time, but it's technically reverse compatible. That won't be the case with Xbox One.

Jun 7, 2013#332

strawman

Dave said:
The game is a physical disk that I bought from a store.

No. Legally the game is the bits encoded on the disc, and while you are licensed a representation of them on that disc, you do not own the bits, nor the right to redistribute them.

However, like a book, you can redistribute the representation.

However you find many games, even on physical discs in the store, come with a single use code. Sure, you can sell the disc, but it's useless without the code, and if you've redeemed it you have to sell your account in order to actually transfer the game.

Go ahead and find a way to buy Bioshock Infinite, play it, and then sell it. You can't, even though you may have chosen to purchase a physical disc. All games are tending toward this model, PC, console, etc.

In fact this should be trickling down to the next generation of handheld game consoles soon.

Bottom line: if the game isn't worth the price, don't buy it.

Seriously. Don't buy the console if reselling and sharing your games is primary to your gaming experience. Don't buy the game if reselling and sharing is crucial to your entertainment lifestyle.

You'll find, however, that those who share your extreme game style are very few in number.

Most people, probably 80-90% of gamers, enjoy the used and sharing market, but will not stop gaming if that market goes away.

Which means these consoles aren't going to flop, and that publisher are going to latch onto them, and that rental and resale shops and services are going to change or die.

Jun 7, 2013#333

Shakey

I guess being a PC person I accepted a long time ago that the software and games I bought were for one person to use, whether it came on a disk or not. Try reselling that windows 7 disk, or that skyrim disk, or that Photoshop disk. It just doesn't work because they all require activation. The disk itself is the delivery medium, not the item itself.

Jun 7, 2013#334

strawman

Shakey said:
I guess being a PC person I accepted a long time ago that the software and games I bought were for one person to use, whether it came on a disk or not. Try reselling that windows 7 disk, or that skyrim disk, or that Photoshop disk. It just doesn't work because they all require activation. The disk itself is the delivery medium, not the item itself.

You've been lulled into a complacency! Break free of your chains, brother, and rise up against the console makers!

It's probably the secondary reason this doesn't bother me - I'm used to it in the PC world, and I'm fine with publishers selling me an item I can't resell - if it's not worth it, I don't buy it, and if I buy it I get my money's worth out of it. Reselling would be icing on the cake, but wouldn't change my buying habits. The primary reason is that I'm not a console gamer. This should bother me more, though, because I don't believe we've ever purchased a new console game. Every game we own either came with the console or accessory, or was used. Same with the various gameboys. But it's the kids that will suffer, not me, and I'm not going to be heartbroken if they play less video games.

Jun 7, 2013#335

Jay

Microsoft Employee #1: Sir, we have 5 million people connected to XBOX Live.
Microsoft Employee #2: How many of those 5 million have an internet connection?
Microsoft Employee #1: It seems like they ALL do!

Jun 7, 2013#336

Necronic

Krisken said:
Because no one (smart) is spending $60 for a game on Steam.

I do that all the time for AAA titles (Bioshock inf).

Guess I'm an idiot.

Jun 7, 2013#337

Dave

Necronic said:
I do that all the time for AAA titles (Bioshock inf).

Guess I'm an idiot.

I do the same when I have money. But I also don't take my computer to other people's houses to play games, whereas I have seen people take consoles or just the games. Which you won't be able to do any longer.

(I know that wasn't your point, but I wanted to expand on my own.)

Jun 7, 2013#338

SpecialKO

Dave said:
But I also don't take my computer to other people's houses to play games, whereas I have seen people take consoles or just the games. Which you won't be able to do any longer.

Maybe it's my lack of sleep showing, but its sounds like you can explicitly do both of those as much as you want (admittedly, the XBone is larger and heavier, but that's not what I think you mean). You just can't leave the games there more than once, which I agree is a little annoying.

Jun 7, 2013#339

Krisken

Necronic said:
I do that all the time for AAA titles (Bioshock inf).

Guess I'm an idiot.

Why wouldn't you get the physical copy then? Can't be bothered to leave the house?

Jun 7, 2013#340

Shakey

SpecialKO said:
Maybe it's my lack of sleep showing, but its sounds like you can explicitly do both of those as much as you want (admittedly, the XBone is larger and heavier, but that's not what I think you mean). You just can't leave the games there more than once, which I agree is a little annoying.

They've said you can install the game on someone elses console and as long as you log into your live account you can play it all you want. When the consoles owner logs back in they won't be able to though.[DOUBLEPOST=1370623495][/DOUBLEPOST]

Krisken said:
Why wouldn't you get the physical copy then? Can't be bothered to leave the house?

Why would you bother buying the physical copy? It's one less box and DVD you have laying around.

Jun 7, 2013#341

Krisken

Shakey said:
Why would you bother buying the physical copy? It's one less box and DVD you have laying around.

Because Steam has lost 3 of my games off of their system and when I wanted to play those games again I couldn't without repurchasing them?

Jun 7, 2013#342

Shakey

Krisken said:
Because Steam has lost 3 of my games off of their system and when I wanted to play those games again I couldn't without repurchasing them?

Gotcha. I didn't know there were many issues like that. It can also be said that physical games can be easily lost or scratched with no way to get them back too. Both have their pros and cons.

Jun 7, 2013#343

Krisken

Shakey said:
Gotcha. I didn't know there were many issues like that. It can also be said that physical games can be easily lost or scratched with no way to get them back too. Both have their pros and cons.

True, they both have their pros and cons. I find the physical copy to be preferable as if anything happens to it generally I'm the one to blame, no one else. If the game is lost on Steam, there's really no way I can blame myself for it.

Jun 7, 2013#344

strawman

Yep, and if steam ever goes out of business, or is sold, or loses a contract with a given publisher, or gets sued, some or all of our digital purchases may go up in smoke.

Jun 7, 2013#345

Frank

Remember, Microsoft has never fucked customers with shitty DRM in the past.

http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2...es-the-dust-whilst-drm-steals-customers-musi/

Jun 7, 2013#346

DarkAudit

stienman said:
Yep, and if steam ever goes out of business, or is sold, or loses a contract with a given publisher, or gets sued, some or all of our digital purchases may go up in smoke.

*cough*Musicmatch*cough*

Jun 7, 2013#347

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
Yep, and if steam ever goes out of business, or is sold, or loses a contract with a given publisher, or gets sued, some or all of our digital purchases may go up in smoke.

Valve has said they keep a master patch to remove all DRM, and should the company ever go under, would allow everyone to keep their games without the authentication process. You'd still have to store the game yourself locally, but it does seem the better alternative.

Given Valves track record, there's no reason to believe this isn't true.

Jun 7, 2013#348

mikerc

Shakey said:
So if you're going to complain about MS not allowing you to resell that game, why not complain about Steam?

I don't complain about Steam not allowing me to resell because they offer frequent sales - I may not be able to recoup some of my initial expenditure further down the line but I have a smaller initial expenditure so that's okay.

I may not be able to lend PC games to my friends but I can (for instance) mod that game. These disadvantages are accepted in the PC market because there are advantages in other areas that make up for it. People are complaining about MS because these disadvantages are now applying to the console market but they're not gaining any new advantages to make up for it.

Jun 7, 2013#349

GasBandit

Yeah, frequent 75% off sales have a way of taking the edge off draconian DRM.

Jun 7, 2013#350

Frank

Steam is one of many options on an open platform. It fosters competition. Hell, with Green Man Gaming, you can get 25% off the price of new titles.

Jun 7, 2013#351

Jay

So huge stories today. Amongst them, XBox employees are on Reddit, downvoting critics and upvoting eachother's comments.

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-positive-reddit-comments-2013-6

Jun 7, 2013#352

AshburnerX

Jay said:
So huge stories today. Amongst them, XBox employees are on Reddit, downvoting critics and upvoting eachother's comments.

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-positive-reddit-comments-2013-6

This is after neogaf banned a bunch of corporate shills today and yesterday. It's very apparent that Microsoft is doing damage control but they are too hamfisted to realize that the damage is already done. If they don't hit it out of the park at e3, they've basically lost the core gamer audience ad are going to be forced to cater to the less informed dewchugger demographic next gen.

Jun 7, 2013#353

Gilgamesh

AshburnerX said:
are going to be forced to cater to the less informed dewchugger demographic next gen.

So the Wii/U audience?

Jun 7, 2013#354

Hailey Knight

Gilgamesh said:
So the Wii/U audience?

Wii, yes. Wii U audience right now are like the early adopters for the 3DS--they believe in Nintendo enough to sacrifice goats before the sensor bar.

Then again, the early 3DS owners got 20 games, 10 of which no one else can download. If Nintendo does something similar with the Wii U, I'm gonna be kicking myself.

Jun 7, 2013#355

Covar

AshburnerX said:
This is after neogaf banned a bunch of corporate shills today and yesterday. It's very apparent that Microsoft is doing damage control but they are too hamfisted to realize that the damage is already done. If they don't hit it out of the park at e3, they've basically lost the core gamer audience ad are going to be forced to cater to the less informed dewchugger demographic next gen.

You mean people who buy the major sports franchise games, and other low selling titles like Call of Duty? How will Microsoft make up for all those gamers who suddenly stop buying used games?

Jun 7, 2013#356

AshburnerX

Covar said:
You mean people who buy the major sports franchise games, and other low selling titles like Call of Duty? How will Microsoft make up for all those gamers who suddenly stop buying used games?

How is Microsoft going to keep other devs on board when they can't sell product on their system because all those guys want are sports games and shooters? One of the biggest problems with courting the Japanese developers has always been that most Japanese video game fans don't have a 360. Even exclusives from the old guard of Square (Mistwalker) weren't enough to bring them onto the system. About the only exclusive titles that DID connect with them were the Idolmaster series. It's one of the reasons the system is DOA in Japan.

You need to remember that there is already a problem with devs going under because they can't sell the numbers they need to please their publishers. What are they all going to do? Make shooters? That market is already over-saturated.

Jun 7, 2013#357

Ravenpoe

AshburnerX said:
are going to be forced to cater to the less informed dewchugger demographic next gen.

So, just the majority of the 'gaming' demographic?

Jun 7, 2013#358

AshburnerX

Ravenpoe said:
So, just the majority of the 'gaming' demographic?

I'd probably call the people who only play games on their phones, iPads, and on Facebook the majority these days... but that's just as depressing.

Jun 8, 2013#359

Necronic

Krisken said:
Why wouldn't you get the physical copy then? Can't be bothered to leave the house?

Why WOULD I get the physical copy?

Jun 8, 2013#360

PatrThom

Necronic said:
Why WOULD I get the physical copy?

-Slow broadband? (The official definition of "broadband" was set at only 768d/200u until 2010, now it is 4d/1u)
-Desire to resell?
-Desire to share?
-Desire to play offline?
-Ease of reinstall?
-Manual/themed swag?
-Non-volatility (frying your console doesn't fry your game collection)?

--Patrick

Jun 8, 2013#361

Hailey Knight

We have fast internet and even then I wouldn't want to have to re-download a game just to play it because the console ran out of harddrive space. And it will, because games keep getting bigger and bigger.

Jun 8, 2013#362

strawman

Even the largest games don't need more than 50GB. As long as they shove a cheap 1TB hard drive in there, and don't add DVR features, you can keep 20 games on there simultaneously, and few of them will use all 50GB, though a few will use more.

Jun 8, 2013#363

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Even the largest games don't need more than 50GB. As long as they shove a cheap 1TB hard drive in there, and don't add DVR features, you can keep 20 games on there simultaneously, and few of them will use all 50GB, though a few will use more.

True, as long as they give it a hard drive twice the size you get in most common PCs, it's no big deal.

If Microsoft releases one for the Xbox one, it's not going to be cheap.

Jun 8, 2013#364

Frank

This is the company that charged 1oo dollars for a 20 gig drive.

Jun 8, 2013#365

PatrThom

Frank said:
This is the company that charged 1oo dollars for a 20 gig drive.

Optimized user experience!

--Patrick

Jun 9, 2013#366

Gilgamesh

Jun 9, 2013#367

strawman

Oh can't you see?
You belong to me!

Jun 9, 2013#368

PatrThom

Like a beast in a gilded cage.

--Patrick

Jun 9, 2013#369

ScytheRexx

Jun 9, 2013#370

Bowielee

Quotemander Prime said:
True, as long as they give it a hard drive twice the size you get in most common PCs, it's no big deal.

If Microsoft releases one for the Xbox one, it's not going to be cheap.

That was another plus of the PS3. You can replace the hard drive with a standard laptop hard drive. I've actually been thinking of putting a SSD in mine for faster loading.

Jun 10, 2013#371

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
That was another plus of the PS3. You can replace the hard drive with a standard laptop hard drive. I've actually been thinking of putting a SSD in mine for faster loading.

Oh for sure, I'm rocking a 1tb hard modded INTO the case, and have an external 1.5tb usb plugged in. It's amazing. Again IF i happen to get a PS4, I'm hoping for the same kind of compatability.

Jun 10, 2013#372

Jay

They're fucking nuts.

$500 + $50 for live + $50 for a 2nd controller + $60 for one game = after taxes over $700. That is if you are in the US.

Being Canadian, no Netflix, most media options won't work.... more taxes...

Passssss.

Jun 11, 2013#373

GasBandit

Yeah, from what I read, the PS4 presentation gave hardware specifics (500gb drive for those wondering), then made fun of XBone for the rest of their time (doesn't block used/shared physical media, costs $100 less, see the video game news thread).

Jun 11, 2013#374

ThatNickGuy

GasBandit said:
Yeah, from what I read, the PS4 presentation gave hardware specifics (500gb drive for those wondering), then made fun of XBone for the rest of their time (doesn't block used/shared physical media, costs $100 less, see the video game news thread).

Not really. They talked about stuff coming for PS3, then what the PS4 has to offer, then a slew of game announcements and demos, THEN dropped the mic on Xbone several times.

Jun 11, 2013#375

ThatNickGuy

http://www.gamespot.com/e3/killer-instinct-is-free-to-play-6409773/

Killer Instinct will be free-to-play...and comes with one character only. The rest must be paid for.

You know, if Microsoft keeps shooting themselves in the foot like this, we'll have to amputate.

Jun 11, 2013#376

Terrik

ThatNickGuy said:
http://www.gamespot.com/e3/killer-instinct-is-free-to-play-6409773/

Killer Instinct will be free-to-play...and comes with one character only. The rest must be paid for.

You know, if Microsoft keeps shooting themselves in the foot like this, we'll have to amputate.

I'm waiting for someone to come out and say "JUST KIDDING!"

Jun 11, 2013#377

Chad Sexington

I have not heard a single "Xboner" joke, and frankly, internet, I am disappointed in you.

Jun 11, 2013#378

Fun Size

That's because boner jokes are hard.

Jun 11, 2013#379

ThatNickGuy

Chad Sexington said:
I have not heard a single "Xboner" joke, and frankly, internet, I am disappointed in you.

Yeah, it's nard gonna happen.

Jun 11, 2013#380

Chad Sexington

NOT PUNS DEAR GOD NOT THE PUNS

Jun 11, 2013#381

Cheesy1

Penis jokes are phallacious, anyways.

Jun 11, 2013#382

Espy

Whats the point in making jokes about that when Microsoft already beat everyone to it?

I mean sure, it's kind of a crappy one but they went for it.

Jun 11, 2013#383

ScytheRexx

Jun 11, 2013#384

Chad Sexington

I wonder how my fake Sony stock is doing.

Jun 11, 2013#385

GasBandit

Chad Sexington said:
I wonder how my fake Sony stock is doing.

It's been going up steadily since friday, reversing a 6 week long slide. Looking at their chart, things seem... cautiously... optimistic for them since the start of the year.

Jun 11, 2013#386

Gilgamesh

Let's see how that debate that the always on Kinect isn't something to worry about is going:
http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/201...sed-transparency-of-government-data-requests/

Jun 11, 2013#387

CynicismKills

hahahaha, wow. Keep shooting yourself in that foot, MS.

Jun 11, 2013#388

Jay

Jun 11, 2013#389

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
hahahaha, wow. Keep shooting yourself in that foot, MS.

Blocked by Viacom?

Jun 11, 2013#390

Cheesy1

Try this one:

Jun 11, 2013#391

AshburnerX

Game publishers already turning on Microsoft: EA denies that it ever asked Microsoft for used games DRM.

Jun 11, 2013#392

Cheesy1

AshburnerX said:
Game publishers already turning on Microsoft: EA denies that it ever asked Microsoft for used games DRM.

"As the guy who is the chief operating officer of Electronic Arts I can tell you that EA did not aggressively lobby for the platform holders to put some gating function in there to allow or disallow used games. I am on record as being a proponent of used games."

coughBULLSHITcough

Jun 12, 2013#393

Ravenpoe

Cheesy1 said:
"As the guy who is the chief operating officer of Electronic Arts I can tell you that EA did not aggressively lobby for the platform holders to put some gating function in there to allow or disallow used games. I am on record as being a proponent of used games."

coughBULLSHITcough

Hey, no one stops the sell of used EA games except EA! They don't need Microsoft's help.

Why do you think they make shitty games? There's no used games to buy if no one ever buys them in the first place.

Jun 12, 2013#394

Jay

I honestly face-palmed when that fucker answered that. I can't believe he even said that.

ANOTHER ROUND OF PR CONTROL FOLKS.

CENSOR THE INTERNET

Jun 12, 2013#395

AshburnerX

Ravenpoe said:
Hey, no one stops the sell of used EA games except EA! They don't need Microsoft's help.

Why do you think they make shitty games? There's no used games to buy if no one ever buys them in the first place.

I could actually see EA wanting people to turn in their old games. They put new sports titles year after and a large number of the people who play those don't keep old editions. They wouldn't want to upset the only people they can count on to keep their big franchises running.

Then again, they certainly don't want people turning in anything BUT those games.

Jun 12, 2013#396

GasBandit

Jun 12, 2013#397

General Specific

Well, after watching everything and hearing all the promises and failures, seeing the games being offered, I think that my next console purchase will likely be a PS4.

About a year after launch when the major hardware bugs are worked out. Until then, I have no problem sticking with my 360 and playing PS3 games at my friend's house.

Jun 12, 2013#398

bhamv3

Jun 13, 2013#399

Frank

stienman

Honest question that I am curious about, now that this massive government spying thing is out in the air, are you still as comfortable with the Kinect as you were earlier in this thread? Your answers are usually detailed and interesting to read.

Jun 13, 2013#400

strawman

Yes, I'm still fine with the kinect. Microsoft is not collecting video or images on their servers, so the government can't get them via warrant without naming you in the warrant.

It's no more worrisome than using a baby video monitor or nanny cam or cell phone.

Jun 13, 2013#401

Gilgamesh

stienman said:
Yes, I'm still fine with the kinect. Microsoft is not collecting video or images on their servers, so the government can't get them via warrant without naming you in the warrant.

It's no more worrisome than using a baby video monitor or nanny cam or cell phone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/microsoft-twitter-rivals-nsa-requests

You were saying?

Jun 13, 2013#402

Krisken

It's like they were just waiting...

Jun 14, 2013#403

Gilgamesh

Jun 14, 2013#404

Bubble181

And in the EU, most governments are still twiddling their thumbs and pretending there's no problem. For once, I actually like Verhofstadt's (leader of the Liberal fraction in the EP) reaction - since the NSA was monitoring all calls made through, in, to, or from the USA, this includes massive amounts of information about calls made by, to and from the EU, as well - which is a huge breach of our privacy. It's very literally espionage and could have very far reaching consequences - either EU completely submits as the lapdog of the USA and accepts that your agencies can do whatever the hel lthey want over here, or...well, we'll have to see.
That Europol and MI6 weren't actively collaborating, but could request the info through the NSA, is...odd, and problematic. We'll see.

Jun 14, 2013#405

LordRendar

Actually Viviane Reding, the European Union's commissioner of justice, sent a letter to Eric Holder demanding to know what the NSA has done with Europeans' personal information.The response might affect US-European trade relations.

Jun 14, 2013#406

Fun Size

Gilgamesh said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/microsoft-twitter-rivals-nsa-requests

You were saying?

They're concerned with requests made for things like email, not Kinect.

One thing to remember about the current Kinect that I'm pretty sure they wouldn't change, especially now: the Kinect is very explicit about when it's going to even save images to the Xbox, much less upload them somewhere. Right now, every Kinect game that takes video or pictures shows them after the game, and then explicitly asks if you want them saved and/or uploaded anywhere. While this isn't going to placate the conspiracy theorists who believe that the gubmint is going to promptly override the entire system to watch you eat dinner in front of your TV, for the rest of us it's reassuring that nothing is going out without our explicit permission.

Jun 14, 2013#407

Shawn

Reggie Fils-Aime of Nintendo suggested that if Microsoft is so worried about people reselling their games, that maybe they should just focus on making better games.

Jun 14, 2013#408

strawman

Gilgamesh said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/microsoft-twitter-rivals-nsa-requests

You were saying?

See, I don't understand why you are concerned?

The xbox does NOT upload images to ANY server without explicit user permission.

So there's nothing on microsoft's servers that the kinect collected that the government can take.

What, exactly, are you worried about? Spell it out, because I'm simply not getting it.

It's absolutely no worse than carrying a cell phone around with you.

Jun 14, 2013#409

Shawn

I don't want my naked antics interpreted by XboxOne as my character banging a hooker in the next GTA game.

Jun 14, 2013#410

GasBandit

stienman said:
See, I don't understand why you are concerned?

The xbox does NOT upload images to ANY server without explicit user permission.

So there's nothing on microsoft's servers that the kinect collected that the government can take.

What, exactly, are you worried about? Spell it out, because I'm simply not getting it.

It's absolutely no worse than carrying a cell phone around with you.

To play devil's advocate, they can already turn on your cell phone's mic and listen (supposedly they have to get a warrant first), and kinect's uploading habits aren't hardware - and there are firmware/software/os patches ALL the time on microsoft console systems that can change that behavior.

Jun 14, 2013#411

strawman

GasBandit said:
To play devil's advocate, they can already turn on your cell phone's mic and listen (supposedly they have to get a warrant first), and kinect's uploading habits aren't hardware - and there are firmware/software/os patches ALL the time on microsoft console systems that can change that behavior.

Exactly.

If they want to see inside your house they will have to get a warrant with your name on it, whether its through the kinect, cell phone, or a cable guy coming to "upgrade" your cable box.

If they have reason to spy on you, it doesn't matter if you have a kinect or not, they'll be able to do it.

They will not be able to get video or images of you from Microsoft that you didn't explicitly upload to Microsoft. They will not be able to get a live stream of any sort, until you start live streaming to Microsoft.

That's where the 1979 Supreme Court decision ends. They can only get information from the company which is owned by the company and does not breach a reasonable expectation of privacy.

They ruled that phone numbers dialed, time of calling, and duration are not private, and are owned by the telephone company.

The content of the phone call, however, is protected, and not owned by the telephone company.

So even if you were streaming to or through Microsoft, the content should still be protected, the actual images, audio, and video.

But they might be able to convince the court that your friend list, which is publicly available, isn't private, and can be given to the Feds with a simple warrant to Microsoft.

I don't see the kinect changing that dynamic, and even if it did, again, I assert its no more invasive than a cell phone, and I see a lot of people carrying those around with less consternation than people a displaying here about the Xbox.

Jun 14, 2013#412

GasBandit

You don't see me naked on my cell phone. Well, not unless you swipe left a couple times.

Jun 14, 2013#413

mikerc

GasBandit said:
To play devil's advocate, they can already turn on your cell phone's mic and listen (supposedly they have to get a warrant first), and kinect's uploading habits aren't hardware - and there are firmware/software/os patches ALL the time on microsoft console systems that can change that behavior.

To further this argument, your cell phone needs to be on all the time, kinect just unplug that shit from the wall when not in use. Can't spy on you when its got no power to work.

Jun 14, 2013#414

Gilgamesh

stienman said:
See, I don't understand why you are concerned?

I'm not, I'm simply stating that the Verizon scandal is just the beginning. Personally I don't care, I've said before that all this Orwellian outcry is over exaggeration and until actual personal privacy is invaded, I don't really care. When the Kinects start uploading stuff from the Kinect unto public servers though, I'll laugh at all the people who bought one in the first place.

Jun 14, 2013#415

GasBandit

And, as I said before, it seems to me this kinect scare is one that can be easily overcome with a post-it note.

Jun 14, 2013#416

figmentPez

I think more bothersome is the idea of what might be done with such cameras once they become commonplace. Should it really be possible for your media player to count the number of people in the room and then decide it will stop playing because you've got a dozen people and that constitutes a unlicensed public performance? I'm more bothered by the idea of advertisers monitoring my heartrate during commercials to figure out if I'm getting excited by their latest trailer. Sure, Microsoft isn't doing that now, but an iteration or two down the line? After we get used to the "your Xbox needs permission to monitor the room so it can best respond to your input, agree?" At first it seems worded just so that you can say "Xbox turn on and start Netflix" but how carefully will they word this so that they can keep track of other responses for their sponsors? I'm less worried about what they send to the government than what they keep for their own corporate uses.

Jun 14, 2013#417

strawman

If you aren't beating abnormal heartbeats then you have nothing to hide from the kinect sensor.

Jun 14, 2013#418

figmentPez

stienman said:
If you aren't beating abnormal heartbeats then you have nothing to hide from the kinect sensor.

That sounds suspiciously like "If you're innocent you have nothing to hide."

Jun 14, 2013#419

Terrik

figmentPez said:
That sounds suspiciously like "If you're innocent you have nothing to hide."

There is no innocence. Only degrees of guilt.

Jun 14, 2013#420

DarkAudit

stienman said:
Exactly.

If they want to see inside your house they will have to get a warrant with your name on it, whether its through the kinect, cell phone, or a cable guy coming to "upgrade" your cable box.

They will not be able to get video or images of you from Microsoft that you didn't explicitly upload to Microsoft. They will not be able to get a live stream of any sort, until you start live streaming to Microsoft.

You sure about all that? What's to stop Microsoft from remotely turning on the camera? We've already had one major case of officials caught spying on kids without their knowledge via the laptop webcam.

Jun 14, 2013#421

Hailey Knight

If no one catches them doing it, has Microsoft really done anything? :awesome:

Jun 14, 2013#422

strawman

DarkAudit said:
What's to stop Microsoft from remotely turning on the camera?

The same thing that stops the cell phone company from turning your phone into a microphone without alerting you.

You aren't interesting enough to watch and/or listen to.

Jun 14, 2013#423

Shakey

stienman said:
You aren't interesting enough to watch and/or listen to.

Jun 14, 2013#424

DarkAudit

Jun 14, 2013#425

Jay

Jun 14, 2013#426

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
The same thing that stops the cell phone company from turning your phone into a microphone without alerting you.

You aren't interesting enough to watch and/or listen to.

My mom says I'm interesting enough.

Jun 15, 2013#427

Frank

Business as usual at these events.

That there is the box running the Xbox One demos at E3. Now, noticed by other, more savvy people, the video card installed there is either a GeForce Titan, 770 GTX or a 780 GTX. All very expensive high end Nvidia cards. The real APU being used in the Xbox Ones is about the equivalent of an AMD 7790 (about 150 dollars).

Also funny, noted by people at E3 that watched the demos crash is that they're using PCs running Windows 7. Even Microsoft doesn't want to use 8.

Jun 15, 2013#428

CrimsonSoul

What I would do is buy the disc then when I get done playing it go to the store day the disc diesnt work get a brand new copy of the game and sell that brand new one on ebay or whatever

Jun 15, 2013#429

Hailey Knight

CrimsonSoul said:
What I would do is buy the disc then when I get done playing it go to the store day the disc diesnt work get a brand new copy of the game and sell that brand new one on ebay or whatever

I think you already know that won't work. There's usually a time limit on returning that kind of electronic, and if you're going to play it in a day, may as well just rent it and save yourself the trouble.

Jun 15, 2013#430

checkeredhat

Cheesy1 said:
Try this one:

Actually, as someone who still owns a PS1 and plays most of his games still on a PS2 my roommate owns, getting an XBox 360 when the next generation of consoles comes out was already sort of my plan.

Jun 15, 2013#431

CrimsonSoul

Quotemander Prime said:
I think you already know that won't work. There's usually a time limit on returning that kind of electronic, and if you're going to play it in a day, may as well just rent it and save yourself the trouble.

Walmart will usually let you replace workout a receipt

Jun 15, 2013#432

Gilgamesh

checkeredhat said:
Actually, as someone who still owns a PS1 and plays most of his games still on a PS2 my roommate owns, getting an XBox 360 when the next generation of consoles comes out was already sort of my plan.

Does that make it a good business practice in any way which is the point of posting this video as a reactionary?

Jun 15, 2013#433

klew

CrimsonSoul said:
What I would do is buy the disc then when I get done playing it go to the store day the disc diesnt work get a brand new copy of the game and sell that brand new one on ebay or whatever

Quotemander Prime said:
I think you already know that won't work. There's usually a time limit on returning that kind of electronic, and if you're going to play it in a day, may as well just rent it and save yourself the trouble.

You might get a new disc, if you return it within a reasonable amount of time, say a week or less, saying you haven't gotten around to opening it yet. However, I imagined a handy system would make a disc registration code to be unique to each purchase (perhaps printed on your original receipt), like iTunes or pay-as-you-go phone prepaid cards and you wouldn't get a new one of those. The disc may be defective, but the code would not be, so you would be stuck with the original code. This might also be a way to fight shoplifting, as the game disc has no value until "activated" at the register. Of course then crackers will find a way to generate registration codes.

Jun 15, 2013#434

checkeredhat

Gilgamesh said:
Does that make it a good business practice in any way which is the point of posting this video as a reactionary?

No. Of course not. You seem rather argumentitive.

Jun 15, 2013#435

Gilgamesh

checkeredhat said:
No. Of course not. You seem rather argumentitive.

Your post seemed dismissive of the point. I was simply responding.

Jun 15, 2013#436

strawman

Hm. That might work. This exposes a loophole in the system. If you can buy a game, lock it to your account, then you no longer need the disc once you've loaded it onto your system. Since it belongs to you, in theory they should allow you to download it again without the disc, or if the disc is scratched.

Then you can return the disc after it's on your account and get a refund, but still have the game.

I think MS might have built a loophole into their system, if some retailers continue to accept returns for any reason.

Jun 15, 2013#437

Frank

stienman said:
Hm. That might work. This exposes a loophole in the system. If you can buy a game, lock it to your account, then you no longer need the disc once you've loaded it onto your system. Since it belongs to you, in theory they should allow you to download it again without the disc, or if the disc is scratched.

Then you can return the disc after it's on your account and get a refund, but still have the game.

I think MS might have built a loophole into their system, if some retailers continue to accept returns for any reason.

I'm sure they've thought of this. Of course, I assume they would have weighed all the options.

Jun 16, 2013#438

Cheesy1

Why Oddworld is Coming to Every Platform Except Xbox

Jun 16, 2013#439

strawman

That baffles me. I understand the reasoning, but I still don't think it's in microsoft's best interest to force the publisher model like this.

Jun 16, 2013#440

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
Hm. That might work. This exposes a loophole in the system. If you can buy a game, lock it to your account, then you no longer need the disc once you've loaded it onto your system. Since it belongs to you, in theory they should allow you to download it again without the disc, or if the disc is scratched.

Then you can return the disc after it's on your account and get a refund, but still have the game.

I think MS might have built a loophole into their system, if some retailers continue to accept returns for any reason.

I read somewhere that they're providing retailers with some sort of scanner that links with the customer's account. So when they scan the game they're trading it, it also wipes the digital copy off their account or something. Seems overly complicated, but necessary.

Jun 16, 2013#441

SpecialKO

stienman said:
That baffles me. I understand the reasoning, but I still don't think it's in microsoft's best interest to force the publisher model like this.

It's really bizarre. I can understand not wanting to allow anything on their marketplace that doesn't have a strong support infrastructure behind it, but surely that's something that can be worked out on a case-by-case basis instead of forcing a publisher.

Jun 16, 2013#442

Frank

Microsoft burned a lot of indie bridges already (just as Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish or Team Meat) and continue to not help their case with them with crazy policies like that.

Jun 16, 2013#443

Jay

Jun 16, 2013#444

Hailey Knight

Jun 16, 2013#445

Terrik

..............

Jun 16, 2013#446

Jay

Microsoft this past week.

Jun 16, 2013#447

Krisken

Jesus fuck. I mean, ok, NOW who is ok with this?

Jun 16, 2013#448

Frank

Someone else from Microsoft claimed that wasn't true. Not the first time they've sent mixed messages about the console.

Jun 16, 2013#449

strawman

There are situations where your steam account can be disabled, thus losing access to all your games.

Microsoft is trying to compete with valves upcoming console.

Lots of people won't buy it for this reals and that's fine, vote with your wallet.

But lots of people know very, very few accounts in either system become fully disabled, and so it simply doesn't bother them.

Jun 16, 2013#450

Frank

stienman said:
There are situations where your steam account can be disabled, thus losing access to all your games.

Microsoft is trying to compete with valves upcoming console.

Lots of people won't buy it for this reals and that's fine, vote with your wallet.

But lots of people know very, very few accounts in either system become fully disabled, and so it simply doesn't bother them.

Yeah, but if you get banned from Team Fortress 2, you don't lose access to all of your games.

There are many cases of people being unjustly banned from XBL from reasons ranging from trolling to a guy saying he's a gay gamer in his profile (that was fun to read the justification for).

Jun 16, 2013#451

Krisken

stienman said:
There are situations where your steam account can be disabled, thus losing access to all your games.

Microsoft is trying to compete with valves upcoming console.

Lots of people won't buy it for this reals and that's fine, vote with your wallet.

But lots of people know very, very few accounts in either system become fully disabled, and so it simply doesn't bother them.

Yeah. I also don't use Steam anymore for this reason. I lost all of my GTA games for some unknown reasons. Shit shouldn't happen on a console though!

And the idea that it is rare doesn't mean it should be an option. It's absolutely insane to think you could spend $600 on a console, $60 on each game, and have it all shot to piss. Fuck, it makes 40k sound cheap and they can't take my models away!

Jun 16, 2013#452

Hailey Knight

Allegedly there are "Microsoft representatives" going into Best Buys where the Wii U E3 games (all five of them) are set up for people to play and harassing those players. Odds are these are just Xbox fans being IRL trolls, I don't think even Microsoft is that stupid. That said, they are that petty. What's bothering me a lot about all this Xbox One crap isn't just the awful decisions Microsoft is making, but their attitude. They seem to have this perspective that they're entitled to our purchase, like we're doing something wrong by choosing an alternative. The whole "no internet? buy a 360" thing, for example. They know the connectivity thing for Xbox One is going to cause people issues, but in their minds, it's like you're supposed to work around their right to have their console in your home.

Vote with your wallet is the right attitude--it's just disgusting to me how Microsoft is acting about it as if they deserve to be king of consoles. They've been in the market a decade or so. So what? Nintendo's been around 30 years or something and they're not entitled to shit; why should Microsoft expect better treatment?

Jun 16, 2013#453

Krisken

What really bothers me is what a turnaround it is from how they entered the market. It's the hubris Nintendo had before the Playstation dropped and forced them to choose a role for their console.

Jun 16, 2013#454

Nile

Steam had an issue a while back with some music copyrights in GTA, so they had to revoke the existing licenses. You should've gotten a new license for the games automatically, though. I'd contact Steam customer support, they'd have a record of you buying the series.

Jun 16, 2013#455

Krisken

I'll have to give that a shot. Sad, though, since I play GTA Vice City BECAUSE of the music.

Jun 16, 2013#456

Nile

Here's the list of songs removed from Vice City:

· Michael Jackson -"Billie Jean"
· Michael Jackson -"Wanna Be Startin' Somethin"
· Ozzy Osbourne -"Bark At The Moon"
· Kate Bush -"Wow"
· Herbie Hancock - "Rock It"
· Afrika Bambaataa -"Looking For The Perfect Beat"
· Lionel Richie - "Running with the night"
· A couple of songs from Radio Espantoso

Yeah, definitely lost a lot of good ones. That being said, there should be a folder in the Vice City directory called "mp3s". Just drop whatever songs you want in there, switch to the custom playlist station, and have a good time

Jun 16, 2013#457

Krisken

That's not the worst change, though. My favorites were 99 Luftballoons and a few others not listed. Good to know my favorites weren't touched!

Jun 17, 2013#458

SpecialKO

Is there an extremity Microsoft hasn't shot themselves in, at this point?

Jun 17, 2013#459

Bubble181

What surprises me, sort of, is how people keep assuming you'll be able to somehow trade in games. For the PC, you've been incapable of seeling used games for, what, 10 years now? I can literally buy a game, not leave the store, turn around and aska refund, and they'll refuse it since it's a pc game. Why would XB be any different? It's your loss, not the retailers'.

Jun 17, 2013#460

ThatNickGuy

You know, it's funny. Ten years ago, I hated that I couldn't sell my copy of Half-Life 2. And yet, now, I can't even imagine buying a physical copy of a PC games. And I like it that way. I like my Steam list of games. Admittedly, Steam sales have made the idea of digital copies much easier to deal with. I used to own a physical copy of Ghost Master, but after only paying $2.50 (maybe less; I can't remember) for it? If Steam ever went down and I lost that game, I wouldn't cry a river because it was so cheap. In fact, I don't think there's a single game I haven't gotten on sale. Part of that is, honestly, I think digital games are overpriced, anyway. Though they're nowhere near as bad as Live or PSN, where they expect you to pay the same price for the digital game as the hard copy. That's just insulting.

And, you know, if you don't agree with Steam, there's always GoG.

Jun 17, 2013#461

GasBandit

Or piracy.

Jun 17, 2013#462

ThatNickGuy

True, but digital game sales have lessened piracy, has it not?

Jun 17, 2013#463

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
True, but digital game sales have lessened piracy, has it not?

Yes, but mostly because of the reasonable price points. That was what got me, anyway. I've only pirated ONE game in the last year. I used to pirate EVERY GAME pretty much.

Jun 17, 2013#464

AshburnerX

Jun 17, 2013#465

PatrThom

Quotemander Prime said:

The console itself is free. What you're really buying for your money is the account, all the games are essentially 100% DLC in their entirety (i.e., the entire game is DLC), and they can retroactively revoke that acct without refund at any time.
Just so we're clear.

--Patrick

Jun 17, 2013#466

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:

Damn did they fuck up that quote.

Or were they trying to do a thing on Xbox Live?

Jun 17, 2013#467

Espy

Yeah, I thought that one was weird too. A for effort I guess.

Jun 18, 2013#468

Gilgamesh

Man, they're really pushing that Xbox 360 for all the times you can't use the Xbone huh?

Jun 18, 2013#469

Bubble181

Is that an *actual* MS account? I mean, holy crap if it is. That's just nuts. Even Apple had the decency to be apologetic when you couldn't use the iPhone everywhere upon release.

Jun 18, 2013#470

Espy

That has to be photoshopped. Thats just to dumb to be real.

Jun 18, 2013#471

tegid

The 2 at the end of the account name is suspicious.

Edit: Ah, no. There are 5 accounts.

Jun 18, 2013#472

Covar

Only Xbox support account that is verified is @XboxSupport which is Xbox Support, (1-5) :confused:

Jun 18, 2013#473

Bubble181

At the very least, I'd expect the mto say they carry around a Zune for on-the-road-gaming

Jun 18, 2013#474

Gilgamesh

Why would you believe that's not real? They've already been caught on camera saying that if you don't have online, you can use a Xbox360 instead.

Jun 18, 2013#475

Shawn

I think it's very nice of them to encourage people to use the better of the two systems.

Jun 18, 2013#476

ScytheRexx

Is it just me, or does it feel like they are doing this intentionally so that they can sell both the XBone and the new Slim 360 to the same people? They are doing everything they can to hamper the ability to use the XBone outside of certain rigid circumstances and then when people call them on it they just say to buy a whole other console.

So much for "The only console you will need".

Jun 18, 2013#477

PatrThom

I want to know if your XB1 can still be used for all its other amazing features once you can't use it to play games.

--Patrick

Jun 18, 2013#478

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
I want to know if your XB1 can still be used for all its other amazing features once you can't use it to play games.

--Patrick

I'm guessing no - as it's all tied to your account. O course, if you intend to use the XB1 to surf tv channels, and you suddenly can't because your internet's cut off, that's going to sound mighty ridiculous. But I can totally see it.

Jun 18, 2013#479

Espy

Gilgamesh said:
Why would you believe that's not real? They've already been caught on camera saying that if you don't have online, you can use a Xbox360 instead.

I dunno, it's just... such an astoundingly stupid thing to do. I mean you are right, but I just... ugh.

Jun 18, 2013#480

GasBandit

Microsoft bows to massive public sentiment, says changes in the works for XBox One.
!

Jun 18, 2013#481

Chad Sexington

GasBandit said:
Microsoft bows to massive public sentiment, says changes in the works for XBox One.
!

Aaaand i hate you

Jun 18, 2013#482

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
Microsoft bows to massive public sentiment, says changes in the works for XBox One.

ExtraLife for 2013 - 06 -17

Jun 18, 2013#483

Cog

I tried this is another forums and it didn't end well.

Arguably physical media is going to disappear eventually, so how this console of the future should be? How resales, loans, rentals should work? The truth is, I can't think of anything that won't cause the reactions we have seen.

Jun 18, 2013#484

AshburnerX

Cog said:
I tried this is another forums and it didn't end well.

Arguably physical media is going to disappear eventually, so how this console of the future should be? How resales, loans, rentals should work? The truth is, I can't think of anything that won't cause the reactions we have seen.

Eventually can be a long time. Right now the US doesn't have the infrastructure to support an always online, digital game only console and this is mostly the fault of the government for not financing the spread of fiber and the local fiber monopolies (Comcast, Time Warner, etc) who have no interest in spreading the lines to rural areas, upgrading the lines for speed, or really doing anything that will cost them money at all (like providing their service at a fair price). Now this is slowly changing with Google's internet service (which is slowly making it's way east) but we don't have it yet.

There is also always going to be the issue of military service members (and others who move around a lot, often to areas with net access) being unable to use their systems because of this kind of DRM. Honestly, I think the best choice would be for the console makers to just make special, DRM free versions of the consoles as a good PR move. Yes, a few of the systems might walk off once people realize what the deal is, but the potential piracy problems are so infinitesimally small compared to the very real PR problems of the system that this shouldn't matter.

Jun 18, 2013#485

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
Eventually can be a long time. Right now the US doesn't have the infrastructure to support an always online, digital game only console and this is mostly the fault of the government for not financing the spread of fiber and the local fiber monopolies (Comcast, Time Warner, etc) who have no interest in spreading the lines to rural areas, upgrading the lines for speed, or really doing anything that will cost them money at all (like providing their service at a fair price). Now this is slowly changing with Google's internet service (which is slowly making it's way east) but we don't have it yet.

There is also always going to be the issue of military service members (and others who move around a lot, often to areas with net access) being unable to use their systems because of this kind of DRM. Honestly, I think the best choice would be for the console makers to just make special, DRM free versions of the consoles as a good PR move. Yes, a few of the systems might walk off once people realize what the deal is, but the potential piracy problems are so infinitesimally small compared to the very real PR problems of the system that this shouldn't matter.

But they don't need to make special Xbox Ones, remember?

Just get a 360!

Jun 18, 2013#486

Cog

AshburnerX said:
Eventually can be a long time. Right now the US doesn't have the infrastructure to support an always online, digital game only console and this is mostly the fault of the government for not financing the spread of fiber and the local fiber monopolies (Comcast, Time Warner, etc) who have no interest in spreading the lines to rural areas, upgrading the lines for speed, or really doing anything that will cost them money at all (like providing their service at a fair price). Now this is slowly changing with Google's internet service (which is slowly making it's way east) but we don't have it yet..

Maybe not yet, but lots of people bought sim city and diablo 3 and they obviously don't care about always on drm. My question is more to discuss how different than the xbone this hypothetical console should be .

Jun 18, 2013#487

Gilgamesh

Cog said:
Maybe not yet, but lots of people bought sim city and diablo 3 and they obviously don't care about always on drm. My question is more to discuss how different than the xbone this hypothetical console should be .

Actually alot of people DIDN'T buy Sim City and Diablo 3 BECAUSE of DRM. Did they do well? Decently sure. Could they have done MUCH better? Yep.
Will Xbone do well? Decently sure. Will the PS4 do MUCH better? Yep.

In this case, the Xbone has direct competition that's doing the SMARTER thing that they SHOULD be doing.

Jun 18, 2013#488

Frank

Diablo 3 sold 12 million units. For a PC only, non-free to play game that's night unheard of.

Jun 18, 2013#489

Cog

Yes. The ps4 is obviously better than the xbox. That is not for discussion. What I'm asking is that in a world without physical media, how a home console could do better than the xbone. Is it really necessary for it to be always on or connect every 24 hours? It is really necessary to limit resales? What about loans? etc, etc.

Jun 18, 2013#490

Krisken

Cog said:
Maybe not yet, but lots of people bought sim city and diablo 3 and they obviously don't care about always on drm. My question is more to discuss how different than the xbone this hypothetical console should be .

I'm sure they did. I'm playing Torchlight 2 because of it though. Half the price and I'm enjoying it more than Diablo 2, which is saying something.

Jun 18, 2013#491

bhamv3

GasBandit said:
Microsoft bows to massive public sentiment, says changes in the works for XBox One.
!

I disagree with some of the points he made, and remain unconvinced. Honestly, it's like like they've given up on us gamers. I feel quite let down with the whole runaround they've given us.

Jun 19, 2013#492

GasBandit

Frank said:
Diablo 3 sold 12 million units. For a PC only, non-free to play game that's night unheard of.

And the wails of buyer's remorse could be heard as far as Alpha Tucanae.

Jun 19, 2013#493

Gilgamesh

GasBandit said:
And the wails of buyer's remorse could be heard as far as Alpha Tucanae.

Yep. Frank that game sold solely on name. As the Xbox will. Unlike Diablo 3, the Xbone will be returnable for a different system (PS4).

Jun 19, 2013#494

Bubble181

Considering they've actually admitted that DIII sales were only "okay" but didn't get beyond that (yes, one can argue that, as per usual, their expectations were unrealistic), I'd say they felt a sting. More-over, the RMAH is suffering because there's less people playing DIII now than there were playing DII just before DIII release. That's saying something.

Jun 19, 2013#495

Frank

I don't think people will be returning many Xbox Ones, they'd have to be buying them in the first place. Have any of you looked at the best seller lists on Amazon or Gamestop?

PS4 is dominating them all.

Jun 19, 2013#496

AshburnerX

Xbox One Launch Day edition is selling well, but the PS4 has the rest of the top ten dominated and it's moving up in the rankings. You don't see a One game until you hit #25 and then the rest of the One launch titles are doing worse than the PS4 camera. This does not bode well for Microsoft.

Jun 19, 2013#497

Ravenpoe

Frank said:
Diablo 3 sold 12 million units. For a PC only, non-free to play game that's night unheard of.

Everyone I know got D3 for free from being a WoW subscriber.

I'm sure it still sold a fuckton on name alone, though.

Jun 19, 2013#498

GasBandit

Das Bo Schitt does not disappoint.

Jun 19, 2013#499

ScytheRexx

Jun 19, 2013#500

Espy

I just tried that and it is totally true. Thats not photoshopped.

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