Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

GasBandit

Staff member
You're still talking paper vs real world. You just can't get away from that, I understand, but it's not going to change reality.
You're still using your subjective experience to fallaciously appeal to emotion. You just can't get away from that, I understand, but it's not going to change reality.


As long as there is a secondary set of help available, such as Food Stamps and Medical Aid, they won't need to be given a living wage. However as most Libs/GoPs want to be rid of all government assistance it becomes a death sentence doesn't it?
Suicide and abortion were also not your only choices. You could have put the child up for adoption (frankly I'm surprised CPS didn't get involved as it was, hard to find two more unfit parents than a couple teenagers cut off from parental support). The issue you keep avoiding here is that we're not talking about other forms of assistance, we're talking about wages. Food stamps/CHIPS is a different discussion.
 
You're still using your subjective experience to fallaciously appeal to emotion. You just can't get away from that, I understand, but it's not going to change reality.
Incorrect, I'm using the reality of the poorer areas and the statistics of teenage pregnancy in the United States. You're using ideas that work in theory only.


Suicide and abortion were also not your only choices. You could have put the child up for adoption
Gasbandit's solution: Get rid of the child!

(frankly I'm surprised CPS didn't get involved as it was, hard to find two more unfit parents than a couple teenagers cut off from parental support).
Yet we managed thanks to the world not being the one you envision.

The issue you keep avoiding here is that we're not talking about other forms of assistance, we're talking about wages. Food stamps/CHIPS is a different discussion.
I already agreed on the wages situation. A job should not have to pay out a living wage at the lowest job skill bracket. I was simply adding in that without another form of assistance, a living wage would be the only option.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Incorrect, I'm using the reality of the poorer areas and the statistics of teenage pregnancy in the United States. You're using ideas that work in theory only.
Ironic assertion, coming from a socialist. Your perceived "reality" of the poorer areas would only be exacerbated by the policies you push.



Gasbandit's solution: Get rid of the child!
If you can't afford a child, your best option is contraception (or, you know, show an ounce of self fucking control), but you made your decision. So you were going to have a child you could not afford. It should have been a very prominent option in your mind to give that child up to someone who could afford to raise it outside of abject poverty. I'm presuming you made a different decision there, too. If your assertion is that no teen should be expected to use contraception, have access to abortion, or put a child they can't afford up for adoption, you're basically holding the entire country hostage to the selfish whims of a legion of horny idiot-children.


Yet we managed thanks to the world not being the one you envision.
You managed in a world where the minimum wage was even lower. Imagine that. I bet you didn't even consider trying to do so in New York City. I'd wager that if it had been suggested to you to do so, you would have considered the idea insane.


I already agreed on the wages situation. A job should not have to pay out a living wage at the lowest job skill bracket. I was simply adding in that without another form of assistance, a living wage would be the only option.
That was not what you were doing until this very sentence.
 
Ironic assertion, coming from a socialist. Your perceived "reality" of the poorer areas would only be exacerbated by the policies you push.
Socialist? You're hilarious and have no idea. Nice try though.

If you can't afford a child, your best option is contraception (or, you know, show an ounce of self fucking control), but you made your decision. So you were going to have a child you could not afford. It should have been a very prominent option in your mind to give that child up to someone who could afford to raise it outside of abject poverty. I'm presuming you made a different decision there, too. If your assertion is that no teen should be expected to use contraception, have access to abortion, or put a child they can't afford up for adoption, you're basically holding the entire country hostage to the selfish whims of a legion of horny idiot-children.
Did you just tell a 16yr old to show an ounce of self-control? You're hilarious. Contraception WAS used too btw. Again your solution is getting rid of the child so I'll continue to dismiss your inability to understand reality. The child you suggest I should have given away is a well adjusted, top of his class, and headed for a solid and bright future. Thanks. ( Do all kids in the situation like that end up the same? Of course not, but neither do children in high income families either)

You managed in a world where the minimum wage was even lower. Imagine that. I bet you didn't even consider trying to do so in New York City. I'd wager that if it had been suggested to you to do so, you would have considered the idea insane.
If I had been born and raised in New York City, I wouldn't have had a choice.

That was not what you were doing until this very sentence.
Sure it was, I was just addressing the other issue at the same time. I'm multi-talented like that.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Socialist? You're hilarious and have no idea. Nice try though.
You champion socialist policy at every opportunity. If the shoe fits...


Did you just tell a 16yr old to show an ounce of self-control? You're hilarious.
Yes, I did. Contrary to your self-rationalization, not all 16 year olds are completely incapable of being held responsible for themselves.


Contraception WAS used too btw. Again your solution is getting rid of the child so I'll continue to dismiss your inability to understand reality.
Lots of children are put up for adoption every year, and many pregnancies are terminated. Of the two of us, I don't think I'm the one who is disconnected from reality.


The child you suggest I should have given away is a well adjusted, top of his class, and headed for a solid and bright future. Thanks. ( Do all kids in the situation like that end up the same? Of course not, but neither do children in high income families either)
That's great. It's also completely irrelevant. I'm not saying you made the wrong choice, I'm saying you had choices.



If I had been born and raised in New York City, I wouldn't have had a choice.
As I said, why anybody chooses to live there, much less have kids there, is a mystery for the ages. In the south, you worry about your 16 year old getting (or getting another 16 year old) pregnant. In New York, Chicago, LA... you worry about your 16 year old getting shot. If only gun control actually did anything.


Sure it was, I was just addressing the other issue at the same time. I'm multi-talented like that.
Not as much as you'd think, your misdirection and moving of goalposts is completely transparent.
 
Yeah ok Gas. You keep dreaming the dream.

(inb4loldismissiveresponsemeansIwinresponse)

I simply realize you live in an idealized mindset, that while good on paper, doesn't work in reality. I've seen you miss the mark many times when confronted with a reality that doesn't work against the idealized mindset. Hell the post you just made solidifies that. It's just a Libertarian thing I guess.

I mean there's nothing wrong with seeing things wrong with the world and having ideas that try and make them feel better, just would be interesting to see your response if you ever realized they don't work most of the time when put into practice.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Yeah ok Gas. You keep dreaming the dream.

(inb4loldismissiveresponsemeansIwinresponse)

I simply realize you live in an idealized mindset, that while good on paper, doesn't work in reality. I've seen you miss the mark many times when confronted with a reality that doesn't work against the idealized mindset. Hell the post you just made solidifies that. It's just a Libertarian thing I guess.

I mean there's nothing wrong with seeing things wrong with the world and having ideas that try and make them feel better, just would be interesting to see your response if you ever realized they don't work most of the time when put into practice.
It's not about feeling better. That's where all the trouble really starts, worrying about how things feel. You know, as opposed to how they are. And I'd really like you to explain how ending a teen pregnancy (or giving the child to foster parents) doesn't "work" when it works countless times in every city every year. But again, you've been co-opting the argument and trying to play your fallacious trump card for all it's worth so I don't expect an actual response to any questions, just more lol-u-don't-kno-me-I-kno-better-because-I-actually-made-horrible-life-decisions subjectivity piffle.

You know, I once met a girl who was aggressively dismissive of any male doctor who ever tried to tell her things about what was going on in her own body because they were men and therefore didn't have the subjective experience to really know what was going on. Never mind the years of higher education or certification or years of practice and scientific proof, they just couldn't know because they couldn't experience it themselves. Of course, she also believed with every fibre of her being that if you put a snakeskin on a fence it would force a rainstorm. You're reminding me very much of her at this moment.
 
That's right Gas, all answers with mind, never with feeling. (Get rid of the child, don't bother trying, it's more logical to do it that way) There is a balance you don't care to see. That's the Libertarian way right? Again, paper vs reality.

I'm actually sorry you don't realize that. If someone like you had been around when I was trying to raise my son, he might not have turned out as the great kid he is today. Does adoption/foster care work? Sure, sometimes. Just like raising a kid as a teenager doesn't always work. However, the decision isn't just a purely logical one, it has to be both.

I realize you're just going to dismiss (because you already have) the reality because feelings are involved in the decision process, but that's ok. There's logic and thought behind it as well, even though you don't see it. If you remove the emotional side of decision making and just go with the one that makes the most sense logically you end up with a worse situation in the end.
 
Hold on, I hate ot say this, but Gas isn't saying you should have given up the child for adoption or anything. He's saying you had the choice and chose to keep the baby. Which is your right, and he doesn't deny at all. You're fighting against a fictional opponent here.

Besdies, while I'm a leftie myself...You're proving his point. You show that it can be done, raise a child as a teenager without help, just on a low income wage. So....what's the problem? If you can, why would others need more help?

I don't particularly agree with Gas' ideas, but in this I'm inclined to side with him. You choose to have a baby as a teenager and raise him, that's your choice and it'ss great that it turned out OK. But you don't get to complain about how hard it is, without accepting that these troubles were at least partially of your own making.
 
Bubble181
No, he clearly said it was the -best- decision. His reasoning was fine, but without a single emotional thought behind it. My point to him was that all decisions cannot be made from a 100% -looks good on paper- standpoint. He thought all my reactions were 100% based on emotion, in which I countered that they were a balance of both.

Also, who's complaining it was hard?

I also never said others should be given a living wage either as long as there are other options of assistance available such as food and medical aide because a single mistake shouldn't be a death sentence for anyone, no matter how stupid it was. I'm inclinded to believe you aren't exactly fully following on our conversation.
 
I think Gilgamesh is arguing against (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Gil) the idea that giving a living wage to people who have made large mistakes in life is somehow a reward.
 
I think Gilgamesh is arguing against (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Gil) the idea that giving a living wage to people who have made large mistakes in life is somehow a reward.
It's gotten so way out of hand it's kind of muddled at this point, I think the original argument was:

A living wage is NOT owed to anyone, even those who've made mistakes in life, as long as there is another program in place to assist in basic living needs such as food/medical aide. If there are no such programs, then a living wage would make more sense. It is absolutely not a reward but a living necessity in those situations as anything less would be a death sentence.

Basically a hypothetical situation as thankfully in the US, we don't have to worry about living wages. If there are medical/food aide options for the low income workers in New York, then no, they are not entitled to any kind of living wage and their lawsuit is pointless.
 
All I know is I had to abandon that thread because people started talking about eliminating welfare, and how if we did that people would need a living wage, when I wasn't talking about changes to welfare at all. In retrospect its funny how people change the subject to their own pet peeves rather than reading and responding to what is said, and it seems like that's what's happening here too.
Incorrect, I used that example toward Gas, not toward you.

I wasn't making it about welfare, I simply stated that it's part of the issue with Living Wages, which is the issue you wanted to speak on.
 
Isn't that what always happens, everywhere on these here boards? :p

Anyway Gil, I think we'll have to disagree on how we interpret Gas's posts. He said "it should have been a very prominent option in your mind", he did not say " it's what you should've done". Either way, he's entitled to think it would've been the better decision (I don't agree with him there) to give up the child, one way or another. Even if it was in some weird way possible to prove what the "better" option would be, it still wouldn't matter, as I think we can at least all three agree that it's a decision that's up to you (and the mother).

And I know you didn't say people should be given a living wage if there's other options. I think Gas would say that both a living wage AND those other options are unnecessary, because the market will adjust - if lower wage jobs aren't viable, they'll disappear, be replaced, or become better-paid, or some such. You and I would probably both agree that would be a bad idea, since it'd plunge thousands into poverty and starvation.

The difference between a better-paying job and no welfare, or lower-paying jobs with welfare paid from taxes on wages of other people is, in my mind, relatively small, depending on how social security taxes are collected and how the taxation on lower wage works. Finding a good balance between those is essential to having a system that works. Both the Belgian and the American system seem to be horribly flawed at several different levels, as far as I'm concerned.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I think Gilgamesh is arguing against (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Gil) the idea that giving a living wage to people who have made large mistakes in life is somehow a reward.
Not so much as a reward for mistakes as a disincentive for making good decisions. Why bust your ass studying in high school, get accepted to a good college, then put yourself dozens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a job that starts at $40k/yr when you can coast in class, party, drink and screw your way to dropping out and yet still be assured of 66%-75% of what you would have gotten for buckling down?

Or, to put it another way, why spend all night studying for an A if you can play video games instead and be assured you'll do no worse than a C?
 
Or, to put it another way, why spend all night studying for an A if you can play video games instead and be assured you'll do no worse than a C?
To get past that 30-40K/year and actually better yourself?

If you're concerned about a living wage being a disincentive to work hard when other people work hard and get barely more, then the problem is that middle class income brackets aren't being paid proportionally to their work/value, not that people with low skills in bad neighborhoods might be able to live without food stamps.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
To get past that 30-40K/year and actually better yourself?

If you're concerned about a living wage being a disincentive to work hard when other people work hard and get barely more, then the problem is that middle class income brackets aren't being paid proportionally to their work/value, not that people with low skills in bad neighborhoods might be able to live without food stamps.
I'm concerned about the not insignificant number of people, and we all know them in our personal lives, for whom coasting by on the bare minimum of effort is a way of life. I'm not strictly opposed to safety nets, but it's not supposed to be a hammock.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Says a guy with a mattress in a bedroom?
Says a guy who:
1) is paying for the net
2) has read history and knows that when you give people what they need regardless of what they contribute, the very best you can hope for is stagnation and uniform poverty.

 
Says a guy who:
1) is paying for the net
2) has read history and knows that when you give people what they need regardless of what they contribute, the very best you can hope for is stagnation
You didn't read your history very well if you think that a growing underclass of people who can barely afford food is a good plan for the future.[DOUBLEPOST=1365439017][/DOUBLEPOST]Just to be clear, Gas, are you arguing against living wages being paid to low-skill labor in general, or just instances where businesses can't afford it?

Because whether a business should vs whether a business can right now are two different things.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You didn't read your history very well if you think that a growing underclass of people who can barely afford food is a good plan for the future.
Milton Friedman is smarter than you. Since you can't be bothered to click play, I'll transcribe.

"The only cases in which the masses have escaped from the grinding poverty you're talking about - the only cases in recorded history - are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it's exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So the record of history is absolutely crystal clear - that there is no alternative way (so far discovered) of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system."[DOUBLEPOST=1365439537][/DOUBLEPOST]
Just to be clear, Gas, are you arguing against living wages being paid to low-skill labor in general, or just instances where businesses can't afford it?

Because whether a business should vs whether a business can right now are two different things.
I'm against artificially inflating wages on the basis of institutionalized, redistributive government charity. Take it to its logical extreme - why not set the minimum wage at $20 an hour? The same argument against that works as well for an argument of a minimum wage at any "living" level. If you want a living wage, make it so that what you do is worth one. All a "living" minimum wage will do is increase unskilled/low skilled unemployment.
 
GasBandit: Poor people's problem is that they can't lift themselves up with their boostraps! Everyone who's poor is that way cause they're lazy! Now who does that remind me of?

:rofl:
 

GasBandit

Staff member
GasBandit: Lift yourself up from your boostraps! Now who does that remind me of?

:rofl:
Would you have had an easier time having no job at all because any business dumb enough to hire you would have to pay you 10, 15, 20 dollars an hour regardless of your ability to perform? Or would you rather have had some money and experiencing coming in rather than none?
 
Would you have had an easier time having no job at all because any business dumb enough to hire you would have to pay you 10, 15, 20 dollars an hour regardless of your ability to perform? Or would you rather have had some money and experiencing coming in rather than none?
Again, I'm against a living wage as a sole option for a lower income family. Not sure what you're trying to convince me of.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Again, I'm against a living wage as a sole option for a lower income family. Not sure what you're trying to convince me of.
Ah, ah, ah, you're changing the argument again. We're talking about the minimum wage and only the minimum wage.
All I know is I had to abandon that thread because people started talking about eliminating welfare, and how if we did that people would need a living wage, when I wasn't talking about changes to welfare at all.
 
Shit, you're just catching on to that now? Why did you think arguing with him was so maddening?
I was thought he was more of a "quibble over the exact tax rate" kind of libertarian, not a "you'll pry my taxes out of my cold, dead hands" kind of libertarian!
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Wait, Gas, you actually believe we're not living in a capitalist, largely free trade society? Really?! 'Cause holy shit.
We're scrambling away from it as fast as we can, and have been doing so for quite a while. Everywhere around us are the increasingly invasive trappings of statism and socialist thought. How the rich aren't "paying their fair share" when basically they already pay more than half the total. How "you didn't build" your business because you put it on a road. How government spending only ever goes up.

I mean, did you read the link I posted last week about how the Obama administration is pressuring banks to basically reinstitute the practice of "sub prime" home loans? You know, that thing that nearly KILLED THE WORLD ECONOMY a few years ago that we still haven't recovered from? Because capitalism be damned, people feel better in houses they own. There is a host of social programs and subsidies. There are bailouts. And this is a critique of crony capitalists as well as socialists - You can't privatize profit while nationalizing risk and still call yourself a capitalist entity.
 

Dave

Staff member
What we're running into here is a head-on collision of two equally divergent truths. First, raising the minimum wage does not help anyone!! Why? Because it artificially inflates the cost of goods and services at the same - or increased - rate of the wage increase. Basically, because businesses need to pay out more, that amount gets passed on to the consumers, making everything cost more and ensuring that more workers - who may have been making above minimum wage before the change - will now be set at the minimum. All this does is ensure that even less people are now making a living wage.

On the other side we have the reality that because of fiscal policies set up by the government like deregulation and "too big to fail", a living wage is set higher and higher every year and is largely unattainable for a great portion of the nation. These people trying to make a living wage are being forced to either work themselves to death to stay even, or resort to governmental assistance. To them, a raising of the minimum wage seems like a good thing, because people like that (a group of which I belong, by the way) have a tendency to only look at things on the short term. mainly because they have to.

So what's the answer?

  • Take money out of politics. Get rid of Citizens United, do not allow congressmen to become lobbyists at all, and institute campaign finance limitations with transparent donations.
  • Start regulating key industries again and give them the ability to actually do something about it. Banking, environment, and ATF immediately come to mind for things which have been deregulated that should never have been.
  • Decriminalize drugs. The marginalizing of an entire underclass of society needs to stop. The privatization of our prison system has created a revolving door of recidivism as those getting out of jail are finding nowhere to turn for a job or a way to support themselves or a family. The demonization ensures that these people would be hard pressed to have an outcome other than a return to the lifestyle that got them in trouble in the first place. In other words, our privatized prisons - in my opinion - makes more criminals than it rehabilitates.
  • Make it so that congressmen do not get a pension and must have privately purchased insurance plans. When they start to feel the burn, things might happen. Until then they have no incentive to do anything but blow hot air.
These are just for starters. I know that none of them will ever happen as the only people that can make them happen make a shit-ton of money keeping the status quo. It is now more about keeping your power and political party happy than taking care of those who elected you in the first place.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I was thought he was more of a "quibble over the exact tax rate" kind of libertarian, not a "you'll pry my taxes out of my cold, dead hands" kind of libertarian!
No, I do acknowledge that some government is necessary and it has to be paid for somehow. But there's a difference between paying for the operations of government and the mandatory redistribution of wealth.

The government has spent 15 trillion dollars on the "war on poverty." How's that worked out?
 

Dave

Staff member
No, I do acknowledge that some government is necessary and it has to be paid for somehow. But there's a difference between paying for the operations of government and the mandatory redistribution of wealth.

The government has spent 15 trillion dollars on the "war on poverty." How's that worked out?
About the same as the war on drugs, the war on obesity, ....
 
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