[Webcomic] The Order of the Stick thread

Piotyr

Piotyr

Rich has been dealing with a ton of (over-the-top) criticism on the recent turn of events with MITD, so he made a long post about how much of the comic he's had planned:

Rich Burlew said:
Just to give an idea of how much the plot is planned, here's a story that will likely end up in the commentary for the next book in a different format:

One of the things I may have mentioned in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is that while strip #1 was always the first comic, strip #4 was actually the next one produced. Before I posted it, however, I produced another strip that has never been posted; we'll call it #A.

The events depicted in #A can be summarized as follows: Elan and Haley walk on stage to where Roy is waiting. Looking sad and crying, they inform Roy that they met some undead, and Durkon turned undead. Roy is confused, they reiterate. Roy gets annoyed, says that Durkon's a cleric, so of course he turned undead, stop being so stupid. Haley and Elan walk back to the left where V and Belkar are restraining a Durkon that is a vampire—he literally turned into an undead. They make a crack about how Roy took it really well. Ba dum bump.

I did not post this strip; instead, I went back and decided that rather than one-off gags, I wanted each strip to feed into the events of the next. So I wrote #2 and #3 to get from the already-posted #1 to the already-finished (and now renumbered) #4. But that left me with #A, which if I posted it, would derail my fledgling sense of continuity, because I had no way to undo Durkon's vampirism. In the end, I tabled the joke and drew #5 instead.

However, as a result of that comic, it has always been true that someday, Durkon was going to turn into a vampire. At first, I was just going to save the joke for a day when they would have access to the means to undo it, and then later, I decided to drop the punchline and really make it a major part of what happens. But as a plot element, it literally predates the existence of the Snarl, or the Gates, or any other aspect of the plot—even Xykon himself! All of Durkon's characterization and plot, since 2003, has been leading to him becoming a vampire and the story that would spin out of that. It has influenced hundreds of decisions going back ten years of comic.

So when I post the comic where Malack kills Durkon, and then raises him as a vampire, it is not a valid criticism to come here and say, "You shouldn't have done that, you ruined the comic, Durkon should have won." The comic you're reading is the way it is for the purpose of turning Durkon into a vampire! Malack was created for the purpose of turning Durkon into a vampire! There was no possible scenario where you would be reading a Malack vs. Durkon fight scene that didn't end with Durkon getting vamped.

That's what I mean when I say that the big plot points are not really open to criticism. At a certain point, that's just the story this happens to be, and we can argue about execution, but it's still happening one way or the other.
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ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Holy crap. To both the most recent strip and Rich's comments.

Regarding the strip? I think it can be summed up with my favourite running gag in this thread. Nale: Not an idiot.

Regarding Rich's comments? Holy crap, he's been planning Durkon's vampirism since the early inception of the comic? Wow. I've always had faith in him for his long-term planning as a storyteller, but wow. That just earns him all sorts of new respect for him in my book.
 
Gusto

Gusto

Piotyr said:
You a masochist or you have a beef with recent comic events? :)
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Neither, just fun to read a dissenting viewpoint every once in a while. No offence to you guys, but the large extent of conversation in this thread is generally "Here's the new strip, and everyone loves it."

Sometimes I like a little discourse. :)
 
Hylian

Hylian

I must admit that I did not see that coming, I mean I knew it would happen eventually but I was not expecting it quite so suddenly.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

So I've been skimming through that thread linked and my thought is basically this: the original poster doesn't understand writing or storytelling conventions. He also claims the the Monster in the Darkness is stupid when it's been pretty clear he's not and is, in fact, just childish and naive.
 
Piotyr

Piotyr

ThatNickGuy said:
Holy crap. To both the most recent strip and Rich's comments.

Regarding the strip? I think it can be summed up with my favourite running gag in this thread. Nale: Not an idiot.

Regarding Rich's comments? Holy crap, he's been planning Durkon's vampirism since the early inception of the comic? Wow. I've always had faith in him for his long-term planning as a storyteller, but wow. That just earns him all sorts of new respect for him in my book.
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I'll be looking forward to a new character by the name of Burlew the Giant in your next book. ;)
 
Dei

Dei

I feel like that scene worked just because Xykon is a cocky arrogant bastard who wouldn't really see the Order as a threat. The only two who even gave him a run for his money were V and O'Chul, who MITD rightly pointed out, were not present. It's very in character for him. Hence why Redcloak always probably has a persistent migraine. ;)
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
Holy crap I did NOT see that coming!!
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Yup. Even with the foreshadowing in panel #3 & #4 (and even panel #2 if you count the fact that his wounds are unchanged after drinking the obviously non-red potion), you still don't expect panel #5, and, even as you're reading panel #5, your brain is still in that cognitive dissonance/adrenaline denial state, until the merry-go-round in your head can finally bring you back around to what is going on as opposed to what you thought was going to happen.
Back in February Dave said:
Think about this, though. The sheer fucking planning that went into this! How long ago was it announced about Belkar? I mean, we all assumed the easy way out and NONE of us saw this coming! Sheer bloody genius. And they are stick figures!!! Can you imagine someone with Scott Kurtz's artistic talent with this level of storytelling? Boggles the mind.
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Doesn't it? :)
Gusto said:
Sometimes I like a little discourse. :)
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FWIW, I'm disappointed to lose Malack. I respect the character, he was very well done...but this should come as no surprise since I also found Kulle to be the best character in D3.

--Patrick
 
Gusto

Gusto

ThatNickGuy said:
So I've been skimming through that thread linked and my thought is basically this: the original poster doesn't understand writing or storytelling conventions. He also claims the the Monster in the Darkness is stupid when it's been pretty clear he's not and is, in fact, just childish and naive.
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Here's a quick poignant quote I just came across:

"I don't object to someone not liking the MiTD's character arc, but not even realizing that the MiTD has a character arc isn't a valid opinion, any more than saying "what gate?" is a valid opinion about gates."[DOUBLEPOST=1375125121][/DOUBLEPOST]
Dei said:
I feel like that scene worked just because Xykon is a cocky arrogant bastard who wouldn't really see the Order as a threat. The only two who even gave him a run for his money were V and O'Chul, who MITD rightly pointed out, were not present. It's very in character for him. Hence why Redcloak always probably has a persistent migraine. ;)
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I saw that scene worknig since Xykon needs very little convincing these days to accept any plan that would piss of or deny Redcloak.
 
Shawn

Shawn

With Malack dead does Durkon gain his will back? I seem to recall that a master vampire can release a thrall at any time, however if a vampire is destroyed any thralls linked to it will gain control over themselves. This does not mean that Durkon will be a good-guy again. Technically his alignment has shifted to evil. However he might think he has control over those evil urges, when in fact he does not. It will likely be an intense battle over self corruption for him.[DOUBLEPOST=1375170403][/DOUBLEPOST]
Piotyr said:
Rich has been dealing with a ton of (over-the-top) criticism on the recent turn of events with MITD, so he made a long post about how much of the comic he's had planned:
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I really don't know what's up with the criticism. I LOVE the story so far. Was I upset that Durkon turned into a vampire. Yes. But in that way that I'm invested in the story so much that when bad things happen I accept them as part of the ongoing story. Good drama is formed from the bonds we have with our characters. His vampirism wouldn't mean anything if we were not invested in the character. Plus it fit so beautifully into the woven story. His friendship with Malack, his dedication to eradicate undead beings, and how it fits so perfectly into his prophecy. I mean how many of us guessed that by "posthumously" the prophet actually meant that Durkon would be walking into his home city as a vampire? Because of that, I knew he had been planning this for a long time.
Fuck the critics. If they don't want to be surprised they should just stick to reading Garfield.
 
Jax

Jax

Holy fucking crap.

I wanted to say: "Nale, also not an idiot".. but Holy Fucking Crap![DOUBLEPOST=1375202695][/DOUBLEPOST]
Gusto said:
Neither, just fun to read a dissenting viewpoint every once in a while. No offence to you guys, but the large extent of conversation in this thread is generally "Here's the new strip, and everyone loves it."

Sometimes I like a little discourse. :)
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Have you tried the PVP thread yet? ;)
 
Gusto

Gusto

Yeah much as I'm in there defending it from biased arguements occasionally, I'm willing to go to a place where I can read dissension of OotS.

That thread was interesting though. And now I don't have anything to read today.
 
Allen who is Quiet

Allen who is Quiet

Jax said:
Nale was acting under the belief that Tarquin was already a threat. Do you think Tarquin would not have allowed Malak to have his revenge on Nale after their cooperation was over?
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I believe giving a man who is in control of an entire continent an extremely personal reason to hate you is dumb.

And Malak was practical. He and Tarquin would have worked something out that would have been mutually beneficial.

ThatNickGuy said:
I think Tarquin might be impressed by Nale's initiative. He might slap him on the back and say something like, "Finally! You grow a pair!"
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The possibility does exist. Tarquin would certainly approve of stabbing your nemesis in the back. If I had to put money on it, Tarquin is going to approve initially, but this is a ruse and he attempts to fuck Nale over later.
 
Shawn

Shawn

I think the greatest difference between Tarquin and Nale is their level of patience and their egos. Nale is always quick to act, and his father slow to conquer. And when it comes to ego Nale wants everyone to know who is charge, whereas Tarquin prefers a more subtle approach to avoid becoming a target himself.
I'm going to put all my chips in for Tarquin knowing fully well that Nale was going to take out Malack. Tarquin left for very mysterious reasons and would have known that Nale could easily take Malack in a fight because 1) Malack had just been in a fight and used up some defenses. 2)He would know that his son packs protection from energy drain potions, and 3) Malack would be defenseless in the sun if his protection spell was removed. Tarquin may not have been able to foresee the destruction of the temple, but it would have been just as easy for Nale to make his move after they had left it's protection.
I think Tarquin is thinning the herd. His son is useful after all.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Shawnacy said:
I think the greatest difference between Tarquin and Nale is their level of patience and their egos. Nale is always quick to act, and his father slow to conquer. And when it comes to ego Nale wants everyone to know who is charge, whereas Tarquin prefers a more subtle approach to avoid becoming a target himself.
I'm going to put all my chips in for Tarquin knowing fully well that Nale was going to take out Malack. Tarquin left for very mysterious reasons and would have known that Nale could easily take Malack in a fight because 1) Malack had just been in a fight and used up some defenses. 2)He would know that his son packs protection from energy drain potions, and 3) Malack would be defenseless in the sun if his protection spell was removed. Tarquin may not have been able to foresee the destruction of the temple, but it would have been just as easy for Nale to make his move after they had left it's protection.
I think Tarquin is thinning the herd. His son is useful after all.
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I definitely think he knew the two would fight. I'm not convinced he was *sure* who'd win - but I'm not sure he cared very much, either. One way or another, a potential threat to his own throne is removed, and another temporary ally/liability is forced to show his hand. If Malack had beaten Nale, it would've just proven Nale wasn't ready and wasn't useful. Now, it's shown that Malack had outlived (sic) his usefulness and could be replaced.
 
Jax

Jax

Was Malak ever after the proverbial throne then?

Wait, let's sketch a broader picture here. Did Tarquin ever consider Malak as a potential threat? I was under the impression that Malak was a pretty good.. uhmm partner / sidekick / member of his staff?
 
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