Apparently so am I.
Or at least that's what it sounds like.
I mean, there's plenty of times I've been too close to something to really see what it is, I'm glad I have other people who are happy to give me other perspectives.
--Patrick
[News] The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
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Or at least that's what it sounds like.
I mean, there's plenty of times I've been too close to something to really see what it is, I'm glad I have other people who are happy to give me other perspectives.
--Patrick
The thing about a focus movement is that THEY ARE FOCUSED ON A PARTICULAR ISSUE. That doesn't make other issues less valid, but they aren't issues that movement is dealing with. For example, Relay for Life is about combating cancer. It doesn't mean they're opposed to curing auto-immune diseases, for example, just that they're focused on cancer. In the same way, #BlackLivesMatter doesn't mean there isn't injustice against other groups, it means that they're focusing on the disproportionately high rate of excessive force against African-Americans by police with little to no consequences. African-Americans represent about 13% of the US population, but make up more than 25% of those killed by police, more than double the rate of white offenders per capita. Coupled with that is the fact that prosecutors are extremely unwilling to push for a trial of police officers accused of misconduct - only 11% of police brutality cases go to trial.
So it doesn't make other issues invalid, it's just bringing to light a particular situation which badly needs attention.
Edited: Forgot to mention racially baised policies such as "Stop and Frisk", and racial profiling by NJ State Troopers along the major interstates - essentially, police were "encouraged" to pull over "(black guys) driving too nice a car".
So it doesn't make other issues invalid, it's just bringing to light a particular situation which badly needs attention.
Edited: Forgot to mention racially baised policies such as "Stop and Frisk", and racial profiling by NJ State Troopers along the major interstates - essentially, police were "encouraged" to pull over "(black guys) driving too nice a car".
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Oh come on. You can't honestly criticize officers for the way they handled it. He was refusing to follow directions, given multiple warnings, and reaching to his waistband repeatedly.
Yeah, I can. They had their guns out immediately. They claim they suspected him of being a man reportedly walking around with a rifle - do you see a rifle anywhere in any of that? Instead of trying to calm the situation down, the officers escalated it with increased threat and aggression. At what point in the video did he become a threat justifying lethal response?
When he was waling towards them, with his hand hidden behind his back, refusing to comply with requests and commands?
Admittedly, it was too hard too much...But with tempers and nerves on edge, I can't blame them for shooting the first time. I don't know how much of an idiot you have to be to walk towards two cops with their weapons drawn, and keep your hand hidden behind your back like that. It looked for all the world as if he was going to pull out a gun and shoot.
Doesn't that set an impossible goal to reach, though, if you're not allowed to solve a problem unless all other related problems are also solved at the same time? Isn't that like telling people who support breast cancer charities that they're stealing money/research away from other cancers, and that they shouldn't campaign for breast cancer research/cures unless they're going to campaign for every other form of cancer at the same time? Why should it be the responsibility of breast cancer survivors to campaign for all other cancer research? What injustice are they causing by trying to solve a specific problem that directly affects them?
I'm not talking about the ones fighting for one cause, but those against other causes; or who narrow the scope to exactly one problem. See: Anti-trans-feminists; anti-trans gay lobbyists, etc. I've been told, literally, to my face, that, as an able cis white guy, I don't face any hardships in life or can't know what it's like being a victim, that I can't know what it feels like. Look around on this forum and I think you'll see plenty of white guys who have serious issues, too. Fight for your own issues, don't minimize or deny the existence of other issues. Fighting for breast cancer doesn't mean you have to deny testicular cancer's an issue. Or, to name something else I've seen, deny male breast cancer is a thing. I've heard activists claim breast cancer is a "female" problem. I have a former colleague who would disagree, considering he had most of his chest muscles removed because of it.
You laugh, but SOME people (nobody on this forum, of course (I assume)) seem to think that upping the percentage of white people killed IS a proper response to this, which is sheer lunacy (but that hasn't stopped people before).
Some people just get too emotional for anyone's good, I guess.
I do see people joining one cause and promoting that cause as being better than other causes, rather than admitting how it would be perfectly fine for them to coexist with other causes. It's still a form of factionalism.
EDIT: Bubble just said that.
--Patrick
Every cause has its idiots. Extremists are always bad. They have their heads jammed so far up their own asses, they don't see the damage they are doing to their own causes by alienating people. Who needs allies, amirite? But that doesn't mean the underlying cause is bad or that every person who supports the cause is a jerk. And BLM can't control who uses the hashtag or who shows up at a protest with a BLM sign or t-shirt.
It looks like he continually keeps trying to reach for something. I don't know what he was trying to get, or why he kept doing that, or even if he was thinking clearly during any of it, but from the view of the police officers (or at least the view provided by that body camera) he does look like he's exhibiting potentially dangerous behavior.
It's really sad, and unfortunate, but it doesn't look like the police officers did anything wrong. Could they have initiated the first contact better? Possibly, I don't know. I wonder if tasers could have been used in that scenario to incapacitate him, but I'm certainly not an expert on how effective they are, or if those officers even had them.
You don't draw a taser on someone who may pose a deadly threat in any way. If there's a possibility they may deploy deadly force during your encounter you deploy deadly force.
The only time you use a taser is if they are resisting and do not pose a deadly threat. Some departments allow taser use when someone is passively resisting (though usually tear gas is used at this point), while others restrict tasers to those who are aggressively resisting.
Tasering someone who may already have his finger around a trigger may be somewhat counterproductive, it's true
GasBandit
Staff member
GasBandit
Staff member
The loudmouths are in charge.
I want to give examples of how this kind of thinking is wrong, but since donating for a cure to cancer was already given as an example, there's no more extreme to push it to to get you to understand. An Everything Matters cause wouldn't accomplish anything, not even raise awareness, because it has no focal point. That's not how humans operate.
#AllLivesMatter is not a functional model and was never meant to be. #AllLivesMatter exists solely to counter #BlackLivesMatter because #ShutUpBlackPeople wasn't as catchy a hashtag. I posted the Jon Stewart video because your posts on the last page express annoyance that this is something you have to hear about. There can be a cry for justice and research, but if it was just research, no one would be hearing about it or paying attention. If All Lives Matter really meant that, they would be protesting over the police killings too.
Which are things they shouldn't be doing, but my point was trying to clear up what PatrThom wasn't understanding. I'm not trying to skewer him over this. I genuinely think PatrThom is confused about elements of this (and as he said, about himself) and wants to understand.
Getting back to which, I comprehend some having the sentiment of "hey, I got problems, why's no one rallying for me?" There is nothing stopping one from starting an Everything movement. o you honestly think the not-black people supporting BLM are leading somehow perfect lives? It is possible to have your own problems and be outraged over what's happening, and actually outraged, not "this tragedy doth break my heart--now to ponder how the victim could've avoided this fate" pretend sympathy a couple people on here have.
Thank you for the clarification. I am annoyed by this, but not merely because I have to hear about it. My annoyance is because the ones I most often hear it from seem to be the ones who are most interested in stirring up trouble, making noise, etc., rather than actually working for a solution, i.e. all they are saying is I AM ANGRY AND THIS MAKES ME MAD RAAAAGE but aren't actually proposing any solution or meaningfully contributing to their advertised #cause.
And rather than inspiring me towards anything, this just makes me want to shut them out.
That's horrible, and a waste.
I mean, I don't care what color that guy's skin was. What is it that made him think, "I'd rather die than possibly go to jail for theft?"
I also believe the response was the appropriate level for the threat presented. Good on the officers for getting him outside prior to the opportunity for fireworks.
--Patrick
And then there's the idiot singing my national anthem at the all star game, who thinks it's at all sensible to change some lyrics to "all lives matter."
Another part of the issue is that there seems to be a vastly different method of handling suspects not based on what they're doing, but on their race. For example, there are cases of white people literally pointing their gun at law enforcement officers and not having lethal force used, but even in this thread you have people saying that a black guy not listening to commands and may possibly have been armed justifies lethal force.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/her...guns-at-police-officers-and-didnt-get-killed/
Joseph Houseman was drunk, carrying a loaded rifle at a Dairy Queen, a repeatedly threatened cops. The police spent 40 minutes talking to him in a standoff. Dylan Noble, who *might* have had a gun, but didn't, was shot dead in about 2 minutes.
Lance Tamayo had a 9mm pistol that he repeatedly pointed at police and small children playing nearby at a local park. Police eventually shot him once after 45 minutes of talking, then spent another 15 minutes convincing him to surrender before taking him for medical treatment. Alton Sterling was supposedly reaching for a gun with an officer sitting on one arm and the other held against a car when he was repeatedly shot in the back while on the ground.
EJ Watson got out of his truck and waved a revolver at another driver and his son, who called 911. Police arrested Watson a few miles away after being physically removed from the truck, which was found to have many empty beer cans and a loaded Smith & Wesson on the seat. He had been arrested for a separate drunken road rage incident 3 months prior. Philando Castile was shot to death for reaching for his license and registration while being black.
Jesse Delflorio, 22, of New Hampshire fired his BB gun from his apartment building at officers who were making a routine traffic stop nearby. He was on probation for shooting at other people with a BB gun previously. Tamir Rice, 12, was holding a toy gun when he was shot to death by police who considered him "to be dangerous".
In Idaho, two drunk men entered a Walmart, opened up BB guns in the sporting goods section and started shooting around the store with them. They were arrested after being called by security. John Crawford III took a BB gun off the shelf in another Walmart and was walking around the door with it while talking on his cell phone. He did not load it, and on video doesn't appear to point it at anyone. He was shot and killed by police in the store in under 1 minute.
Jed Frazier had driven his car off the road into a ditch. When officers approached, he pointed a handgun at them. Police took cover and tried to talk him down. Finally they broke the windows of his car, pulled him out, and disarmed him, without firing a shot. Delrawn Small was shot while approaching an off-duty officer's personal car during a dispute at a red light. The officer claimed that Small had punched him, traffic camera footage showed the officer opening fire as Small was approaching his vehicle.
Julia Shields of Tennessee was wearing body armor while she drove around, shooting at other cars and officers and leading them on a brief chase. She was arrested without injury. Deravis Rogers was shot to death by a police officer while attempting to leave a parking lot. The officer claims that there was a report of "someone trying to break into cars" at the scene, but there was no evidence that Rogers was as a suspect, nor that there were any break-ins at the location. In an unusual case, the officer in question was fired for using excessive force.
Steven Whitlock of Pheonix responded to firefighters conducting a welfare check by answering the door with a loaded gun in his hand. The firefighters took cover, Whitlock grabbed the equipment they dropped and barricaded himself in his apartment. Police attempted to talk him into surrendering before breaking into the apartment and taking him into custody. Darius Robinson, 41, died in custody after being arrested for failure to pay child support. He had been sprayed with pepper spray and put in a chokehold while in holding and died of "asphyxiation due to manual compression of the neck".
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/her...guns-at-police-officers-and-didnt-get-killed/
Joseph Houseman was drunk, carrying a loaded rifle at a Dairy Queen, a repeatedly threatened cops. The police spent 40 minutes talking to him in a standoff. Dylan Noble, who *might* have had a gun, but didn't, was shot dead in about 2 minutes.
Lance Tamayo had a 9mm pistol that he repeatedly pointed at police and small children playing nearby at a local park. Police eventually shot him once after 45 minutes of talking, then spent another 15 minutes convincing him to surrender before taking him for medical treatment. Alton Sterling was supposedly reaching for a gun with an officer sitting on one arm and the other held against a car when he was repeatedly shot in the back while on the ground.
EJ Watson got out of his truck and waved a revolver at another driver and his son, who called 911. Police arrested Watson a few miles away after being physically removed from the truck, which was found to have many empty beer cans and a loaded Smith & Wesson on the seat. He had been arrested for a separate drunken road rage incident 3 months prior. Philando Castile was shot to death for reaching for his license and registration while being black.
Jesse Delflorio, 22, of New Hampshire fired his BB gun from his apartment building at officers who were making a routine traffic stop nearby. He was on probation for shooting at other people with a BB gun previously. Tamir Rice, 12, was holding a toy gun when he was shot to death by police who considered him "to be dangerous".
In Idaho, two drunk men entered a Walmart, opened up BB guns in the sporting goods section and started shooting around the store with them. They were arrested after being called by security. John Crawford III took a BB gun off the shelf in another Walmart and was walking around the door with it while talking on his cell phone. He did not load it, and on video doesn't appear to point it at anyone. He was shot and killed by police in the store in under 1 minute.
Jed Frazier had driven his car off the road into a ditch. When officers approached, he pointed a handgun at them. Police took cover and tried to talk him down. Finally they broke the windows of his car, pulled him out, and disarmed him, without firing a shot. Delrawn Small was shot while approaching an off-duty officer's personal car during a dispute at a red light. The officer claimed that Small had punched him, traffic camera footage showed the officer opening fire as Small was approaching his vehicle.
Julia Shields of Tennessee was wearing body armor while she drove around, shooting at other cars and officers and leading them on a brief chase. She was arrested without injury. Deravis Rogers was shot to death by a police officer while attempting to leave a parking lot. The officer claims that there was a report of "someone trying to break into cars" at the scene, but there was no evidence that Rogers was as a suspect, nor that there were any break-ins at the location. In an unusual case, the officer in question was fired for using excessive force.
Steven Whitlock of Pheonix responded to firefighters conducting a welfare check by answering the door with a loaded gun in his hand. The firefighters took cover, Whitlock grabbed the equipment they dropped and barricaded himself in his apartment. Police attempted to talk him into surrendering before breaking into the apartment and taking him into custody. Darius Robinson, 41, died in custody after being arrested for failure to pay child support. He had been sprayed with pepper spray and put in a chokehold while in holding and died of "asphyxiation due to manual compression of the neck".
And that's your choice. But them shutting up is what was going on before and it wasn't working. These incidents didn't begin in 2015; we just weren't hearing about them so much.
I agree about the present threat level, on this and on the waistband guy on the last page.
There's never going to be perfection, I think any reasonable person is aware of that, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have better police training and better screening for personal prejudices, even if those are less the hate kind of prejudice and more the fear kind of prejudice. That way there isn't an officer who tells a guy to get out his license and registration, but starts firing like a psycho because he's frightened just talking to a black guy.
I don't have the time, but I wonder if I could cherry pick police encounters where a black suspect with a gun was brought in peacefully while a white unarmed suspect was killed.
I don't think anybody disagrees with the fact that there's a problem, and that we need to work toward a better solution. There's a connection to race, and whether that connection is actually due to poverty or due to institutional racism doesn't matter - we need to figure out a way to fix it.
My point is that making long lists of comparisons shouldn't be useful - you should be able to simply point to the list of injustices against black people and say, "This is wrong, let's fix it." By making comparison lists, though, you're essentially leaving yourself open to someone else's efforts showing the opposite with their cherry picked list essentially ruining the foundation of your argument, and possibly promoting the all lives matter 'movement'.
Well, one way to fix it would be for white officers to use the same de-escalation and restraint they show with armed white people when dealing with unarmed black people. I think that would be a big step.
And you know, Steinman, that's at least the second time you've objected to specifics being used in this subject. First it was "don't show videos of it happening, because that might theoretically desensitize people", now it's "don't use a list of specific cases because that might theoretically be countered". And yet, without video evidence and specific cases, I seem to recall people questioning whether it's really an issue at all. I would say that by using concrete examples of misconduct, we can come to an agreement that, yes, based on evidence, there is in fact a problem in training, conduct, and execution.
And you know, Steinman, that's at least the second time you've objected to specifics being used in this subject. First it was "don't show videos of it happening, because that might theoretically desensitize people", now it's "don't use a list of specific cases because that might theoretically be countered". And yet, without video evidence and specific cases, I seem to recall people questioning whether it's really an issue at all. I would say that by using concrete examples of misconduct, we can come to an agreement that, yes, based on evidence, there is in fact a problem in training, conduct, and execution.
.Sure. If that's the root cause of the problem. What if, instead, it's that the police working in poverty stricken areas simply run into more violent situations and thus have a much heavier hand earlier in the encounter than police working in wealthy areas?
In other words, the stories are important, but the root cause isn't clear. Perhaps you could amend your list to show whether the suspects or police involved in each encounter lived/worked in poverty stricken areas to show me that it's not an issue of poverty, and is strictly a racial bias.
I'm pointing out that your technique to convince people of your argument has a flaw. I'm not telling you not to use it. Go ahead and build your argument on a weak foundation if you believe that's the best way to convey your point. I thought I was being helpful pointing out a weakness in your argument, but I can see now that it's not useful to you.
Let me re-iterate, that post was a critique of the media's obsession with showing, and re-showing the deaths of minorities, not suggesting that you or anyone here should suppress the videos in any way.
I'm sorry you understood me to be suggesting that we shouldn't discuss specifics.
My official position: We should also be discussing specifics.
Hopefully this clears things up for you.
Hmm.
I wonder if that isn't part of the reason for my incredulity.
I grew up as a naïve White kid in a school system that was 70% Black, in an area of the country with a high concentration of Black people, and even a statistically significant portion of my in-laws are Black, so when someone says, "scared of Black people," I guess I just can't relate. Black people aren't scary to me. People holding a gun, high on drugs, acting erratically...these are all things that are scary, but the color of someone's skin? I'd be more concerned about how much of the whites of their eyes are showing. I'm forced to admit that I haven't lost as much naïveté as I would like, and also that I've been sufficiently inculcated with institutionalized racism (as has anyone else in the USA) that I can't legitimately say, "I'm not part of the problem," but I'm still gonna say that the loudmouth extremists are not doing the movement any favors, and that with their current antics they're gonna get lumped in the same "ignore these people" area of my head as the Westboro folks, and they'll have earned it.
--Patrick
I can't say the percentage was the same for me, but I can relate in that I grew up and always lived in areas with a lot of mixed population. This versus my wife who tells me in Ohio her high school had just one student who was black. When I was a kid, I had no idea there were places like that; I just assumed everywhere was as mixed as where I grew up.
I'm less concerned about the BLM as an organization and more the point of all this, that measures need to be taken to improve the system and the individuals in the system. Whether they stick around or lose traction or the FBI attacks them or they make positive change, I have no idea.
Then there's this case: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/rho...lt-but-video-reveals-they-attacked-him-first/
Last September, two Providence police officers were on duty as patrons spilled out of a Broad Street club at closing time. Fajardo says police tried to make him leave the club.
“I told him I worked there,” Fajardo said. The club belongs to his uncle. The police officer reportedly responded with indifference, ordering Fajardo to “Get the fuck out of here.”
Accounts differ as to what happened next, but security video from the club showed Fajardo scuffling with an unnamed officer, who later claimed in court that Fajardo assaulted him.
The officer punched Fajardo multiple times, hit him with a flashlight and pepper sprayed him.
“I stepped away. You can see it in the video,” said Fajardo to WPRI. “He grabbed me, punched my face, hit me with a flashlight. I was just trying to save my life.”
The officer said that Fajardo punched him with his left arm, but Fajardo pointed out that his left hand has been deformed since birth and cannot even make a fist.
“There was no way for me to make a fist,” Fajardo said. “Especially with my left hand,” which has no movable fingers.
Last September, two Providence police officers were on duty as patrons spilled out of a Broad Street club at closing time. Fajardo says police tried to make him leave the club.
“I told him I worked there,” Fajardo said. The club belongs to his uncle. The police officer reportedly responded with indifference, ordering Fajardo to “Get the fuck out of here.”
Accounts differ as to what happened next, but security video from the club showed Fajardo scuffling with an unnamed officer, who later claimed in court that Fajardo assaulted him.
The officer punched Fajardo multiple times, hit him with a flashlight and pepper sprayed him.
“I stepped away. You can see it in the video,” said Fajardo to WPRI. “He grabbed me, punched my face, hit me with a flashlight. I was just trying to save my life.”
The officer said that Fajardo punched him with his left arm, but Fajardo pointed out that his left hand has been deformed since birth and cannot even make a fist.
“There was no way for me to make a fist,” Fajardo said. “Especially with my left hand,” which has no movable fingers.
This video, which was just released yesterday, breaks down the outrageously racist foolishness that Black folk must deal with from police on a daily basis.
24-year-old Patrick Mumford was sitting in his own car in February, 2016 when he was confronted by three Savannah-Chatham Metropolitan Police Department Officers, who were serving a warrant FOR ANOTHER MAN, Michael Clay.
The lead officer confronts Patrick but does not believe Patrick when he truthfully identifies himself to the officer, twice. Patrick rightfully asks the officers what is the matter and to see the arrest warrant they say they are serving.
Fearful and confused, Patrick retreats into the passenger seat of his car. Within 38 seconds of his initial introduction to the officers, the lead officer is ordering Patrick to be tased for non-compliance.
It takes a violent use of force for officers to realize what we already know: they have the wrong guy.
Rather than apologize, the officers rationalize and justify their actions to horrified neighbors and even Patrick's parents. These rationalizations include the repeated false statement that the officers asked Patrick for his ID.
Patrick is arrested for obstruction. As a non-violent drug offender serving in a first-offender probation program, a pending probation violation could cost him his job, his college education, and seven years in prison: all for sitting in his own car, minding his own business, and telling the truth.
I'm really interested to see how people attempt to defend this.
First off, I didn't watch the video - I'm at work, so I'm going by your description. I reserve the right to withdraw anything I say and change my mind after viewing it.
Secondly, I don't feel any need to defend this. There seems to be this strange idea in a lot of people's minds these days, that on any topic, you're "either with us or against us", or,at the very least, "with us or with them". This is also why I get called both a nazi and a communist on Facebook, on various occasions.
It really is possible to view things on a case to case basis, and try to work out for yourself that sometimes, the citizens behave oddly, stupid, or downright dangerous, while in other cases, the cops don't follow procedures, act aggressively or even hostile, horribly overreact, and so on.
Which, of course, doesn't mean there won't be idiots defending any and all actions on one side, or the other, no matter the specific circumstances.