Pc Game Piracy - Opinions.

[Gill Kaiser]

That analogy doesn't really apply, since a meal is a physical object, and by eating it you will have deprived anybody else from the luxury of eating it. Refusing to pay for it would be theft.

 

[Dave]

That analogy doesn't really apply, since a meal is a physical object, and by eating it you will have deprived anybody else from the luxury of eating it. Refusing to pay for it would be theft.

Sorry about that. I hit "edit" instead of quote.

Here's MY post.

What do you think about someone writing a book? Should you be able to just take it and read it without paying? If someone scans it in and puts it on the web is that victimless? Dude, it's the same thing! Someone wrote this game and you are stealing it. You played it and didn't like it? Tough crap! You see a movie you don't like you're stuck unless you can get the manager to refund your money.

Just because you have the ability to get it digitally doesn't make it less theft.

 

[Gill Kaiser]

I may be completely self-deluded, and I know I'm reiterating somewhat, but to me it seems that if one knows one wouldn't have bought the product, but is able to acquire it digitally without depriving anybody else of said product, then it's a victimless crime. Nobody has lost anything, since the product was copied, not stolen. Nobody has lost revenue, since the purchase wouldn't have been made. The only difference is that the pirate gains a product of questionable value. Now, so long as the pirate proceeds to buy it if it turns out to be good enough that they realise that they would have bought it after all, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I'm always thinking 'what would have happened if...?'. That's how I justify it. Of course piracy will be frowned upon by the industry, but a pirated product definately does not always equate to lost revenue. I know there are pirates who simply never pay for games, no matter how good they are, but I suspect that they're not as common as many people think. I, at least, try to support the developers of quality products.

 

[Dave]

What do you do for a living, Gill?

 

[Gill Kaiser]

Up until a few months ago I was an impoverished student, but now I'm just impoverished, since they kicked me out of university once I graduated.

Maybe once I begin to forge a career for myself and learn the true value of hard work and how the real world operates, my bubble will be burst and I'll renounce my evil ways? The thought has occured to me, but nobody can know how experiences will affect them before they occur.

 

[Dave]

Up until a few months ago I was an impoverished student, but now I'm just impoverished, since they kicked me out of university once I graduated.

Maybe once I begin to forge a career for myself and learn the true value of hard work and how the real world operates, my bubble will be burst and I'll renounce my evil ways? The thought has occured to me, but nobody can know how experiences will affect them before they occur.

Hurm. Okay. Well, writing something for sale and having it ripped off sucks. Whatever form it's in doesn't matter and it's still a viable product, regardless of the medium.

And I contend that if someone went through the time & effort to create a product then playing the game without paying for it does hurt the sales of the author and thus can not possibly be a victimless crime.

 

[figmentPez]

I may be completely self-deluded, and I know I'm reiterating somewhat, but to me it seems that if one knows one wouldn't have bought the product, but is able to acquire it digitally without depriving anybody else of said product, then it's a victimless crime. Nobody has lost anything, since the product was copied, not stolen.

I disagree, something has been lost. The value of the product is degraded when people don't see fit to pay for it. Unless the pirate is completely anonymous to the point of not even notching up a counter on a website, then they've had an impact on public perception. People who see other people cheating are more likely to cheat themselves (unless they view the cheater as an enemy or undesirable, but that's a side issue). The more people who pirate, the more likely it is that others will pirate as well.

 

[SpecialKO]

Nobody has lost revenue, since the purchase wouldn't have been made.

This doesn't really work, though, because you clearly don't consider the game worthless. In the essence, you're denying the publisher the right to get that value back from you in the form of money.

If you were to buy a used game, on the other hand (which publishers also don't like since they don't make any money directly from that), not only has the publisher already made money off that copy of the game, but you've paid what you consider a fair value for the game to the previous owner, who will not possess the game anymore (in theory).

 

[AshburnerX]

What do you think about someone writing a book? Should you be able to just take it and read it without paying? If someone scans it in and puts it on the web is that victimless? Dude, it's the same thing! Someone wrote this game and you are stealing it. You played it and didn't like it? Tough crap! You see a movie you don't like you're stuck unless you can get the manager to refund your money.

Just because you have the ability to get it digitally doesn't make it less theft.

To which I counter: What about Libraries? They offer books to anyone who wants them for free. A few copies of a book are bought for the entire library system, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people are going to read it over it's lifetime. The people who wrote the book are only going to get paid for the initial purchase, not for each person who reads it. It's basically piracy, only there is a set limit of people who can read the book at an given time. Book Authors don't complain about people reading their books for free if it's from a Library, because they recognize that the public has a right to their material once they've published it, even if they themselves don't pay for it.

But then again, writing a book is a low-risk venture. If no one buys the authors book, he's out time, not money. Making a game costs cash and Developers need to recoup that cash or risk going under.

 

[Chazwozel]

What do you think about someone writing a book? Should you be able to just take it and read it without paying? If someone scans it in and puts it on the web is that victimless? Dude, it's the same thing! Someone wrote this game and you are stealing it. You played it and didn't like it? Tough crap! You see a movie you don't like you're stuck unless you can get the manager to refund your money.

Just because you have the ability to get it digitally doesn't make it less theft.

To which I counter: What about Libraries? They offer books to anyone who wants them for free. A few copies of a book are bought for the entire library system, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people are going to read it over it's lifetime. The people who wrote the book are only going to get paid for the initial purchase, not for each person who reads it. It's basically piracy, only there is a set limit of people who can read the book at an given time. Book Authors don't complain about people reading their books for free if it's from a Library, because they recognize that the public has a right to their material once they've published it, even if they themselves don't pay for it.

But then again, writing a book is a low-risk venture. If no one buys the authors book, he's out time, not money. Making a game costs cash and Developers need to recoup that cash or risk going under.[/QUOTE]


/facepalm That's all I have to say.

 

[SeraRelm]

Libraries obviously don't purchase books.

 

[tegid]

A few copies of a book are bought for the entire library system, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people are going to read it over it's lifetime.

.

 

[Chazwozel]

What do you think about someone writing a book? Should you be able to just take it and read it without paying? If someone scans it in and puts it on the web is that victimless? Dude, it's the same thing! Someone wrote this game and you are stealing it. You played it and didn't like it? Tough crap! You see a movie you don't like you're stuck unless you can get the manager to refund your money.

Just because you have the ability to get it digitally doesn't make it less theft.

To which I counter: What about Libraries? They offer books to anyone who wants them for free. A few copies of a book are bought for the entire library system, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people are going to read it over it's lifetime. The people who wrote the book are only going to get paid for the initial purchase, not for each person who reads it. It's basically piracy, only there is a set limit of people who can read the book at an given time. Book Authors don't complain about people reading their books for free if it's from a Library, because they recognize that the public has a right to their material once they've published it, even if they themselves don't pay for it.

But then again, writing a book is a low-risk venture. If no one buys the authors book, he's out time, not money. Making a game costs cash and Developers need to recoup that cash or risk going under.[/QUOTE]


/facepalm That's all I have to say.

And being a writer is usually a part-time/hobby profession because it is a such ahigh-risk venture. If you're a full time writer and you can't publish, you're fucked.

 

[Covar]

What do you think about someone writing a book? Should you be able to just take it and read it without paying? If someone scans it in and puts it on the web is that victimless? Dude, it's the same thing! Someone wrote this game and you are stealing it. You played it and didn't like it? Tough crap! You see a movie you don't like you're stuck unless you can get the manager to refund your money.

Just because you have the ability to get it digitally doesn't make it less theft.

To which I counter: What about Libraries? They offer books to anyone who wants them for free. A few copies of a book are bought for the entire library system, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people are going to read it over it's lifetime. The people who wrote the book are only going to get paid for the initial purchase, not for each person who reads it. It's basically piracy, only there is a set limit of people who can read the book at an given time. Book Authors don't complain about people reading their books for free if it's from a Library, because they recognize that the public has a right to their material once they've published it, even if they themselves don't pay for it.

But then again, writing a book is a low-risk venture. If no one buys the authors book, he's out time, not money. Making a game costs cash and Developers need to recoup that cash or risk going under.[/QUOTE]

I'm trying real hard not to just quote Chaz here.

Time working = money. Every hour an author spends writing their novel is an hour they could have spent at another job. On the same subject why do you think Games cost so much money to make? I'll give you a hint, you know those long lists of credits you see now at the end of games? Those people need to get paid for their work.

Every game pirated is a potential sale that is lost. Believe it or not a potential sale has a value to it.

 

[JONJONAUG]

I don't own a single game that I don't love. Why? I did research before buying them. I looked up reviews and asked friends who played them. In some cases, I demoed them through the PSN or developer demos on the PC, but either way, I didn't just run up to the store and buy a game because it was shiney and new. You don't need to turn to piracy to find out if something is terrible before purchasing it.

Buying something without researching it is just plain stupid to begin with.

This, so very much.

 

[elph]

I don't own a single game that I don't love. Why? I did research before buying them. I looked up reviews and asked friends who played them. In some cases, I demoed them through the PSN or developer demos on the PC, but either way, I didn't just run up to the store and buy a game because it was shiney and new. You don't need to turn to piracy to find out if something is terrible before purchasing it.

Buying something without researching it is just plain stupid to begin with.

This, so very much.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you banned from either the Image forums or Halfpixel for linking directly to a pirated movie?

 

[Chazwozel]

I don't own a single game that I don't love. Why? I did research before buying them. I looked up reviews and asked friends who played them. In some cases, I demoed them through the PSN or developer demos on the PC, but either way, I didn't just run up to the store and buy a game because it was shiney and new. You don't need to turn to piracy to find out if something is terrible before purchasing it.

Buying something without researching it is just plain stupid to begin with.

This, so very much.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you banned from either the Image forums or Halfpixel for linking directly to a pirated movie?[/QUOTE]

I don't know if it was him, but it was for linking to a torrent on Halfpixel.

 

[Gusto]

I remember that!

 

[JONJONAUG]

I don't own a single game that I don't love. Why? I did research before buying them. I looked up reviews and asked friends who played them. In some cases, I demoed them through the PSN or developer demos on the PC, but either way, I didn't just run up to the store and buy a game because it was shiney and new. You don't need to turn to piracy to find out if something is terrible before purchasing it.

Buying something without researching it is just plain stupid to begin with.

This, so very much.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you banned from either the Image forums or Halfpixel for linking directly to a pirated movie?[/QUOTE]

I don't know if it was him, but it was for linking to a torrent on Halfpixel.[/QUOTE]

Was I?

...I don't know, maybe. I know I was banned once for something, but that it lasted for all of like four hours.

It feels more likely that I would've been banned for linking a torrent of a non-licensed anime or something of that nature though.

I remember that!

I don't, could you refresh my memory?

 

[Espy]

If one actually believes no harm is done financially for pirating software then I don't really think that there is a discussion to be had. You are honestly living in a reality so foreign to me I can't understand it.

 

[SpecialKO]

Libraries buy in bulk, dude. They don't approach a publisher for 5 copies of Twilight or some shit, they approach a publisher for hundreds, sometimes thousands of books at a time.

The publisher figures out how much money they *might* lose, based on the library involved and their own sales patterns.

Then they quote the libraries a sales figure that will make up for lost potential. Since the overhead for publishers on books is pretty low, they make a ton in guaranteed sales, the library pays less per book, and the publisher still has every chance in the world to sell to those individuals anyway.

Same principle behind movie and game rentals.

 

[Gusto]

If I recall, JONJON linked to a torrent of one of the Season 3 episodes of Venture Brothers in a discussion thread, and Kris banned him. After a thread discussing the banishment, e was quickly reinstated because I THINK the rules at the time as written did not expressly forbid that kinda stuff.

JONNY was brought back and the rules were amended.

 

[AshburnerX]

Libraries buy in bulk, dude. They don't approach a publisher for 5 copies of Twilight or some shit, they approach a publisher for hundreds, sometimes thousands of books at a time.

The publisher figures out how much money they *might* lose, based on the library involved and their own sales patterns.

Then they quote the libraries a sales figure that will make up for lost potential. Since the overhead for publishers on books is pretty low, they make a ton in guaranteed sales, the library pays less per book, and the publisher still has every chance in the world to sell to those individuals anyway.

Same principle behind movie and game rentals.

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

 

[Covar]

I no longer pirate software.

a) I'm not 15 anymore, I can afford to pay or have the maturity to wait until I can afford to pay.
b) Piracy can affect me personally. Gives a real perspective shift, when you realize it can be your work.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

If one actually believes no harm is done financially for pirating software then I don't really think that there is a discussion to be had. You are honestly living in a reality so foreign to me I can't understand it.

They're just trying to rationalize their actions, So they don't have to admit that what they're doing is wrong.

 

[SpecialKO]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[elph]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.

 

[AshburnerX]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't account for privately donated books, but that's a very small percentage of books in library systems. But your account does sound entirely feasible... it does explain how libraries are able to acquire material while still being able to afford operational costs.

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.

It could be a deal with publishers for a set number of books, and then they just pick which books they want up to a limit. That would explain why I've never seen more than 10 copies of a new release in my multi-county library system.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Man, I don't rationalize shit. I pirate stuff, and it's wrong for me to do it. But I do it anyways.

 

[elph]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't account for privately donated books, but that's a very small percentage of books in library systems. But your account does sound entirely feasible... it does explain how libraries are able to acquire material while still being able to afford operational costs.

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.

It could be a deal with publishers for a set number of books, and then they just pick which books they want up to a limit. That would explain why I've never seen more than 10 copies of a new release in my multi-county library system.[/QUOTE]

I could be off. I'm reading a couple articles that are fairly conflicting on the surface.

They mainly say 'local government' which would seem more City then County, but it makes sense it would be county level as well. Like you said, you typically don't see more then X number of books in a single county system, and most systems do not cross county lines. Either way, 10 (or even 20 copies) of a book, isn't a lot in terms of a bulk sale.

 

[Espy]

Man, I don't rationalize shit. I pirate stuff, and it's wrong for me to do it. But I do it anyways.

Sure, everyone does that as well in one way or the other. How many of us speed, etc?
The difference is some cannot, for one reason or the other, see that it is harmful. You can. That does count for something. It doesn't make it right, but it lets me know you aren't insane.

 

[Covar]

Man, I don't rationalize shit. I pirate stuff, and it's wrong for me to do it. But I do it anyways.

A much more respectable position than "It's a victimless crime"

 

[SpecialKO]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.[/QUOTE]

Even a small library will buy a few hundred books at a time. Or they may work in an association of small libraries to share a larger collection.

A big library spends a huge amount of money on new materials. In 2008, NYPL spent $14.5 million on new materials.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

Either way, 10 (or even 20 copies) of a book, isn't a lot in terms of a bulk sale.

But they're not buying 10 copies of a book, they're buying 5 copies each of 60 books.

 

[elph]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.[/QUOTE]

Even a small library will buy a few hundred books at a time. Or they may work in an association of small libraries to share a larger collection.

A big library spends a huge amount of money on new materials. In 2008, NYPL spent $14.5 million on new materials.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

Either way, 10 (or even 20 copies) of a book, isn't a lot in terms of a bulk sale.

But they're not buying 10 copies of a book, they're buying 5 copies each of 60 books.[/QUOTE]

True, bulk is bulk from a publisher. A publisher doesn't really differentiate so much between JK Rowling or any of it's other authors when selling in bulk. It's still '300' units under X price tag.

 

[SpecialKO]

See, THIS is interesting information. I was not aware of intricacies of the process of ordering books for a library system, which does explain why libraries are allowed to operate in our sue happy society.

To be 100% fair, I am guessing based on what I know about bulk purchasing for resellers.

It's perfectly possible that there are different rules in play, but I kind of doubt it.[/QUOTE]

I think it's different for each library because each library is funded by the city they're in. Which doesn't lead to a lot in terms of bulk purchasing.[/QUOTE]

Even a small library will buy a few hundred books at a time. Or they may work in an association of small libraries to share a larger collection.

A big library spends a huge amount of money on new materials. In 2008, NYPL spent $14.5 million on new materials.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

Either way, 10 (or even 20 copies) of a book, isn't a lot in terms of a bulk sale.

But they're not buying 10 copies of a book, they're buying 5 copies each of 60 books.[/QUOTE]

True, bulk is bulk from a publisher. A publisher doesn't really differentiate so much between JK Rowling or any of it's other authors when selling in bulk. It's still '300' units under X price tag.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's my point.

 

[Piotyr]

Man, I don't rationalize shit. I pirate stuff, and it's wrong for me to do it. But I do it anyways.

If I might ask, then, why do you do it anyways? Convenience?