Can company really "lose" money to pirates?

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C

Chibibar

They still lost the difference of the value of the game when the pirate copies the game till the time he "gets around to paying for it."
Ok. But there is no way to truly measure that until every piece of software "phone home" before you can play, but if they are "phone home" then might as well do a validity check of the software, but pirates are very good at cracking many DRM.
 
No, they only lose it if the pirate would have bought it otherwise. Indirect financial harm I can accept, but they don't lose the actual 30$ of price difference.
You have a pirate playing a game you make that is worth $50. They lost $50 until the pirate pays $50.
Added at: 18:42
Ok. But there is no way to truly measure that until every piece of software "phone home" before you can play, but if they are "phone home" then might as well do a validity check of the software, but pirates are very good at cracking many DRM.
The company won't know exactly their monetary losses, but they are huge.
 
Speaking as someone that HAS pirated (movies and TV shows), I think the idea of pirating and buying it much later may not be considered full-on theft, but it's certainly screwing the company out of potential money. As I said before, when it comes to games, I don't tend to buy them new. But I also don't pirate and play them until I do buy them. The only pirated games I've played have been abandonware and even then, if they show up on Steam, I buy 'em. Even then, I likely haven't played them in a very long time.

Straight on pirating and playing? Not cool. Playing it for free until it goes down in price? Also not cool. The game is clearly good enough for you to play now, so your empty wallet overcomes your patience? Bullshit. Now, I pirating a game to demo it (if no such demo exists) and then almost immediately buying it if you like it? That's fine. But you can't "demo" something for six months to a year. Speaking for myself, I wait for the price on a game to go down most times before I buy it. But I don't bloody well pirate and play it before then.

Of course, given that I pirate movies and TV shows makes me a bit of a hypocrite. Pirating TV shows to me is no different than getting a buddy to tape it for you back in the day. If companies didn't charge the same price to buy it new as online, I'd likely buy it online more. I don't need a physical copy of a movie or TV show, anymore, since 99% of the time, I don't care about special features. A good quality .avi file from a UBS stick looks just as good on my PS3. Ditto for movies. The majority of the movies that I have on my drive are ones that I've bought several times, either in theatre, bought or rented on VHS and then again on DVD and sometimes Blu-Ray. The studios have gotten my money more than enough. Star Wars, for example, I won't be buying on BluRay. I saw them in theatres twice (the re-release and the special edition release), bought them on VHS and bought them on DVD. To hell with it and George Lucas.

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2653-Piracy
 
You have a pirate playing a game you make that is worth $50. They lost $50 until the pirate pays $50.
Exactly. To think otherwise is to assume that the game has no value until someone pays for it. It may be a variable value dependent on market factors and personal preference, but it still has value. Otherwise, the pirates wouldn't be bothering to pirate it.

Whether its a strict definition of a "lost sale" is a slightly different question that I think some people are misunderstanding. "Lost sale" as a term refers to the opportunity lost to make money, while "lost revenue" is a much straighter measure of whether an item of inventory has been paid for or not. They're not the same thing.
 
J

JCM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/12248010

Well.... let me try to be more clear on that.

Can a company lose money to pirates who never intend to buy game in the first place? I would assume that if a person is a potential customer and face with an option to pirate vs buying, then the company DOES lose money since that is one less potential customer.

How does these company figure the number that they lose billions? Do they go by how many times it was downloaded? does it have a secret software that report to the "home" that these games are hacked?

Can you really claim you lose money if the person never intend to buy? I know that if a person can "steal" X dollars by NOT buying the game and play, but if pirating wasn't available (in a perfect world) then that person may not buy in the first place (supposely)

Now how can a company fight against people who are never willing to pay for a game in the first place? I think making a game affordable may curb some pirates (the people who willing to pay but can't afford the high price tag)

Last but not lease. What kind of customers are there?


People willing to buy collector's edition
People willing to buy regular edition
People who pre-order (either above)
People who can afford games that are less than X dollars
People who are willing to buy games as long doesn't have restrictive DRM
people who are going to play the game and pass time and not willing to pay
It depends.

For example, lets take me and my cousin in law.

I have a Brazilian iTunes account, which due to mobile games needing a ratings code (unlike in the USA) it doesn't have a Games section. The options for me are either-
a) Try and make an account putting a fake address in the USA and get an american account, which could result in me losing my account
or
b) Jailbreak my idevices and download illegally
or
c) Have a gimped device with no games.
So I chose b). Apple didnt lose anything, because what I intended to buy (Pages and Keynotes) were bought legally in the brazilian store, and I downloaded what I cant get here.

I also dont intend to buy overpriced DS and PSP games (taxes + Nintendo Brazil and Sony being arseholes), nor ever did, and have downloaded every game Ive played on them (but for a few I received as a gift), and if it were impossible to hack them, I would just have bought a GP32X or something. Again, no money lost. But then I do buy PS3 games (sadly, at the brasilian real equivalent of $110) because I'd rather not risk breaking that damn expensive thing.

Now my cousin-in-law? Has an american iTunes account, has an address in the States and gets iTunes gift cards from his family in the US along every other month. He sells them here, and downloads games over the net to his jailbroken iPhone. Could he buy those games? Yep. Does Apple lose money over a potential customer? Maybe.


Im not justifying downloading, mind you (even though here its legally a gray area), but its rather foolish to say that every downloaded copy is lost money, because not everyone who downloads something would buy it.
 
J

JCM

At least no one's made a 10-paragraph rant on how downloading pirate stuff was a form of "sticking it to the man/big government/big companies".

Sometimes I miss the old image forums :-P
I know you guys say that, but it is still theft. You play a $50 dollar game for two years then wait for the price to drop to $20, still means you stole $30 from the company.
Stealing is an incorrect term used by companies to make it look worse than it already is It its piracy, and should you attempt to make money off the illegal copy or pass it off as your own, its IP Theft.

Here's a handy chart.



As for the lawfulness of it? In the U.S. its a crime to download a copy of something you havent paid for, copy something you've paid for or make a copy of it for someone else.So dont rip a dvd that you own, otherwise you are a pirate [;)]

Now some of the users here arent americans, for example, here you can copy, distribute or download. But its illegal to sell a copy you've made, unless you pay taxes, then it is alright. I dont know the legality of it where Chibibar is.

And on the subject of law, and Dave's BBC dvd region problems, DVD region coding actually violates several Trade agreements of several countries (with New Zealand actually managing to pass a law outlawing region coding there) and international trade laws, so get yourself a region-free dvd player. :-P
 
Oh I'm not judging anyone. I don't make excuses for why I do things though. I do it because it's free and quick. Period. I'd rather download a movie quick, watch it, and delete it over waiting for Netflix or going to Blockbuster. I'm a lazy, lazy man.
 
J

JCM

So when a Somali Pirate pulls up along side a ship, they rip it onto a CD?
And when a baseball player steals he actually takes you money, :-P

http://www.thefreedictionary.com
pi·rate (p
r
t)
n.
1.
a. One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation.
b. A ship used for this purpose.
2. One who preys on others; a plunderer.
3. One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization.
4. One that operates an unlicensed, illegal television or radio station.

steal (st
l)
v. stole (st
l), sto·len (st
l
n), steal·ing, steals
v.tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
2. To present or use (someone else's words or ideas) as one's own.
3. To get or take secretly or artfully: steal a look at a diary; steal the puck from an opponent.
4. To give or enjoy (a kiss) that is unexpected or unnoticed.
5. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
6. Baseball To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
v.intr.
1. To commit theft.
2. To move, happen, or elapse stealthily or unobtrusively.
3. Baseball To steal a base.
m "stealing" for "copying"

Not that piracy isnt illegal there in the USA, which it is. :_P
 
Stealing is an incorrect term used by companies to make it look worse than it already is It its piracy, and should you attempt to make money off the illegal copy or pass it off as your own, its IP Theft.
Actually JCM you're wrong... only trying it to pass it off as your own is IP theft... trying to make money off it by selling copies or using the characters/stuff in your own work is still copy right infringement...they'd just get more damages awarded probably.


And stuff like fan fics and fan art are also copy right infringement, and yet for some reason no one here seems to cry about how those are taking money away from artists and writers.


Try going back several hundred years and wearing a Scottish tartan of another clan
Fun fact about that, the whole clan heraldry tartan thing is not as ancient as you think... it's even sourced: Tartan, as we know it today, is not thought to have existed in Scotland before the 16th century. By the late 16th century there are numerous references to striped or checkered plaids. It is not until the late 17th or early 18th century that any kind uniformity in tartan is thought to have occurred.[20]



(EDIT: or go back to Roman times and try to convince the stone mason's guild that making concrete doesn't violate their control of the industry because the real value is in the limited supply of limestone. The only physical scarcity they'll care about is making the flesh scarce on your back.)
Yeah, and i'm sure any other product that threatened their monopoly over and industry was treated in the same way, and yet you wouldn't say that Pepsi was stealing Coca-Cola's money, would you?!

Plus, those guilds where based on keeping the methods secret so only they could benefit from it, not around the idea that whoever invented cement had any moral right to its use (very likely whoever did wasn't even a roman)...

Heraldry and other forms of identification has been around for at least that long.
I'm pretty sure the Picts wouldn't have minded much if someone else used warpaint... but sure, 500 years might not be 100% correct...

Also, the 1st guy that came up with heraldry got his idea stolen by everyone else...

For as long as people have protected their ideals, there has been IP. It may not have been called intellectual property, and it may not have had codified laws, but it existed.
And as long as people had money they also had capitalism?! You're looking at it in too broad a sense. Their ideas about it where very different from ours.




Anyhow, you kinda missed the point about the scarce resources... and that is that our economic system is based on them... at what point someone decided to use an unlimited resource to convince others to give him/her the limited ones doesn't really matter (i'd say whenever religion first showed up myself.), just the fact that there is a difference between the two types.
 
J

JCM

Actually JCM you're wrong... only trying it to pass it off as your own is IP theft... trying to make money off it by selling copies or using the characters/stuff in your own work is still copy right infringement...they'd just get more damages awarded probably.
Forgot about that.

So its;
stealing someone's idea = IP Theft
selling copies of someone's stuff = copyright
Copying stuff/distributing/downloading = piracy
Physically taking something that belongs to someone else = stealing

And stuff like fan fics and fan art are also copy right infringement, and yet for some reason no one here seems to cry about how those are taking money away from artists and writers
Since companies are calling copying/piracy = stealing, can I call fanfiction of copyrighted works raping (in the case of het/slash fanfiction, raping my childhood literally)?
 
And stuff like fan fics and fan art are also copy right infringement, and yet for some reason no one here seems to cry about how those are taking money away from artists and writers.
I'm pretty sure things like Fan Fiction are covered under Fair Use or Parody.
 
J

JCM

Have you seen the stuff they write? Topless Robot's blog has a Fanfiction Friday with some damn freaky finds that have forever made me shiver when I hear the words "fan fiction", and "Fair use" and "Parody" is pretty much "up to the court to decide" terms.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation."
False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's main difference under the law. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be serious damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property. There is a USA exception for personal copying of music, which is not a violation, though courts seem to have said that doesn't include widescale anonymous personal copying as Napster. If the work has no commercial value, the violation is mostly technical and is unlikely to result in legal action. Fair use determinations (see below) do sometimes depend on the involvement of money.
Read also the bit on "Fair Use"
Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to publish a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that.
 
I'm pretty sure things like Fan Fiction are covered under Fair Use or Parody.
Parodies are protected, but actually using characters and other stuff isn't... companies just tend to allow it by not suing...

Remember when Games Workshop stopped (with court papers too i believe) that german fan film because they where afraid that under german law they'd lose copyright?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatus


Of course i for one don't really understand Fair Use beyond it being about using stuff for educational purposes or simple shout outs...

EDIT: Oh, parodies are Fair Use too it seems... so i'm guessing using parts for criticism and in news papers is too...

So its;
stealing someone's idea = IP Theft
selling copies of someone's stuff = copyright
Copying stuff/distributing/downloading = piracy
Physically taking something that belongs to someone else = stealing
Actually piracy is more like a slang term... both those things in the middle are copyright infringement... it's more like assault and aggravated assault...
 
A clip of an old interview with Neil Gaiman (Best selling author, poet, and comic book writer) on his feelings about piracy. He's surprisingly OK with it and has actually encouraged it.

 
I love Neil Gaiman and he raises a great point about books. There are a number of comics that I've lent to friends who wouldn't have read it unless they borrowed it from me. Same with myself, come to think of it. I didn't get into books like Starman and Hellboy until a friend lent them to me. I love his comparison of borrowing a book or advertising it. In the book market, it makes sense.

I don't, however, believe that same idea works for TV and movies. People watch TV shows and movies all the time without hearing of it before. I've had customers in Blockbuster rent something they've only seen on the shelf. Or try a new TV show. Then again, there's less time put into a movie or a show. It takes much longer to read a book, so it's a matter of investment in time.
 
Dude, go work in a bookstore, i'm sure you'll run into some people that will pick up a book after just seeing it on the shelf...
 
Oh, I'm sure there are. My point is that there are more people willing to try a TV show or a movie than a book.

Then again, people don't read books as much as they used to.
 
As JCM mentioned, sometimes you can't go the legit way.

I have 0 options for legit Wii/Xbox games in China. If I COULD get the legit copy I would. I'd LIKE to play on Xbox live with everyone else.

But I can't.

I had my bro bring up a legit copy of FFXII last summer when he came to visit me in China.

REGION ERROR

So I tried.

With PC games however, I buy legitimately, because I can. I can use steam, and that's exactly what I do. I like playing online, I like (some) DLC content that I wouldn't get otherwise without a legit copy.
 
J

JCM

True.

And not to mention that region encoding is in fact illegal and breaks several trade treaties (and some countries like New Zealand, actually managed to get dvd companies to make region-free dvds for sale there).

Funnily, the same companies that do that are the ones that then say its illegal for you to even make a copy of stuff you already own.
Added at: 15:10


Basically, whoever thinks that they are better than pirates because they buy their stuff, beware, if you rip the cd or dvd you won, you are a pirate too
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,319276,00.html
 
I've always liked this better: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=787244

And this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...rs-Sue-Lawyer-Who-Helped-Copyright-Defendants

Or how many times do artists do this and never get called on it: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/35227069 (if you look it up there are countless examples, not to mention how many games where inspired by what came before etc.)

A clip of an old interview with Neil Gaiman (Best selling author, poet, and comic book writer) on his feelings about piracy. He's surprisingly OK with it and has actually encouraged it.
And that's why the best strategy against piracy is to make people understand that buying stuff helps make new stuff, rewards the devs etc., even if they buy it later when the prices are down etc.

Or a library.
Over here they're both called libraries...
 

figmentPez

Staff member
And that's why the best strategy against piracy is to make people understand that buying stuff helps make new stuff, rewards the devs etc., even if they buy it later when the prices are down etc.
That's similar to my thoughts when I was watching the video. It's important to not let "There's no harm in copying this" turn into "There's no benefit in paying for this." Not that I think the former will inevitably turn into the latter, but I have the sentiment of, paraphrased "I won't pay for media, and that it's up to creators to figure out how to monetize without ever charging the customer".
 
T

themike

The only thing I don't pay for is Tv, I watch from the Internet but every time I can I use hulu
 
you want a really vocal crowd, go tell the anime fansubbers they are pirates and watch them freak the hell out and get all high and mighty.
 
T

themike

As I understand amine has no copyrights in my country. I don't really know why
 
you want a really vocal crowd, go tell the anime fansubbers they are pirates and watch them freak the hell out and get all high and mighty.
Personally, I can't really blame them. They're consumers that the market hasn't caught up with yet (They have the technology, but they haven't priced the market yet). Kind of like the pre-iTunes folks who just REALLY wanted cheap, song-by-song pricing.
 
You know, I go back and forth on this argument personally all the time. On the one hand I know that piracy effects companies and industries I enjoy and want to flourish, on the other hand when I see those industries refuse to move past outdated models, treat their artists and the end consumer like crap it makes me think maybe they have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new world even if it is by piracy. I'm not justifying piracy and I tend to think it is morally and legally wrong in most instances but the reality is the world has changed, and companies who don't keep up are going to end up dying.
Of course I'm not sure thats a bad thing either.
 
Personally, I can't really blame them. They're consumers that the market hasn't caught up with yet (They have the technology, but they haven't priced the market yet). Kind of like the pre-iTunes folks who just REALLY wanted cheap, song-by-song pricing.
I am not calling you out man, but I would love to hear this point explained in greater detail, I am not seeing how the two compare?
 
T

themike

I think AshburnerX is saying that just as music song by song wasn't available at a fair prize the anime people can't get a product they want because it's not on the market yet
 
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