I would venture to say that everyone who thinks contributions towards maintaining the society they inhabit is "theft" is a special kind of dumb. The kind that would quickly turn into a donkey if left at a certain amusement park.
--Patrick
--Patrick
My dad is a huge Trump supporter, and very against m4a, for getting rid of payroll taxes, deregulate everything, etc etc
He's also a disabled vet that relies on the VA and disability/social security payments
I am
Because it's not a handout!!!! They earned that!!!!
The big issue is our giant manufactured disconnect between taxes and services. No one seems to understand that taxes are what pay for services. They think all the money goes towards either paying government salaries or for hot button services like welfare, which they see as giving money to "the lazy".
If we abolished taxes tomorrow, they would be the first to bitch when they realize the pothole in front of their house will never be fixed, that their SS / Unemployment checks would cease to appear, etc. They are used to many of these things just "happening" and don't connect how the government is actually paying for it. What's stupider is they would bitch for it to be handled WITHOUT raising taxes, because to these people, it's always someone else problem.
If we abolished taxes tomorrow, they would be the first to bitch when they realize the pothole in front of their house will never be fixed, that their SS / Unemployment checks would cease to appear, etc. They are used to many of these things just "happening" and don't connect how the government is actually paying for it. What's stupider is they would bitch for it to be handled WITHOUT raising taxes, because to these people, it's always someone else problem.
It doesn't help that we have an aging population--though that may change sooner rather than later because of covid19.
The big 3 entitlement programs (social security, medicare, medicaid) eat up 48% of our tax revenue. When the boomers were young and outnumbered their elder generations, funding programs like this was much easier. Now that the boomers want their cut, it's a lot more difficult to deal with.
Of course, reducing taxes on businesses and the rich and the like doesn't make dealing with it any easier, that's for sure.
The big 3 entitlement programs (social security, medicare, medicaid) eat up 48% of our tax revenue. When the boomers were young and outnumbered their elder generations, funding programs like this was much easier. Now that the boomers want their cut, it's a lot more difficult to deal with.
Of course, reducing taxes on businesses and the rich and the like doesn't make dealing with it any easier, that's for sure.
Don't forget that any government program that helps anyone is just a form of big government control wanting to make you a puppet from cradle to grave, because social wellbeing is somehow slavery and that's why we need to stockpile guns.
Dave
Staff member
When they pay any taxes at all.
The system actually was set up with this aging population boom in mind and trillions of dollars were taken from the boomers to shore up the system for their social security.
GasBandit
Staff member
No it wasn't. It's a pyramid scheme where those currently paying are supporting those receiving benefits, there is no separate "account" for the money collected, it all goes into the general fund and any positive balance has long since been spent.
I really hate this common and dumb sound bite. In a world where idiots are parroting "it's covid-19 not covid-1" I would hope that the people we hope are smarter than that would be able to avoid the same damn thing, and yet I still find people like gas parroting stuff like this, which is designed to sound right without any needed thought or introspection.
A pyramid or Ponzi scheme is a type of fraud that fakes payouts of high reward by using the money of initial investors, usually as a way to defraud said investors and run away with the money. Social security is not that, it's a fund where current workers invest in the wellbeing of the elderly that can no longer work. Interest generated by the fund is used to purchase government bonds, and is not placed into any sort of speculative venture.
GasBandit
Staff member
That's a very sanitized way of saying "the government takes that money and spends it on other things with nothing but a promise to pay it back later with interest."
Like I said.. it's not "in an account" anywhere. Any extra money is taken, spent on other things, and an IOU left in its place.
That's literally the definition of a bond. I don't know if you're aware of this, but money itself is nothing more than a promise.
Social security/pensions can be designed in several ways. America, and Belgium, for example, have chosen a system where the current workers pay for the current retired, and the future workers will pay for the future retired. This works great as long as you assume an ever-growing labor pool. In the current boomers-retiring along with higher life expectancy climate, such a system is a travesty, with ever-less working people supporting ever-more retirees.
Obviously, this was known well back into the '90s. And just as obviously, measures taken to alleviate this - setting money aside for future retirement payments and all that - has been turning out to be completely empty boxes, or IOUs with nothing supporting them, or has straight-up been gutted or stopped for short-term savings.
Some countries have opted for a system where each worker pays for their own pension - just like in private pension systems. Of course, this means those who work will have a decent pension...But house mothers, disabled people, and what-have-you who haven't worked a full career for whatever reason, are left in squalor.
Some countries, like the Netherlands or Norway, have built a system where every generation is building towards their own retirement as a whole - a bit of a mix of the above. Technically superior, but such a system requires a LOT of upfront money and investment, which not every country could do - both of the countries named used billions of oil money to set their systems up after WWII.
When the Belgian SS was designed after WWII, one retiree was supported by 16 workers. Now, one retiree is supported by 4 or 5 workers, and it's expected to drop down to about 2.5-3 before the boomers start dying off. And despite what some people have already been claiming, Corona won't really make a dent.
Obviously, this was known well back into the '90s. And just as obviously, measures taken to alleviate this - setting money aside for future retirement payments and all that - has been turning out to be completely empty boxes, or IOUs with nothing supporting them, or has straight-up been gutted or stopped for short-term savings.
Some countries have opted for a system where each worker pays for their own pension - just like in private pension systems. Of course, this means those who work will have a decent pension...But house mothers, disabled people, and what-have-you who haven't worked a full career for whatever reason, are left in squalor.
Some countries, like the Netherlands or Norway, have built a system where every generation is building towards their own retirement as a whole - a bit of a mix of the above. Technically superior, but such a system requires a LOT of upfront money and investment, which not every country could do - both of the countries named used billions of oil money to set their systems up after WWII.
When the Belgian SS was designed after WWII, one retiree was supported by 16 workers. Now, one retiree is supported by 4 or 5 workers, and it's expected to drop down to about 2.5-3 before the boomers start dying off. And despite what some people have already been claiming, Corona won't really make a dent.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying SS can't be reformed or improved, it absolutely can. I'm saying that calling it a pyramid scheme, or that government bonds are some sort of larceny conspiracy, is intellectually deceitful and designed to convince people, possibly even yourself, that you're right without needing any thought.
GasBandit
Staff member
But it takes several forms of promises. If you keep it in an account, it becomes more, well, accountable.
Let me rephrase.
Basically,
Doesn't feel so financially sound anymore, does it? All he has to do is go on Fox News and say that those bonds were a democrat plot and fake and bad and he's not paying them back, and it's accomplished no matter how illogical any of it is.
Heh... isn't that cute... BUT IT'S WRONG!!!
Seriously, tough, if that was true there would be no such thing as a run on the bank, because there would be enough cash assets in each account etc.
He could do that with any physical assets too, and the Senate would just acquit him again... what's your point?
Obviously Gas supports the barter system.
GasBandit
Staff member
That it was more likely to happen even pre-Trump.
So they absolutely saw the aging population boom coming and took extra money to shore up the system. This really isn't up for debate.
Now of course they did raid the social security trust fund which makes that planning worth shit. But the SSA did prepare for the rising aging population.
GasBandit
Staff member
Pouring more water into a bucket with no bottom is not preparation.
Still waiting.
Or are you just going to continue to?
Understanding the Social Security Trust Funds | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
How Do the Trust Funds Work? Social Security’s financial operations are handled through two federal trust funds — the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI) trust fund and the Disability Insurance (DI) trust fund. Although legally distinct, they are often referred to collectively as “the Social...
www.cbpp.org
Why you're in the politics tab with no idea what the Social security trust fund I'll never understand.
So no debate from you about the facts but you still need the last word. Good to know.
If I was gas, I'd respond to this with "yep" and lock the thread.
Dave
Staff member
So....tempting...
No, he would respond that he felt like he was being singled out/attacked, and then refuse to engage further on the topic (at least for a while).
—Patrick
Too busy just keeping my own paltry existence going to keep track of everything.
GasBandit
Staff member
I have never once locked a political thread.
Even my parents knew (and have been warning me) since I was 6 years old that I had little to no chance to actually collect social security when I retire.
But hey, maybe COVID-19 will fix social security.
Even your own left-leaning source (CBPP is famously pro-redistribution) acknowledges that Social Security IS pay-as-you-go, just like a ponzi scheme. Even if the historical surplus HAS been put into treasury bonds, that is literally just the mechanism to move the money out of SS and into the general coffers where it has been spent. Historically, the government has made good on its bonds... going forward? I'm not so sure I'm as confident on that as I once was, and even if they do, your source once again points out that that "surplus" is 15 years from being completely depleted.
Even my parents knew (and have been warning me) since I was 6 years old that I had little to no chance to actually collect social security when I retire.
But hey, maybe COVID-19 will fix social security.