Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

The one that talks about how only one kid went on puberty blockers and then went onto identify as cisgendered when they were 11?

That was the starting point for you comparing transitioning to euthanasia? One kid on puberty blockers for a short time?
I did not compare transitioning to euthanasia, I compared the ethical and moral areas around allowing choice and freedom while protecting the voiceless or powerless in regards to both of these matters, and a few others, to one another. Sorry for trying to explain how my mental structure works in trying to be consistent in my reasoning across topics. I try my best to be consistent, coherent, and capable of accepting consequences of moral principles. Sometimes I arrive at things where I may rather not be. Like I said - I used to be of the "just don't allow any guns in the hands of regular people" persuasion, and have found that to be simply not fitting in to my moral compass upon further reflection.
Also, your turn of phrase "comparing transitioning to euthanasia" is either deliberately inflammatory, or just a bad failure of interpretation on your part.

Also also, apparently by now you've read more on it than I have; good to see my assumptions about the numbers were correct. From what I read, there was no way to clearly see that none of them had any lasting consequences. Stopping at 11 is probably early enough to have very minimal, if any, physical after effects.
 
I did not compare transitioning to euthanasia, I compared the ethical and moral areas around allowing choice and freedom while protecting the voiceless or powerless in regards to both of these matters, and a few others, to one another. Sorry for trying to explain how my mental structure works in trying to be consistent in my reasoning across topics. I try my best to be consistent, coherent, and capable of accepting consequences of moral principles. Sometimes I arrive at things where I may rather not be. Like I said - I used to be of the "just don't allow any guns in the hands of regular people" persuasion, and have found that to be simply not fitting in to my moral compass upon further reflection.
Also, your turn of phrase "comparing transitioning to euthanasia" is either deliberately inflammatory, or just a bad failure of interpretation on your part.
You’re the one who brought euthanasia into the discussion and then compared it to transitioning. Getting pissy at me isn’t going to change that nonsense.
Also also, apparently by now you've read more on it than I have; good to see my assumptions about the numbers were correct. From what I read, there was no way to clearly see that none of them had any lasting consequences. Stopping at 11 is probably early enough to have very minimal, if any, physical after effects.
Well you went on a long thing over a tumbler post so that you didn’t even bother to read the article isn’t exactly a great defense cause that article did infact state that of the 8 that retransitioned only one had gone on puberty blockers.
And what are the long term consequences of going on puberty blockers? Or physical after effects as you put it?
 
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely DO believe trans/enby/whatever people should all have all the rights they want and such. I'm all in favor of everyone being who they are.
I do think some prepuberty transition cases can be "iffy", but I accept that that's in large part simply because of my upbringing and because, well, it's not always being handled as well as it should which leads straight back to it being better if it was more normalized and accepted.

Having said that, looking at those numbers, that's 8 kids who transitioned back, and 11 who moved on to other gender identities (NB or whatever), out of 317. And I do have to say: those are higher numbers than I expected, honestly. 8 out of 300 is far from "one in a million".

Now, obviously, I agree that as far as some of these right wing nuts are concerned, a million trans kids could go hang themselves and as long as their little Bobby didn't have to face those filthy degenerates they couldn't care less., and that that's horrible.
However, these numbers do, up to a point, reinforce my hesitance towards (early) prepubescent medical transitioning. Teen years and puberty are a period in life where it's normal and important to experiment (with sexuality and plenty of other stuff). The amount of people who have kissed at least one person of the sex they don't end up preferring as a partner is pretty high. *
Now, I very emphatically don't believe in indoctrination/brainwashing/grooming by trans people forcing kids to transition. I don't. It's BS. In fact, I believe closed-minded people are a much more likely factor in pushing people - boys wearing make-up or liking fashion, girls liking baggy pants and climbing trees (and all kinds of variations on "not exactly fitting into the gender-assigned box" in some people's minds) have been told they "should behave like a real lady"/"aren't a real man"/"should dress more appropriately"/are gay/etc a million times. I think practically everyone here has heard at least something in that area at least once from some aunt or grandfather. THAT is actually more likely to push people to wondering if there is "something wrong" with them, if they really aren't a "normal" boy/girl, etc.
Anyway, point being, yes, this may sound/read like a long way of saying "oh it's just a phase", but, just like anything else at that age, it might be a phase. That study itself says it is, for about 2.5%. I'm certainly NOT saying the dipshits are right, nor am I saying prepubescent transitioning should be illegal or is wrong, BUT, it does mean that there is a decent percentage - yes, small, but let's be honest: the total percentage of trans people in society is also a minority and we do want to have them accepted and taken into account - for whom it was not the right call.**
Part of (my) hesitance about it is linked to the slippery slope and lack of proper follow-up and control. It's somewhat similar to, say, euthanasia, or abortion. I'm in favor of giving people the right to choose in all of those areas. But: I'm also somewhat afraid of making it "too" easy.
Should abortion be available, freely, anonymously to everyone? Yes.
Should abortion be available without a waiting period or given safe and correct information about the (medical) possibilities and risks, and other options? Hmmmaybe not.
Should euthanasia be available, freely, to everyone? Yes
Should euthanasia be available in cases of "mental anguish" without a second opinion, a psychological evaluation? Hmmmaybe not ("mental anguish" is actually a valid reason for euthanasia in Belgium, and there's currently a case ongoing about a 30-something old woman who chose euthanasia after her husband died. The children are suing for allowing it to go through)
Should euthanasia be available for people who can no longer express their own will? Yes.
Should euthanasia become an "easy out" for family who want to get rid of an elder family member in a coma or with dementia? Fuck no.
Should prepubescent transitioning be available, freely and openly? Yes.
Should prepubescent transitioning be available without a waiting period, a psychological consult, whatever? Hmmmmaybe not.
And just to mess it all up even further:
Should guns be available? Yes.***
Should guns be available without a psychological evaluation, a waiting period, a criminal background check? Hmmmmaybe not.

The goal should be to minimize (needless) suffering, and try to have as many people happy, with the minimum of intrusion or government control, while still protecting society and some people from themselves. Of course, the problem is that, in almost ALL of the above instances, those checks or controls can and will be abused by some who think the answer should be "no", to make it exceedingly hard (a 3 month waiting period for abortion, only allowed in the first trimester; a euthanasia waiting period of 6 months, a transitioning waiting period of 2 years and only after having 5 different psychiatrists all say there's no other way,...). Which is definitely not what I want. But it's hard to accept that in most of those topics, both "full YES" and "full NO"' are bad answers that will lead (or have already lead) to unnecessary suffering.


*If everyone girl who ever kissed a girl was then told, "sorry, you're now not allowed to EVER "go back" to being with a guy", we'd have a whole lot more unhappy women.

**Which will always happen. Some people will see transitioning as a solution while, for them, it isn't. The same is true for moving house, changing jobs, or whatever. People can get it wrong about what's ailing them. A lot of people who quit their job because they're unhappy may find they're still unhappy in another job. Some people may run from a relationship and find they never find someone else half as good.

***Yes, I've changed my mind on this topic over the years. It's allowed. It's called growth.
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely DO believe trans/enby/whatever people should all have all the rights they want and such. I'm all in favor of everyone being who they are.
I do think some prepuberty transition cases can be "iffy", but I accept that that's in large part simply because of my upbringing and because, well, it's not always being handled as well as it should which leads straight back to it being better if it was more normalized and accepted.

Having said that, looking at those numbers, that's 8 kids who transitioned back, and 11 who moved on to other gender identities (NB or whatever), out of 317. And I do have to say: those are higher numbers than I expected, honestly. 8 out of 300 is far from "one in a million".

Now, obviously, I agree that as far as some of these right wing nuts are concerned, a million trans kids could go hang themselves and as long as their little Bobby didn't have to face those filthy degenerates they couldn't care less., and that that's horrible.
However, these numbers do, up to a point, reinforce my hesitance towards (early) prepubescent medical transitioning. Teen years and puberty are a period in life where it's normal and important to experiment (with sexuality and plenty of other stuff). The amount of people who have kissed at least one person of the sex they don't end up preferring as a partner is pretty high. *
Now, I very emphatically don't believe in indoctrination/brainwashing/grooming by trans people forcing kids to transition. I don't. It's BS. In fact, I believe closed-minded people are a much more likely factor in pushing people - boys wearing make-up or liking fashion, girls liking baggy pants and climbing trees (and all kinds of variations on "not exactly fitting into the gender-assigned box" in some people's minds) have been told they "should behave like a real lady"/"aren't a real man"/"should dress more appropriately"/are gay/etc a million times. I think practically everyone here has heard at least something in that area at least once from some aunt or grandfather. THAT is actually more likely to push people to wondering if there is "something wrong" with them, if they really aren't a "normal" boy/girl, etc.
Anyway, point being, yes, this may sound/read like a long way of saying "oh it's just a phase", but, just like anything else at that age, it might be a phase. That study itself says it is, for about 2.5%. I'm certainly NOT saying the dipshits are right, nor am I saying prepubescent transitioning should be illegal or is wrong, BUT, it does mean that there is a decent percentage - yes, small, but let's be honest: the total percentage of trans people in society is also a minority and we do want to have them accepted and taken into account - for whom it was not the right call.**
Part of (my) hesitance about it is linked to the slippery slope and lack of proper follow-up and control. It's somewhat similar to, say, euthanasia, or abortion. I'm in favor of giving people the right to choose in all of those areas. But: I'm also somewhat afraid of making it "too" easy.
Should abortion be available, freely, anonymously to everyone? Yes.
Should abortion be available without a waiting period or given safe and correct information about the (medical) possibilities and risks, and other options? Hmmmaybe not.
Should euthanasia be available, freely, to everyone? Yes
Should euthanasia be available in cases of "mental anguish" without a second opinion, a psychological evaluation? Hmmmaybe not ("mental anguish" is actually a valid reason for euthanasia in Belgium, and there's currently a case ongoing about a 30-something old woman who chose euthanasia after her husband died. The children are suing for allowing it to go through)
Should euthanasia be available for people who can no longer express their own will? Yes.
Should euthanasia become an "easy out" for family who want to get rid of an elder family member in a coma or with dementia? Fuck no.
Should prepubescent transitioning be available, freely and openly? Yes.
Should prepubescent transitioning be available without a waiting period, a psychological consult, whatever? Hmmmmaybe not.
And just to mess it all up even further:
Should guns be available? Yes.***
Should guns be available without a psychological evaluation, a waiting period, a criminal background check? Hmmmmaybe not.

The goal should be to minimize (needless) suffering, and try to have as many people happy, with the minimum of intrusion or government control, while still protecting society and some people from themselves. Of course, the problem is that, in almost ALL of the above instances, those checks or controls can and will be abused by some who think the answer should be "no", to make it exceedingly hard (a 3 month waiting period for abortion, only allowed in the first trimester; a euthanasia waiting period of 6 months, a transitioning waiting period of 2 years and only after having 5 different psychiatrists all say there's no other way,...). Which is definitely not what I want. But it's hard to accept that in most of those topics, both "full YES" and "full NO"' are bad answers that will lead (or have already lead) to unnecessary suffering.


*If everyone girl who ever kissed a girl was then told, "sorry, you're now not allowed to EVER "go back" to being with a guy", we'd have a whole lot more unhappy women.

**Which will always happen. Some people will see transitioning as a solution while, for them, it isn't. The same is true for moving house, changing jobs, or whatever. People can get it wrong about what's ailing them. A lot of people who quit their job because they're unhappy may find they're still unhappy in another job. Some people may run from a relationship and find they never find someone else half as good.

***Yes, I've changed my mind on this topic over the years. It's allowed. It's called growth.
I'm not an expert on this by any means, but afaik there is no pre-puberty medical transitioning. The expert opinion right now seems to be that puberty blockers are the best choice for trans youths, to give them time to try transitioning (without hormones) and go from there, giving the ability to delay puberty and make a more informed decision without the time limit of puberty making possible hormonal treatment more difficult. The science also seems to show that puberty blockers are safe and fully reversal with no long term effects should they choose not to transition.
 
These people have obviously never heard of Goodhart’s Law.
The science also seems to show that puberty blockers are safe and fully reversal with no long term effects should they choose not to transition.
I‘ve read that puberty blockers can inadvertently s(t)imulate the unpleasant parts of menopause (heh “men-o-pause”) but have not seen any horror stories of AND THIS IS THE TERRIBLE WAY YOU END UP from the naysayers so assume final physical impact is minimal.

—Patrick
 
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Man, somebody is doing an A+ job of torpedoing his career. It’s almost like he shouldn’t have tried to score cheap political points by making up lies about other, more powerful members of Congress.

Who could have seen THAT coming.
 
Industry trying to shift the blame again. "You should drive less to put out less CO2" It's not commuters, it's industry.

And now "oh no, your water bottles mean everybody's got microplastics in their bodies" NOPE IT'S INDUSTRY AGAIN

I spent ten years getting a fancy degree in environmental science and management, I traveled the world, I did studies and field work in every conceivable situation. and after all that, this, this was my take away.

every major environmental issue has been construed as a consumer issue, that if we do our part we can reduce the problem, it has never been about what you and I do and always about how major industrial corporations have shaken the reality that they should be made to run a cleaner process no matter how much they feel it hurts their profitability. they have gas lit the world to save themselves from having to be better, and they should be regulated to death for their transgressions.
 
Not all at once, no.

Ooo, now I want a political cartoon of the Grand Canyon labeled "Democracy" with the Colorado relabled "the GOP River."

--Patrick
 
Oncor called two weeks ago because they wanted to install a new electrical usage gauge on the side of the house. Guy just came in, slapped off the old one, smashed on a new one and then left.

Since then I've had a ceiling fan capacitor went out, a computer PSU failed, and just yesterday the blower in my AC burned out.

I know it's likely just a coincidence, but really wouldn't put it past them to fuck something up.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Somebody remind me why we put up with Erdogan and give him a seat at the big kids' table?

 
Somebody remind me why we put up with Erdogan and give him a seat at the big kids' table?

He probably just wants some kind of concession from the rest of NATO (which he'll probably get) but it's entirely likely that Turkey would get removed from NATO in favor of Sweden and Finland, if only because they are much more likely to actually contribute to the organization and not be disruptive, if it came down to it.
 
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