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Town Covers Up Gang Rape to Protect High School Football Season

#1

Zappit

Zappit

Just horrifying details on how virtually the entire town of Steubenville, Ohio is covering up a gang rape because it involved members of the high school football team.

http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawst...-ohio-gang-rape-case,50e59189d7fc7b5670d303c3

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/nati...us-hacking-file-steubenville-rape-crew/60502/

If not for Anonymous, this case would never even see the light of day. The two suspects were transferred to juvenile court, and the team's coach has connections to that court. He's even employed as a mediator there. He is also friends with the police chief. The details collected by the hackers and released through Live Leak, and the information gathered by journalists in incredibly damning. It seems clear that while an assault sure as hell took place, and the little bastards who committed the crime are actually proud of it and brag, that the adults in power in Steubenville have no intention to do anything about it. The high school football team is untouchable, and the players know it.

Anonymous has threatened more action against those involved if they do not fess up in front of the evidence quickly piling up. So far, they've made good on their threats. Unless the Feds step in, they might be the only ones who will act.


#2

T

The_Khan

jeesus, that is disgusting. Some people in this world.


#3

Yoshimickster

Yoshimickster

Well...thank you Anonymous. I don't agree with every thing they do but dammit if they weren't on the side of justice this time. Jesus fucking fuck, people are awful.


#4

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

At this rate, Anonymous will become the new justice.

Well, if they can keep their attention span on it long enough.


#5

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Yep, that sounds like Steubenville.


#6

Silent Bob

Silent Bob

I watched the video where these kids were joking about the event. I think the one kid is a sociopath. He showed absolutely no remorse for what he did, even when one of his own friends interjected and asked him to stop with the rape jokes.


#7

bhamv3

bhamv3

Were they asking him to stop with the rape jokes because they were in poor taste, or did they ask him to stop talking about the rape because it might incriminate them?

I ask because I haven't seen the video, nor do I want to, but maybe they're all sociopaths, except one of them is a particularly dumb one.


#8

Silent Bob

Silent Bob

Were they asking him to stop with the rape jokes because they were in poor taste, or did they ask him to stop talking about the rape because it might incriminate them?

I ask because I haven't seen the video, nor do I want to, but maybe they're all sociopaths, except one of them is a particularly dumb one.
Poor taste, I guess. The guy was in the background somewhere and told the kid to stop and how would he feel if he had a daughter and this happened to her.

And poor taste are hardly the words to describe it.


#9

bhamv3

bhamv3

Poor taste, I guess. The guy was in the background somewhere and told the kid to stop and how would he feel if he had a daughter and this happened to her.

And poor taste are hardly the words to describe it.
Yeah I was trying to find a better phrase to describe it, but went with poor taste in the end.


#10

T

The_Khan

It's barbaric and these same people are the types that blame the victim. I'm just thankful that with birth control and other methods of contraceptive, rape isn't as viable of a reproductive method as it has been in the past, so these kinds of creatures will not reproduce as often.


#11

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

What the shit...


#12

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

In my day, the only special treatment football players got was diplomas they didn't earn.


#13

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

This is probably the worst abuse I've heard, but it's pretty routine for hotshot high school athletes to get things like free cars, out of trouble with the law, and to not have to attend class (or at least it was a decade back when I was still in school). It's basically seen as the only way these kids will ever succeed at life and their parents/the community will do whatever it takes to help them, as long is brings in money and attention.

Really, professional athletes are Ohio's third largest export, after Astronauts and crippling depression.


#14

figmentPez

figmentPez

Sadly, I don't think this is the first gang rape to be covered up in the name of football. I seem to recall that it happened in an east Texas town about a decade ago. Maybe that was just a single assailant, though.


#15

Cajungal

Cajungal

Monsters.


#16

tegid

tegid

Oh God. This is sad, disgusting and... unbelievable. It seems like it was taken from a movie :/

EDIT:

Ugh, the part about the coach saying she must've made it up... I have no adjectives for it.


#17

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Fucking disgusting. No-one should get a by from Justice. No matter what the reasoning. What a fucked-up value system.


#18

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Too many parents and other people of authority find it hard to see their little snowflake as the monster that they are.

Why is it up to the coach to discipline the kids. His only responsibility is to co-operate with the investigation.

You don't have to cut a kid if he's sitting in jail.


#19

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

This just makes me sick. Absolutely sick. I don't even have the words to convey how horrible this situation is. Not only the monsters who perpetrated it but the idiots trying to cover it all up.


#20

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Football's effects on small towns can be incredibly toxic.


#21

GasBandit

GasBandit

I think I might be (well, and Charlie) the only person in Texas who isn't absolutely psychotic from my brain being cooked by football fever due to overdoses of direct intravenous pigskin injections. When I first heard about this story I thought "goddamn it, Texas, here we go again" but to my surprise it wasn't...

I watched the video where these kids were joking about the event. I think the one kid is a sociopath. He showed absolutely no remorse for what he did, even when one of his own friends interjected and asked him to stop with the rape jokes.
I'm firmly convinced that all humans start out as sociopaths, and it is only through forceful, effective parenting that these tiny monsters ever hope to function in society without being let off the metaphorical choke chain of immediate negative consequences. Unfortunately, that's getting to be more and more rare as time goes on.

evil-baby-closeup.jpg


"If I could smother you in your sleep and take what I want, I would, but I haven't developed the manual dexterity yet. The clock is ticking on teaching me right from wrong. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock."


#22

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

I think I might be (well, and Charlie) the only person in Texas who isn't absolutely psychotic from my brain being cooked by football fever due to overdoses of direct intravenous pigskin injections. When I first heard about this story I thought "goddamn it, Texas, here we go again" but to my surprise it wasn't...
As a native from California where no one gave a shit about football, I had to start pretending I knew what was going on half the time because some people can be downright insulted if you don't. When that guy in the burnt orange hummer wearing a jersey asks you if you were excited about the big game, just say "Yes! Totally! Hook'em!".

Also, never say anything positive about Aggies. They will never find your body.

As for the original article, it's downright sickening.


#23

Espy

Espy

This is so terrible I can't even make a Friday Night Lights joke or reference.

Seriously. I almost feel like I'm gonna throw up.


#24

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I think I might be (well, and Charlie) the only person in Texas who isn't absolutely psychotic from my brain being cooked by football fever due to overdoses of direct intravenous pigskin injections. When I first heard about this story I thought "goddamn it, Texas, here we go again" but to my surprise it wasn't...



I'm firmly convinced that all humans start out as sociopaths, and it is only through forceful, effective parenting that these tiny monsters ever hope to function in society without being let off the metaphorical choke chain of immediate negative consequences. Unfortunately, that's getting to be more and more rare as time goes on.

View attachment 9585

"If I could smother you in your sleep and take what I want, I would, but I haven't developed the manual dexterity yet. The clock is ticking on teaching me right from wrong. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock."
I live in Texas and I don't like football


#25

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I live in Texas and I don't like football
I do love the shit out of my guns though, so there's still that stereotype


#26

GasBandit

GasBandit

I live in Texas and I don't like football
Realistically, that's probably a safe bet for most Texans who happen to post here, but we can all attest to the phenomenon of which I speak.


#27

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

I am just nuckin' futz about Football, and Guns... and the ACLU...

and this article sickens me.


#28

Necronic

Necronic

Well, if there are serious enough accusations of prosecutorial misconduct (either w/ DA or Sherriff) then its safe to bet that the Justice Department (or State equivalent) will start looking into it. It's kind of good to know that we do have a system that can stop this stuff when it gets out there.

Some of the defenses being made by people there are just apalling though.

Edit: One possible punishment for this town would be to convince John McAffee to come there and "find out the truth, no matter what".


#29

Bubble181

Bubble181

Liking or not liking football doesn't enter into, to my mind, though. I mean, the guy next to me may be "the Dalai Lama meets Stephen Hawking, my brother in law, rich and about to give me money", but if he rapes a girl, I'm still not going to let it pass.
Those covering it up because they thought there was genuinely nothing going on/victim blaming, are idiots. Those covering it up because they thought football was more important than a girl (or more) being raped, can go and get a lifelong ban on football, a chemical castration, and 25 years of community services along with those star football players that did it (if they did, of course - I fully believe the sheriff and DA were hiding what happened, but I'll wait for a court to speak on this instead of just accepting and believing anything Anonymous says, too), whose castrations don't have to be chemical for all I care.


#30

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

a chemical castration, and 25 years of community services along with those star football players that did it (if they did, of course - I fully believe the sheriff and DA were hiding what happened, but I'll wait for a court to speak on this instead of just accepting and believing anything Anonymous says, too), whose castrations don't have to be chemical for all I care.

This is utterly barbaric and makes you look as bad as the rapists. This is why the US has a "cruel and unusual punishment" thing in the Constitution.


#31

Bubble181

Bubble181

This is utterly barbaric and makes you look as bad as the rapists. This is why the US has a "cruel and unusual punishment" thing in the Constitution.
*yawn* and not being able to recognise hyperbole makes you an idiot who can easily "counter" any argument by thinking everyone is either an extreme hippie or an extreme fascist, and thus only fighting those extremes. I don't think people should be castrated; on the other hand, just last month a couple was convicted in Belgium for prostituting their 12 y/o twins. They got heavy prison time and fines....for not declaring the income on their tax returns. For child abuse, prostitution, inciting to abuse, and so on? Eh, 2 years. That not a just justice system makes.


#32

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

This is utterly barbaric and makes you look as bad as the rapists. This is why the US has a "cruel and unusual punishment" thing in the Constitution.

Tell us Charlie, what punishment is fitting for crimes of this nature? Pat on the back? Slap on the wrist? A stern lecture? Yeah, a stern lecture with lots of finger pointing and hand waving... that should do the trick.

As far as I'm concerned these little bastards should be locked up and have the key thrown away... and the adults protecting them can have the same damn thing.


#33

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

*yawn* and not being able to recognise hyperbole makes you an idiot who can easily "counter" any argument by thinking everyone is either an extreme hippie or an extreme fascist, and thus only fighting those extremes. I don't think people should be castrated; on the other hand, just last month a couple was convicted in Belgium for prostituting their 12 y/o twins. They got heavy prison time and fines....for not declaring the income on their tax returns. For child abuse, prostitution, inciting to abuse, and so on? Eh, 2 years. That not a just justice system makes.

To be fair, I didn't think you were using hyperbole, but then I've come to expect these kinds of revenge fantasies in cases like this.


#34

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Tell us Charlie, what punishment is fitting for crimes of this nature? Pat on the back? Slap on the wrist? A stern lecture? Yeah, a stern lecture with lots of finger pointing and hand waving... that should do the trick.

As far as I'm concerned these little bastards should be locked up and have the key thrown away... and the adults protecting them can have the same damn thing.
let's try something new: rehabilitation


#35

Covar

Covar

let's try something new: rehabilitation
Or even a trial first.


#36

GasBandit

GasBandit

let's try something new: rehabilitation
So, potentially, I can do anything I want so long as I repent afterwards?


#37

Covar

Covar

So, potentially, I can do anything I want so long as I repent afterwards?
Hell, according to some southern baptists I've talked to you don't even have to repent, just accept Jesus into your heart as your lord and savior. But that's an unrelated idiocy for another thread.


#38

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

So, potentially, I can do anything I want so long as I repent afterwards?
Huh? no. I don't think that word means what you think it means.


#39

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

let's try something new: rehabilitation

I'm going to say that your boundless optimism about people's ability to be rehabilitated is nothing short of amazing. Just so we're clear, I do believe rehabilitation can work well for many things... but violent crime is not one of them (imo).

Or even a trial first.
Well that's kind of a given... we are only arguing hypothetically here.


#40

GasBandit

GasBandit

ludovico.jpg


#41

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

I'm super hesitant about stepping into this discussion, beyond the nightmare fuel the OP provides, but does anyone have the recidivism numbers for violent crime by punishment (jailtime, therapy, etc.)?


#42

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

I want to make that my desktop on my work machine, but too many people see my desktop...


#43

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Treat people like human beings, and they just might act like human beings. If you think the United States Criminal Justice System treats anyone involved with it like a human being, then I think you're a fucking idiot.


#44

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

Treat people like human beings, and they just might act like human beings. If you think the United States Criminal Justice System treats anyone involved with it like a human being, then I think you're a fucking idiot.

Maybe those animals should have given that girl the same consideration hmmmm?


#45

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Maybe those animals should have given that girl the same consideration hmmmm?
We can't go around protecting victims by keeping the confused, nice people off the streets. No matter how many people that they hurt.


#46

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Maybe those animals should have given that girl the same consideration hmmmm?
Please leave "Eye for an eye" arguments back in third world countries and ancient religions where they belong, not in a civilized society in the year 2013. Thanks.


#47

GasBandit

GasBandit

I must say, if I get the chance, I'd prefer to live in a world where CharlieJustice is reality. Because I will fucking conquer the shit out of that world.


#48

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

Please leave "Eye for an eye" arguments back in third world countries and ancient religions where they belong, not in a civilized society in the year 2013. Thanks.

I haven't even suggested any "eye for an eye" treatments Charlie other than locking them up. Maybe you should learn to read.

It's just kind of hypocritical to post shit like "treat people like human beings and maybe they'll act like human beings" about the alleged rapists and completely neglect to say anything about the poor girl who was assaulted.

Again Charlie... what about the alleged victim? What about her rights? Does she not deserve to have her liberty protected? Is she not worthy of it or something? You're all over the bullshit map here.[DOUBLEPOST=1357666879][/DOUBLEPOST]
I must say, if I get the chance, I'd prefer to live in a world where CharlieJustice is reality. Because I will fucking conquer the shit out of that world.

Well, I'm pretty sure you could fake your way out of Charlie rehab and back into society pretty easily.


#49

GasBandit

GasBandit

Well, I'm pretty sure you could fake your way out of Charlie rehab and back into society pretty easily.
Yeah, it's like GTA - go on a supervillainous spree, mass mayhem murder and malfeasance... and if I fail, a few years vacation while I "rehabilitate" and then try again having learned what tripped me up last time. It's like the Konami Code of criminality.

Also, people who say things like "act like human beings" are woefully ignorant of all of human history.


#50

T

The_Khan

A friend of mine is a vet, she lives in the middle of no where northern Canada. She was raped by a group of loggers, she then convinced them to go home with her, "for some more"

she may or may not have put sleeping pills in their beer and castrated them in their sleep. She lost her license to practice medicine, but other then that suffered no real punishment.

Does this make her a criminal?

In the middle of no where Canada, you might have one RCMP officer in a 100 km radius.


#51

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Does this make her a criminal?.
Absolutely


#52

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

A friend of mine is a vet, she lives in the middle of no where northern Canada. She was raped by a group of loggers, she then convinced them to go home with her, "for some more"

she may or may not have put sleeping pills in their beer and castrated them in their sleep. She lost her license to practice medicine, but other then that suffered no real punishment.

Does this make her a criminal?

In the middle of no where Canada, you might have one RCMP officer in a 100 km radius.
That's kinda terrifying all around.


#53

SpecialKO

SpecialKO



#54

T

The_Khan

Absolutely
the judge didn't think so.

No, I'm not Shegs


#55

LordRendar

LordRendar

He probably means your friend.


#56

ThatGrinningIdiot!

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Usually her little fantasies get a chuckle from me. However, were she harmed in that manner, and those men were under her control. I doubt castration alone would be punishment enough. Of course it is only idle speculation on my part.

Oh, and it's better for humanity if rapists are put to death, mmmkay?


#57

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

He probably means your friend.
No, no, I meant Khan, in the way of just checking that we weren't repeating the circumstances that got Straub and Tastemaker to say "Fuck it!" and nuke HP.


#58

Frank

Frank

A friend of mine is a vet, she lives in the middle of no where northern Canada. She was raped by a group of loggers, she then convinced them to go home with her, "for some more"

she may or may not have put sleeping pills in their beer and castrated them in their sleep. She lost her license to practice medicine, but other then that suffered no real punishment.

Does this make her a criminal?

In the middle of no where Canada, you might have one RCMP officer in a 100 km radius.
She was in the Yukon wasn't she?


#59

T

The_Khan

If im not mistaken,

And less a friend than a relative of a friend so could be myth. Have heard of similar things happening. I'm just trying to generate debate on the subject. Some people are suggesting that this should be the institutional response to rape. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or created a hostile climate.


#60

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Oh, and it's better for humanity if rapists are put to death, mmmkay?
Actually, no.


#61

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

Actually, no.

I'm just going to put this out there... but if you ever have kids someday you may revise your opinion on these things.


#62

blotsfan

blotsfan

I'm actually with Charlie on this. It'd be nice to know who was 100% a rapist and kill them, but given ambiguity and the cost of putting someone to death, I think we'd be better off with life in prison.


#63

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Castrate them and lock them up. They lost their rights as a "human being" the moment they goddamn gang raped a girl.


#64

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Castrate them and lock them up. They lost their rights as a "human being" the moment they goddamn gang raped a girl.
No. They don't. We have this Constitution.



#66

Dirona

Dirona

Ya, and we've seen that these guys really feel bad and want to be forgiven.

I'm all for restorative justice, but the violent offenders need to actually want to be involved. The... individuals... involved in this case have shown no such inclination from what I've read.


#67

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Ya, and we've seen that these guys really feel bad and want to be forgiven.

I'm all for restorative justice, but the violent offenders need to actually want to be involved. The... individuals... involved in this case have shown no such inclination from what I've read.
That is a very salient point. I've read that generally crimes of passion offenders are extremely remorseful, and so restorative justice could very well work.

But if they aren't, as the OP makes the alleged rapists seem, I'm skeptical about it being useful. They just seem like predators who need to be tried, found guilty, and locked up, along with the people protecting them.


#68

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm not saying that every criminal can be rehabilitated. I don't think the Norway Massacre guy, almost any terrorist, should ever be released from prison. But saying stuff like all rapists (including young teenaged ones like in this story) should be castrated/murdered/imprisoned forever just is way too broad a stroke.


#69

GasBandit

GasBandit

Legalize 54th trimester abortions.


#70

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Charlie Don't Surf, this doesn't really look like a public policy institute to me, I think you can make allowances for emotional hyperbole in the face of strong empathetic reactions to tragedy and the baser human condition.


#71

Krisken

Krisken

You don't know if they're bad when they're 13.5 years old.
Gas knows. He knows everything. The all powerful Gasbandit, towering over us mental midgets.


#72

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

To sum up this thread:



#73

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

What vexes you?


#74

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

No. They don't. We have this Constitution.
Did you really just say that while at the same time being vehemently anti gun?


#75

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Did you really just say that while at the same time being vehemently anti gun?
The Constitution is as wrong on legalizing guns as it was wrong on Prohibition imo


#76

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

The Constitution is as wrong on legalizing guns as it was wrong on Prohibition imo
That doesn't really address your argument there. In fact, it kind of undercuts it.


#77

GasBandit

GasBandit

The Constitution is as wrong on legalizing guns as it was wrong on Prohibition imo
I think his point was, you can't use the constitution, standing on its own, as an unassailable shield for your arguments on punishment when you've been poking holes in it for your other pet issues.


#78

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Alright, let me try again: I agree with the constitution on outlawing cruel and unusual punishment, and disagree on it with guns.


#79

T

The_Khan

I'm not saying that every criminal can be rehabilitated. I don't think the Norway Massacre guy, almost any terrorist, should ever be released from prison. But saying stuff like all rapists (including young teenaged ones like in this story) should be castrated/murdered/imprisoned forever just is way too broad a stroke.
If you talked more like this, I wouldn't think you're a raving lunatic.


#80

Bubble181

Bubble181

Alright, let me try again: I agree with the constitution on outlawing cruel and unusual punishment, and disagree on it with guns.
That's all fine and dandy, but your agreement with any part of it is inconsequential. Either you say "the Constitution is a historic document, that should be read and reinterpreted, allowing for changing cultural values", or you say "the Constitution is holy and untouchable, it's a text set forth by infallible superhumans" (guess which one I consider the correct way of dealing with the Constitution? Or the Bible or Quran, for that matter?). You can't claim the Constitution as an authority argument here, and dismiss the exact same argument over there.
I mean, you can, but it makes you look weak and/or hypocritical.

That said, I'm all in favour of restorative options and reintegrating criminals into society - it's possible in a lot of cases, with proper treatment, education and/or giving new hope. Yes, even rapists can be reintegrated in society, in many cases. That's my moral and intellectual self. On the other hand, my baser desires and instincts do tell me to exterminate anything endangering the species, especially those who hurt children or the young. This is why you need impartial and fair judges: vengeance isn't justice, and while oone may be fun, it's the other we should be striving for.


#81

Espy

Espy

I thinks it's constitutionally fair that if you own anything bigger than a handgun or hunting rifle you need to be a part of a well-regulated militia.


#82

GasBandit

GasBandit

I thinks it's constitutionally fair that if you own anything bigger than a handgun or hunting rifle you need to be a part of a well-regulated militia.
FORTHEUPMPTEENTHTIME"WELLREGULATEDMILITIA"DOESNOTMEANSTRICTLYCONTROLLEDBYTHEGOVERNMENTITMEANSWELLRUNNINGANDWELLEQUIPPEDTO"REGULAR"STANDARDS


#83

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

FORTHEUPMPTEENTHTIME"WELLREGULATEDMILITIA"DOESNOTMEANSTRICTLYCONTROLLEDBYTHEGOVERNMENTITMEANSWELLRUNNINGANDWELLEQUIPPEDTO"REGULAR"STANDARDS
hmm.. this sounds like an activist judge trying to rewrite the Constitution for their own wants to me.....


#84

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

hmm.. this sounds like an activist judge trying to rewrite the Constitution for their own wants to me.....
It actually sounds more like a congressional scholar or languages professor remarking on what those words actually meant at the time as opposed to now.

Also, wasn't this thread about some asshole rapists? Why are we discussing guns here when we already have a thread going about that?


#85

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Also, wasn't this thread about some asshole rapists? Why are we discussing guns here when we already have a thread going about that?
Because everyone started jerking off to their sick and twisted revenge and castration penalties, and I said I supported the "cruel and unusual punishment" part of the Constitution.


#86

GasBandit

GasBandit

hmm.. this sounds like an activist judge trying to rewrite the Constitution for their own wants to me.....
What doesn't?

But seriously, that's a point that's been made in every single gun control thread since three forums back.
On the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment
Henry E. Schaffer

"Whereas in all well regulated Governments, it is the indispensable duty
of every Legislature to consult the Happiness of a rising Generation,
and endeavour to fit them for an honorable Discharge of the Social
Duties of Life, by paying the strictest attention to their Education."

These resounding words were the opening of a November 12, 1789 Act of
the North Carolina Legislature which was passed on December 11, 1789 and
which chartered the University of North Carolina. Noting that this Act
was contemporaneous with the Bill of Rights (which was transmitted to the
state legislatures on September 25, 1789) and that the North Carolina
Legislature was active at that time, North Carolina being one of the
original 13 states, let us pay particular attention to the usage of the
words "well regulated" found both in this Act and in the 2nd Amendment
of the BoR. The use of "well regulated" in this act can shed some light
on the meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary
to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and
bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The debate between the collectivist and the individualist
interpretations of the 2nd has often focused on the meaning of "well
regulated" in the opening phrase "well regulated Militia". The
collectivists claim this this refers to a Militia which is tightly
controlled by the government, deducing this from the etymology of
"regulated" which relates to "ruled". However, this ignores the usage
of the word "regulate" in which the "rule" refers to the proper
operations of a device rather than to man-made laws. We still see this
in the word "regular", which in many contexts means "properly operating."

Let me give two examples of usage of the word "regulate" which have
been in existence for quite a long time and which have the same
"properly operating" interpretation.

1) Horology: The adjustment of a portable timepiece so it will keep
time in the different positions in which it may be carried and kept (and
perhaps at the different temperatures which it may encounter.) A
(mechanical) wrist-watch which has been so designed and adjusted is said
to be "regulated" and likely has this word stamped or engraved on its
back-plate.

2)Firearms: The adjustment of a multi-barrel firearm (e.g., a double
barrelled shotgun) so that the barrels shoot to the same point-of-aim.
If such a gun (a double-barrelled shotgun or a three barreled "drilling")
fails to shoot properly, it is considered to be "out of regulation" and
needs to be "re-regulated".

Both of these uses have meanings *related* to the "to rule" of
man-made laws, but are more in the nature of "to adjust to or to be in
a state of proper functioning". So a "well regulated watch" or a "well
regulated double barreled shotgun" both would have meaning of "having
been put into properly functioning condition".

From my reading of material from the colonial era, I have come to
understand that "well regulated militia" had a meaning at that time
(ca. 1789) in the nature of "a properly functioning militia" - which
would mean something along the lines of a properly trained and equipped
militia (since it was common at that time for militiamen to bring their
own firearms, with which they were already proficient.)

The language of the NC Legislature in 1789 strengthens this
interpretation. What can "well regulated Governments" mean other
than "properly functioning Governments"? Surely it didn't and
couldn't refer to a government under the control of man-made laws, for
it is the government itself which makes these laws, and it would neither
be noble nor sensible for the Legislature to be proclaiming that it is
controlling itself.

An additional contemporaneous document which exhibits the same
meaning is the Federalist Paper #29, in which Hamilton is discussing
the composition of the militia and says, "To oblige the great body of
the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under
arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and
evolutions, as often as might be necessary to_acquire_the_degree_of_
perfection_which_would_entitle_them_to_the_character_of_a_
well-regulated_militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a
serious public inconvenience and loss." (emphasis added)

Note that "well-regulated" clearly refers to how well the militia
functions and how well trained are the militia members. It does not
refer at all to the degree to which the government controls the militia
or the members of the militia.

This interpretation is also borne out by some old or obsolete
definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Regulated" has an
Obsolete definition (b) "Of troops: Properly disciplined" and then
"discipline" has a definition (3b) applying to the military, "Training
in the practice of arms and military evolutions; drill. Formerly, more
widely: Training or skill in military affairs generally; military skill
and experience; the art of war."

The "people" have the 2nd Amendment right, not the militia. Today
many people make a large distinction between the two groups, perhaps
confusing "militia" and "Army". The militia is more inclusive,
including the Armed Forces, the National Guard and the unorganized
component described in the U.S. Code as "The militia of the United
States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and,
except [for felons], under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States..."
The age and gender restrictions might be challenged as discriminatory.
The historical basis for a more inclusive definition includes the U. S.
Supreme Court statement that "It is undoubtedly true that all citizens
capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved militia force or
reserve militia of the United States as well as the States; ..." From
this we see that the mention of the militia does not conflict with the
individualist interpretation.

Therefore I conclude that the meaning of the 2nd Amendment is, "A
properly functioning Militia is necessary to the security of a free
State; therefore the (pre-existing) right of the people to keep and bear
Arms shall not be infringed."

References:

Act of NC Legislature of Nov. 12, 1789 - Legislative Papers, H. of C.,
1789, AH. Cited in A Documentary History of The University of North
Carolina 1776-1799 Compiled and Annotated by R. D. W. Connor The
University of North Carolina Press 1953. Volume 1, page 23.

Original Charter of the University, December 11, 1789, An Act to
Establish a University in this State. N. C. Laws, 1789, S. R., XXV,
Chap. XX, 21-25. Cited in Connor (1953) Volume 1, page 34.

Federalist Paper #29

Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, 1989.

United States Code, Title 10, Section 311(a)

Supreme Court, Presser v. Illinois 116 U.S. 252

Not only that, but his point about "you should have to belong to a militia" is moot because according to 10 USC 311, if you're a male between 17 and 45, you ARE automatically in the militia.


#87

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

Because everyone started jerking off to their sick and twisted revenge and castration penalties, and I said I supported the "cruel and unusual punishment" part of the Constitution.

Not everyone did and you know it. Quit being a dick.


#88

MindDetective

MindDetective

Not only that, but his point about "you should have to belong to a militia" is moot because according to 10 USC 311, if you're a male between 17 and 45, you ARE automatically in the militia.
This part seems the most easily changeable to me.


#89

Espy

Espy

FORTHEUPMPTEENTHTIME"WELLREGULATEDMILITIA"DOESNOTMEANSTRICTLYCONTROLLEDBYTHEGOVERNMENTITMEANSWELLRUNNINGANDWELLEQUIPPEDTO"REGULAR"STANDARDS
According to the supreme court it means slightly more than you would like it to apparently:
Meaning of "well regulated militia"

The term "regulated" means "disciplined" or "trained".[120] In Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court stated that "[t]he adjective 'well-regulated' implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training."[121]
In Federalist No. 29, Alexander Hamilton suggested that well-regulated refers not only to "organizing", "disciplining", and "training" the militia, but also to "arming" the militia:
This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress."[48]
A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss.[48]
"If a well regulated militia be the most natural defence of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security...confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority...(and) reserving to the states...the authority of training the militia".[48]
I don't know any gun owners, myself included who are a part of anything resembling this. Personally I think it's safe to say both sides of the gun control argument have moved beyond the framers concept for the 2nd amendment and have both modernized it. I'm ok with that mind you, I don't think anti-gun control arguments are all bad nor do I think that guns should be banned. I do think there are some serious issues regarding how guns are bought and sold and regulated.


#90

Espy

Espy

Like I said in my post, obviously it's moved beyond that. Both sides have modernized their take, and clearly the Supreme Court is dealing with that more modern take on it. I'm okay with this. But lets not pretend that the founders didn't think we needed a militia to protect from tyranny.


#91

GasBandit

GasBandit

Like I said in my post, obviously it's moved beyond that. Both sides have modernized their take, and clearly the Supreme Court is dealing with that more modern take on it. I'm okay with this. But lets not pretend that the founders didn't think we needed a militia to protect from tyranny.
Well, there we're also running into the definition of militia - the applicable definition of militia here is any able bodied male civilian unconnected with the armed forces. There isn't a government body called "the militia," there isn't a place to go to join "the militia," militia is just a term for peasants with firearms acting in a militant manner.



#93

Dave

Dave

As it should have been if everything we've heard is what really happened.


#94

Tress

Tress

As it should have been if everything we've heard is what really happened.
Oh, didn't you hear? She totally had it coming. She drank alcohol, and you know about those girls who drink alcohol: total sluts that deserve to be raped.

(That's pretty close to the actual argument the defense lawyer put forth. Now. In 2013. :facepalm: )


#95

figmentPez

figmentPez

A nice start. I don't think justice will have been done until all those who tried to cover up the crimes are convicted and punished as well.


#96

Dave

Dave

I can't find the link, but apparently CNN was more worried about the poor boys and the promising football careers they threw away than the girl. I really wish I could find the link because it's hard to fathom.


#97

Dave

Dave

I have much more disdain for the adults in this story than the kids. Why were high school students allowed to be out until 2-4 am drinking? People wonder why football players get to college or pros and act like they can do anything they like - because it's what they learned. These guys obviously thought nothing was going to happen to them because everyone and their dog tried to cover it up. Were it not for Anonymous getting involved, I rather doubt anything would have come of it.


#98

figmentPez

figmentPez

I'd like to see accessory to rape charges put against those adults who supplied the alcohol, personally.
So would I, but don't you know that saying that teenagers shouldn't be getting drunk is blaming the victim?


#99

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I just hope some people see this and realize that rape / sexual asssault is so much more often something like this instead of the stranger jumping from the shadows at night with a gun. And taking advantage of girls like this brings the same consequences and will put you on the same registry for the rest of your life.


#100

figmentPez

figmentPez

Were it not for Anonymous getting involved, I rather doubt anything would have come of it.
Did you see the headline at Breitbart.com? "Guilty Verdict in Steubenville Rape Case that Saw Anonymous Terrorize a Town".


#101

Dave

Dave

Did you see the headline at Breitbart.com? "Guilty Verdict in Steubenville Rape Case that Saw Anonymous Terrorize a Town".
Are you serious?!?[DOUBLEPOST=1363635172][/DOUBLEPOST]Jesus Christ I just read that article. I have no words. And the comments...oh dear and fluffy lord the comments....


#102

figmentPez

figmentPez

Are you serious?!?
Sadly, yes. I only skimmed the article, but it claims that Anonymous intimidated witnesses, humiliated the victim by forcing her into the spotlight, and is the result of a conspiracy to falsely portray the US as promoting rape culture. Generally the article seems to be centered around the idea that this sexual assault shouldn't have been national news.


#103

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

breitbart dot com owns.

ALSO I disagree with nearly everything Steinman has said above


#104

GasBandit

GasBandit

breitbart dot com owns.

ALSO I disagree with nearly everything Steinman has said above
You did catch the sarcasm, right?


#105

blotsfan

blotsfan

I don't see the parents (or whoever provided alcohol) as particularly bad. Late night drinking parties are fairly common in high school. The vast majority of them do not end up in rape. Giving high schoolers alcohol is not the same as helping rape happen.


#106

figmentPez

figmentPez

Oh rats, I forgot.

I'm sure this would have happened even if none of these teenagers were drinking, thus making the adult who provided the alcohol free of blame. He or she was just providing a little mood lightening drink to help these troubled teens relax a little bit.

Of course, there are all these cases where wrongfull death suits are brought against people who supplied alcohol to minors that ended up having a car wreck due to their drinking. Quite frankly the victim, and possibly her attackers, have a case against them.

And if more such cases were brought up and adults found out that they might be responsible for the behavior of drunk teens, they might more frequently reconsider supplying the alcohol in the future.
I agree with you. Living in Kingwood, Texas I've heard far too many stories about the bad things that can happen when adults supply alcohol (and drugs) to minors. I don't even want to think about how many rapes have occurred because of it, and been covered up because the "bubble city" has to maintain it's reputation as a safe place to raise children. I don't doubt that there are stories that would make Steubenville pale in comparison.

The sad thing is that this still could have happened without the alcohol. Sexual assault does still occur, even when the victim and assailants are sober, just as car accidents happen without alcohol. However, it's also true that an abundance of alcohol tends to make bad situations worse, and the adults involved should be prosecuted for their part in things, and it did play a part.[DOUBLEPOST=1363636618][/DOUBLEPOST]
I don't see the parents (or whoever provided alcohol) as particularly bad. Late night drinking parties are fairly common in high school. The vast majority of them do not end up in rape. Giving high schoolers alcohol is not the same as helping rape happen.
From the amount of bad things that I've heard about happening at drinking parties, yeah it is the same thing. It's not always rape, but it's often enough something bad that it is reckless to be supplying teenagers with alcohol.

Also, it's not just that they gave them booze, it's that they helped cover up the crime afterwards.


#107

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

The solution isn't to stigmatize alcohol even further to young people; the solution is to continue teaching men to not rape women.


#108

figmentPez

figmentPez

The solution isn't to stigmatize alcohol even further to young people; the solution is to continue teaching men to not rape women.
While we do need to teach men that rape is unacceptable, and how to define rape accurately... and there's a good argument to make for promoting a balanced view of alcohol... It's still not good for teenagers to be getting drunk, especially not en masse. We teach that theft and destruction of public property is unacceptable, but drunk kids still go out and destroy mailboxes or, more spectacularly, drive a front-loader though the wall of a middle school. The problem here is not simply that these kids may not have been told "don't rape"; it's that they've been told that they can do whatever they want, even if they've been told not to do that very thing, and that it'll get covered up because football is more important than anything else.[DOUBLEPOST=1363638066][/DOUBLEPOST]
One of the real problems is that many minors who are raped while drunk don't come forward because they blame themselves for getting drunk in the first place. They often don't even count it as a rape and worry that if they admit to drinking they'll get in worse trouble, and that people won't believe them when they say it wasn't consensual.
This is a very sad truth, and it goes even further. Many girls that age feel they can't even come forward if they weren't drunk, because no one would believe them. Especially when it comes to Football players. I wouldn't be surprised if, in high school, had I been the victim of robbery, had my wallet stolen by some jock, that they would have been the ones given the benefit of the doubt. I would have had to prove that I didn't willingly hand over my belongings to the star athlete. It would have been possible for me to prove that, since I was a goody two-shoes and well known at my church, but it wouldn't have been a foregone conclusion. Thankfully, I never had such a run-in, but I can't imagine what it's like for women to have to try to convince people of something far more serious, and far more damaging to her reputation. Having your wallet stolen doesn't carry the stigma of being a rape victim.


#109

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

In conclusion - fuck the patriarchy.


#110

Dave

Dave

I'm just thankful our football team sucked and nobody gave a shit if you were on the team or not.


#111

Null

Null

I'm completely disgusted by how so many in a position of authority tried to make this whole thing "just go away", as if a serious crime hadn't been committed. And even more disgusted by CNN's sorrow for the rapists.


#112

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Now that you've so easily resolved the rape problem in a way that completely eliminates all other surrounding factors, I hope you will consider solving the Middle East problem.
It is all the fault of white men


#113

MindDetective

MindDetective

Crap. I'm a white man! Argh! *cuts self*


#114

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm being facetious about the above, but what I said I do believe is one of the solutions


#115

Espy

Espy

Honestly I think Charlie is mostly right. The first and most important thing regarding sexual assault is for parents, teachers and authority figures to be teaching young men to not sexually assault girls. This goes hand in hand with destroying the "she was asking for it cuz of what she was wearing" myth that I am mortified to say was a HUGE part of the "purity" push in most churches and religious organizations I've been associated with or am familiar with. It's a very big topic right now in the post-evangelical world.

The second factor here is probably, like it or not Charlie, what Adam is saying. Adults supplying alcohol isn't the cause but it's a symptom of the bigger issue, which is parents not caring or bothering to be parents. There's world of difference from teaching young adults to be responsible with alcohol and giving them a keg and telling them to go nuts. I saw a LOT of that in Texas and in smaller towns up north here.

The third factor (and note how ALL of these involve parents and authority figures doing the right thing?) is for parents and authority figures to teach girls how to avoid dangerous situations. Thats not a bad thing. In no way does it mean it's the girls fault if she gets raped. If she chooses to stay at a party it's not a free card for thugs like this to do whatever they want. But teaching someone to think about their choices? Always good.


#116

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I'm on Charlie's side for once.

Men make choices. The availability of alcohol, the sight of a girl in revealing clothing--these things do not change the fact that we make choices. I'm disgusted by the whole "she was asking for it" thing not only because it's victim-blaming, but I don't think any man here wants it to be believed that when you see a girl in revealing clothes, your first thought is "RAPE HER MUST RAPE HER NOW". I'm tired of the female gender being beat down, but I'm also tired of my gender being viewed as a bunch of rutting neanderthals. So yes, it is absolutely important that young men are taught not to rape, not that to rape is the expectation and that it's up to women to avoid getting caught in it.

The coverage for this whole thing has been abysmal.



#117

GasBandit

GasBandit

The fact that stealing is illegal and morally wrong does not mean I accuse people who lock their doors and windows to be blaming the victims, or perpetuating "theft culture." Yes, we should be making it crystal clear that rape is unacceptable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be encouraging potential victims to be smart and safe - there are bad people out there, and even if they go to jail for ruining your life, your life is still ruined.

That, and as others said in the thread, we need to deal with our problem of celebrity worship - that celebrities, be they high school football stars or hollywood directors, are often let off the hook because of their celebrity status. How good a player is should not factor into what laws he is allowed to break.


#118

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

The fact that stealing is illegal and morally wrong does not mean I accuse people who lock their doors and windows to be blaming the victims, or perpetuating "theft culture." Yes, we should be making it crystal clear that rape is unacceptable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be encouraging potential victims to be smart and safe - there are bad people out there, and even if they go to jail for ruining your life, your life is still ruined.

That, and as others said in the thread, we need to deal with our problem of celebrity worship - that celebrities, be they high school football stars or hollywood directors, are often let off the hook because of their celebrity status. How good a player is should not factor into what laws he is allowed to break.
I don't disagree on any of that. I'm just tired of the lopsidedness of it.


#119

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Did anyone else see this and think "Wow. Charlie Brown really took a wrong turn somewhere in his life."?


#120

Espy

Espy

The fact that stealing is illegal and morally wrong does not mean I accuse people who lock their doors and windows to be blaming the victims, or perpetuating "theft culture." Yes, we should be making it crystal clear that rape is unacceptable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be encouraging potential victims to be smart and safe - there are bad people out there, and even if they go to jail for ruining your life, your life is still ruined.

That, and as others said in the thread, we need to deal with our problem of celebrity worship - that celebrities, be they high school football stars or hollywood directors, are often let off the hook because of their celebrity status. How good a player is should not factor into what laws he is allowed to break.
And I don't think most people who tell girls to be careful of who they are with/where they are/what kind of attention they may get from "those clothes" are always victim blaming, but there are many who are and participate in a culture that says, "Men can't control themselves around women, especially if those women wear sexy clothes".
Other than that I think we are saying the exact same thing. I love the part about celebrity worship. Thats a problem. We have to start throwing the book at celebrities who pull this stuff.



#122

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Fucking unbelievable.



#124

Krisken

Krisken

I almost posted that earlier, QP, but it felt way too creepy.


#125

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

It wouldn't be so creepy if it didn't hit the nail on the head.


#126

Krisken

Krisken

Well yeah.

I think The Onion has a gifted psychic on their payroll.


#127

Krisken

Krisken

Here we go. WWHRD.


#128

tegid

tegid

In conclusion - fuck the patriarchy.
Is that a rape joke? :awesome:[DOUBLEPOST=1363680143][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'm on Charlie's side for once.

Men make choices. The availability of alcohol, the sight of a girl in revealing clothing--these things do not change the fact that we make choices. I'm disgusted by the whole "she was asking for it" thing not only because it's victim-blaming, but I don't think any man here wants it to be believed that when you see a girl in revealing clothes, your first thought is "RAPE HER MUST RAPE HER NOW". I'm tired of the female gender being beat down, but I'm also tired of my gender being viewed as a bunch of rutting neanderthals. So yes, it is absolutely important that young men are taught not to rape, not that to rape is the expectation and that it's up to women to avoid getting caught in it.
This, so much this. Of course alcohol is a factor, but the ingrained thought that when they have less self control is alright to do this kind of thing is the real problem.


#129

Zappit

Zappit



#130

tegid

tegid

[...]
But we also need to question our ready dismissal of those that provided the environment where such a crime could be committed. I believe we can condemn their actions without in any way lessening or absolving the criminals of their responsibility for their act. They did not cause the crime to occur, but they certainly provided an unsupervised place, a time, and tools that made it easier to perpetrate.
I certainly agree. I think Espy's post is spot on, actually. What I meat to say is that in this case the bigger problem is that one, and the (ir)responsible adults surrounding this have responsibility for: 1-Bringing up the kids with these 'she had it coming' ideas, 2-Having the football players think that they can't be held accountable for anything short of killing someone or whatever, 3-Allowing them to drink and go wild, in this order.

That's how I see it. Also, it's not that I don't want to discuss your point, it's that besides not seeing it as a main part of the problem here* I agree with it, think that most people will agree with it (this is probably where I'm wrong) and find it less interesting in this instance, while QP's post got me in that not many people seem to complain about this "men are animals with no self-control" that is something I usually think about.

*What I mean is, in a car accident due to alcohol the problem can purely be irresponsible alcohol consumption, underestimating the effect of alcohol on your reflexes etc. In this case it's not as simple as that, there's an underlying problem.

But yeah, those people should be held accountable.


#131

Silent Bob

Silent Bob

The fact that stealing is illegal and morally wrong does not mean I accuse people who lock their doors and windows to be blaming the victims, or perpetuating "theft culture." Yes, we should be making it crystal clear that rape is unacceptable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be encouraging potential victims to be smart and safe - there are bad people out there, and even if they go to jail for ruining your life, your life is still ruined.

That, and as others said in the thread, we need to deal with our problem of celebrity worship - that celebrities, be they high school football stars or hollywood directors, are often let off the hook because of their celebrity status. How good a player is should not factor into what laws he is allowed to break.
most of the time the "bad people" are friends and family. Same goes for a lot of stuff.


#132

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Does that,mean that you, QP, and Charlie are against discussing how alcohol is also a problem?

I agree that we need to teach everyone, both boys and girls, men and women, that each individual are responsible for their own actions, regardless of outside factors.
.
See, this reads slightly to me like "girls and women are responsible for getting raped if they drink too much"

EDIT: by all means correct me


#133

Tress

Tress

I dunno. I think Steinman is simply saying that women should be careful and try to avoid dangerous situations. If I tell you not to walk alone at night in a dark alley to avoid being mugged, am I saying it's your fault if you get mugged? No. I'm just urging caution because it's an imperfect world. When people tell women not to drink something at a frat party that they didn't see get made in front of their own eyes, is that blaming women? No. It's just acknowledging there are bad people out there who might want to hurt them, and they should be careful.

Of course, Steinman is also saying men should be careful in the same ways, and that all people should take responsibility for their own actions/safety. I don't see any victim blaming in that.


#134

figmentPez

figmentPez

*What I mean is, in a car accident due to alcohol the problem can purely be irresponsible alcohol consumption, underestimating the effect of alcohol on your reflexes etc. In this case it's not as simple as that, there's an underlying problem.

But yeah, those people should be held accountable.
Back when I was in high school there was a fad, of sorts, for kids to try to reach 100mph on Kingwood Drive, they called it "The 100 Club". The highest speed limit on that road is 45mph, and that's pretty close to sane limits in some places. It's a heavily wooded drive with a lot of limited visibility and traffic lights that are visible just outside of stopping distance. There is no way to travel even 60 safely, let alone 100. The reckless endangerment involved in reaching 100mph on that road is very real, even in wee hours of the night when few people are on the road. Yet teenagers did it, or at least claimed to. I know kids who definitely got tickets for going over 80mph on the same road.

Imagine if some kid had done that after drinking built up their "courage". Alcohol is not the sole factor in making that situation dangerous. At 70+mph it's probably not even the primary factor. However, more kids are going to be stupid enough to try to reach 100mph when they're drunk and in a crowd goading them on. Alcohol makes an already bad situation worse when it's abused. If some kid had been in an accident speeding down the road after a kegger, then the "adults" who supplied the alcohol should be charged for their contribution to the issue, especially if they tried to cover it up, even if that type of driving would have been a crime without drunk driving being involved.

On a tangent: Wanting to punish the rape victim for underage consumption is like wanting to punish someone maimed in a drunk driving incident for being out after curfew. Yes, it's safer for teenagers to follow laws meant to protect them, but now is not the time. Hopefully the victim will eventually learn how to be responsible in consumption of alcohol, but this is not an example of a teachable moment. This is a chance for the rapists to learn what they've done was wrong, not a time to make things harder on a victim who has endured far worse than anything the boys will face.


#135

GasBandit

GasBandit

most of the time the "bad people" are friends and family. Same goes for a lot of stuff.
I can't speak for "most of the time," but I can definitely tell you there are still gangs of men in dark alleys even in today's day and age, as I know someone who did literally get dragged into an alley, despite certain people's assurances that such things don't happen any more. And there are always men trying to ply away women's inhibitions with alcohol and/or drugs. Men still ambush women in parking lots. The perpetrators should be punished of course, but it's still a good idea to teach situational awareness and caution to potential victims... in the hope that it may prevent them from becoming actual victims.


#136

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't have the stat in front of me, but the VAST majority of sexual assaults are from people the victim knows.


#137

GasBandit

GasBandit

I don't have the stat in front of me, but the VAST majority of sexual assaults are from people the victim knows.
According to RAINN, who I'm guessing probably has good figures on this sort of thing, it's 2/3rds. I suppose that could constitute "vast," but it doesn't cover methodry.

And 1/3rd of all of them is still a lot of assaults.

And even some of them that are strangers even prudent caution doesn't help. A couple years ago when I was visiting family in albuquerque, they were having problems with a man in a bad part of town who went to a 70 year old widow's house, kicked down her door, went in, and raped her.


#138

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Of course, Steinman is also saying men should be careful in the same ways, and that all people should take responsibility for their own actions/safety. I don't see any victim blaming in that.
The problem is that men don't have to be careful in the same ways. We get less blame, and to be honest, it is fucking scary out there to be a woman. I had no idea until it was outright explained to me, but the shit women have to worry about, that is upon them and is their responsibility to worry about and evade, is stuff I would never think about. My wife will come home sometimes and tell me about things that are said or done around her--never happens when I'm around. It's not because I'm big or tough or scary. I'm not. It's because I'm a man and that alone changes things.

Espy, I think everyone who covered it up or contributed to that situation should be brought to justice. But I think this perception that woman = thing to rape and the men = rapists if given the chance is HUGE and is in need of the first fix, because that's a societal perception. It's why women have to be hidden from sight in some countries and cultures, because a man loses control. I like to think we're more enlightened than that, but we're not. So it's my personal opinion that it needs to be tackled prominently. I'm of course not against getting rid of the ON/OFF light switch idea that America has toward alcohol, or tearing down celebrity/athlete worship. These are all things that need to change.


#139

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

Have none of you folks delved into the blogger and the Anonymous stuff that actually got this dragged back out from under the rug the town was trying to sweep this under?

This wasn't a case of a girl who goes to a party gets blitzed and should have known better, and proceeds to get a lot of heinous things done to her by boys and girls *audience participant or not*.

Grain of Salt, and whatnot, but this appears to be some cold, calculated shit perpetrated on this girl.

After being convinced, with some amount of coaxing - to attend the parties that night with the "Rape Crew" by Mark Cole's girlfriend Santoro, Jane Doe was picked up at a volleyball team party she was attending in the early evening of August 11th and transported in a vehicle with Richmond, Mays and Cole in it. Jane Doe was administered a "date rape" drug snuck into her drink almost immediately,*conjecture but . .* possibly while still in the vehicle enroute to the nights "festivities". In any case, she has no memories after being picked up. The first party of the night was at the home of Assistant Coach Rick Cameletti, where Michael Nodianos, Charlie Keenan, Cody Saltsman, and Anthony Craig were already engaged in heavy drinking and drug use. At this location Jane Doe was raped multiple times by Richmond and Mays and at least two other assailants from the "Rape Crew". At that point the "party" went on the move. They first stopped at another Assistant Coach's home, Coach Belerdine. Both Belerdine and his sister were present at this time. Jane Doe was again sexually assaulted at this party. They hit the road again with an unconscious Jane Doe in tow. While en route to Mark Cole's house, Jane was again raped and sodomized in the back seat of a vehicle - and this was video recorded by Mark Cole who was in the front seat. Her attackers in the car were again Mays and Richmond. Once they arrived at Mark Cole's house Jane Doe was carried to the basement where she was again raped multiple times by multiple attackers, one of which was Michael Nodianos. Also at the Cole residence, Jane Doe was orally raped by Trent Mays. Finally, having sated themselves and exhausted any further entertainment that Jane Doe could provide for these animals, she was unceremoniously dumped (still unconscious) onto the front lawn of the Cole residence - where at least one member of the "Rape Crew" proceeded to urinate on her. At some point in the early morning hours of August 12th, a semi-conscious Jane Doe was transported to her home in West Virginia.

This wasn't two boys behaving badly with onlookers. This was some serious fucked up shit, from the TOP down in this city / school / group of students.


#140

Krisken

Krisken

:eek::puke:


#141

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

I am amazed at the morals that the coaching staff had when I came through school. They literally wanted to keep us off of drugs and out of trouble with the law. Not hop us up and make excuses/cover up for anything we did.

I just don't get corrupting kids, to win games.


#142

Bowielee

Bowielee

I am amazed at the morals that the coaching staff had when I came through school. They literally wanted to keep us off of drugs and out of trouble with the law. Not hop us up and make excuses/cover up for anything we did.

I just don't get corrupting kids, to win games.
Depends on the culture of the area. In some places codes of silence like this are considered your civic duty, messed up as that may be.


#143

bhamv3

bhamv3

Sort of like a weirder version of the Bro Code.

Normal version: If your bro is in a fight with someone, you wade in and help him, no questions asked.
Fucked-up version: If your football team gang raped someone, you cover it up, no questions asked.

... yeah ok, it's nothing like the Bro Code.


#144

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

It's usually more of a case that if you don't go along with it, you'll face reprisals from powerful people in your community who ether aren't negatively effected by the athlete's actions or simply believe that the image of a winning team is more valuable than the justice of the people who are being victimized.


#145

Yoshimickster

Yoshimickster

Ah-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Th-THAT IS AWFUL! What is wrong with younglings? I remember seeing a show where the girls did this to a rape victim and thought "Oh come on, that wouldn't happen!" WELL NOW I KNOW IT DID HAPPEN! Fuckin' terrible this world.


#146

Yoshimickster

Yoshimickster

It's hard to argue that we don't have a "rape culture" when you see girls doing this kind of stuff.
I know, its just a horrible thing to accept about our world. Its like those Japanese videos games that I don't want to describe in detail because they are terrible.

And then just the fact that someone would treat a person who went through such torture so terribly, I want to believe in the good of humanity but people like this make me question it to many million degrees.


#147

Bowielee

Bowielee

I know, its just a horrible thing to accept about our world. Its like those Japanese videos games that I don't want to describe in detail because they are terrible.

And then just the fact that someone would treat a person who went through such torture so terribly, I want to believe in the good of humanity but people like this make me question it to many million degrees.
You don't have to accept it.


#148

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Ah-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Th-THAT IS AWFUL! What is wrong with younglings? I remember seeing a show where the girls did this to a rape victim and thought "Oh come on, that wouldn't happen!" WELL NOW I KNOW IT DID HAPPEN! Fuckin' terrible this world.
The reason people do this is somehow tied to when people make jokes about prisoners getting raped repeatedly.


#149

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Depends on the culture of the area. In some places codes of silence like this are considered your civic duty, messed up as that may be.
I hate those kinds of places. My wife grew up in places like that. Not too happy to see what they consider outsiders.



#151

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

That's what he gets for not playing football.


#152

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Really I don't see why Hacking is considered one of the worst crimes on the books. Especially, web page vandalism and hactivism.[DOUBLEPOST=1370899694][/DOUBLEPOST]If he stole my credit card number, he would have never been investigated.


#153

GasBandit

GasBandit

Really I don't see why Hacking is considered one of the worst crimes on the books. Especially, web page vandalism and hactivism.[DOUBLEPOST=1370899694][/DOUBLEPOST]If he stole my credit card number, he would have never been investigated.
That's because you're not a member of the ruling class. In DC, that's government workers. In Texas, it's high school football programs.


#154

Zappit

Zappit

What. The. Fuck. The guy who helped uncover this thing is facing more jail time than anyone else involved.

http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/steubenville-anonymous/

Our priorities are fucked up. Seriously fucked up.


#155

Dave

Dave

He deserves it. He questioned the police and is a whistle-blower. And you know how we treat whistle-blowers in this part of the world. He should have known better than to make the football program look bad.

Yes, this is all sarcasm.


#156

Gared

Gared

He deserves it. He questioned the police and is a whistle-blower. And you know how we treat whistle-blowers in this part of the world. He should have known better than to make the football program look bad.

Yes, this is all sarcasm.
Exactly. Plus, in order to get the message out there, he engaged with Anonymous. That makes him a hacker and a terrorist. He deserves no less than to be locked in Guantanamo Bay for the rest of his life.

Yes, this is all sarcasm too.


#157

Dave

Dave

He posted child pornography to a website he had no legal right to hack.

There are ways to blow the whistle, and ways not to blow the whistle.

He chose the wrong way to do it.
What the what?!? Child pornography? Is that what they are calling the video of the young girl? Dude, that's thin as shit. Had he not done this, the video in question would have been disappeared, just as all the others mysteriously did. And since the cops were actively trying to suppress the case, including evidence, what else was he supposed to do.

This is the biggest problem with prosecuting whistle-blowers. People charge them because they do things that are outside the law, yet had they tried to use legal channels nothing would have been done! He had nowhere to turn. This is bullshit all around.


#158

D

Dubyamn

So you are saying that if he passed the video on to tv stations around the state and nation, and activist groups, etc, then nothing would have happened?

He put it on their website to make a big splash. He most certainly had other options that weren't illegal.
Girl gets raped in flyover country and nobody there gives a crap? Yeah I'm sure that the news networks were going to fall over themselves to break that story. I'm sure that the same networks that mourned how the two rapists lives were over would have loved to pressure the local government to take that case to court.

This prosecution is a ludicrous as the prosecution of Aaron Swartz. And Raiding his home is just stupid.


#159

Shakey

Shakey

Part of the problem is a different anonymous person had already admitted to doing the hacking well before they conducted this raid. The only thing he did was organize some protests. Also there hasn't been any talk of going after the people trying to cover this up for the kids. It all seemed to focus on the people who uncovered it. So, yes, it seems like priorities are a bit skewed.

There still hasn't been any charged filed, and there may not be. Apparently we'll find out in a few weeks when the grand jury reconvenes.

I guess I don't have any problems with charging someone for hacking in this case. As long as it's the right person, and the punishment is in line with the damages done.


#160

D

Dubyamn

So as long as a whistleblower says they had to break a law in order to stop the criminal activity they are reporting, then they should get off without being prosecuted?

What laws should a whistleblower still have to follow? Should they be allowed to break traffic laws, in order to tell their story? Commit robbery? If necessary to gather evidence, should they be allowed to use a handgun to threaten a board member to get information? Will they be acquitted of murder if they can show that the death of someone helped them to blow the whistle and expose corruption?

The law does not permit whistleblowers to break the law. It has a very limited set of protections that prevent retaliation (such as firing and lawsuits) on whistleblowers from the organizations they reported, but it DOES NOT permit the whistleblower to conduct criminal activity.

If you think that the ONLY way that this particular corruption could have been released is using CLEARLY ILLEGAL means, then I can't change your opinion. It just seems extraordinarily narrow minded. Out of all the methods, only illegal methods would have worked? Give me a break.

Besides which, this is not "whistleblowing" - though that's a convenient term people like using these days. There's not much point in debating definitions, though. Legally this isn't whistleblowing, and allowing someone to conduct criminal activity and break the law while reporting that someone else broke the law is pretty silly.
I say you take it on a case by case basis. In this case the guy hacked a website harming nobody to bring two boys who raped a girl to justice.

Do I think his actions were justified? Beyond all doubt he was and anybody who believes otherwise is an idiot.

Now do I believe that Bradley Manning was justified in his release of information. Absolutely. We had every right to see what our troops were doing in our name. But I can see how people might not think that he was justified in releasing the Diplomatic cables.

Now do I believe that the Hypothetical whistle blower you desribe was justified in gunning down a school bus full of children because that was literally the only possible way he could expose the City Coucil cafeteria was charging premium prices for sub premium chicken? No I don't believe this hypothetical man was justified in his actions.

And I really don't see any reason outside of a fallacious slippery slope argument where exactly your problem lies with making a call on this case.


#161

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

I think a lot of it has to do with the context of the action. If I see a guy raping a girl out on the school track field, and I run at him with a gun out of my car to save her, can I be arrested for brandishing a weapon in an illegal area? Should the context of why I did it not matter at all?

From what I understand, he didn't hack the video for a huge cash payout or anything, he gave it to Anonymous to spread on social media so the town couldn't cover it up. Is that really deserving of 10 years in jail?


#162

Necronic

Necronic

I'm usually not either, but this situation was inexcusably poorly handled across the board by officials. There's simply no denying that.

Anyways, you want to know the part that really confuses me about this? The FBI was involved in the raid. How does a lcoal jurisdiction pressure the FBI to do something like this. I was always under the impression that the FBI doesn't take orders from some rural sheriff or PTA or football team or whatever.


#163

Necronic

Necronic

The only thing he did was organize some protests.
You should read this article, its a much better source (really the last one shouldn't even be called a source)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-raid-kyanonymous-steubenville_n_3403000.html

its worth a read, it definitely looks like an over-reach but the dude isn't exactly innocent either.


#164

Covar

Covar

I'm usually not either, but this situation was inexcusably poorly handled across the board by officials. There's simply no denying that.

Anyways, you want to know the part that really confuses me about this? The FBI was involved in the raid. How does a lcoal jurisdiction pressure the FBI to do something like this. I was always under the impression that the FBI doesn't take orders from some rural sheriff or PTA or football team or whatever.
The X-Files have taught me that the FBI is requested by local authorities to assist when the situation is bigger than the available resources to handle it. Usually this involves some kind of genetic mutant and/or possible extra-terrestrial lifeforms.


#165

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

...or a script kiddie


#166

Covar

Covar

I don't recall, although there was an artificial intelligence program that gained what amounted to sentience and committed several murders in an attempt to preserve its existence. Mostly aliens though.


#167

Zappit

Zappit

These people just don't get it. A local federal prosecutor has launched a program designed to teach athletes about the dangers of mixing alcohol and social media, essentially telling them to avoid recording and posting shit. Not so much personal responsibility, or even that rape is bad, but how not to get caught.

http://www.dailymail.com/News/statenews/201308080115


#168

Tress

Tress

The next time someone asks me what "rape culture" is, or argues it doesn't exist, I am going to point this shit out.


#169

Espy

Espy

I don't think anyone can argue against it at this point. It's so documented its not even funny.


#170

GasBandit

GasBandit

The next time someone asks me what "rape culture" is, or argues it doesn't exist, I am going to point this shit out.
I don't think it's so much rape culture as "golden child/celebrities/sports figures can do whatever they want" culture. I mean, after all, they probably would have done the same no matter what the crime was. There have been plenty of instances of high school, collegiate and even professional athletes trying (and sometimes succeeding) to duck the rap for everything from robbery to murder. I even remember posting a story about how a high school football program was trying to get the date of one of their players' murder trial moved so it wouldn't impact his ability to play that season.


#171

bhamv3

bhamv3

I don't think it's so much rape culture as "golden child/celebrities/sports figures can do whatever they want" culture. I mean, after all, they probably would have done the same no matter what the crime was. There have been plenty of instances of high school, collegiate and even professional athletes trying (and sometimes succeeding) to duck the rap for everything from robbery to murder.
This is true. Imagine if it'd been for something like underage drinking, or doing lines of coke at a party, or showing off stuff they'd shoplifted from the local Wal-Mart. The same thing would probably still happen.


#172

blotsfan

blotsfan

You know, this past year Mizzou's basketball team lost our second best player because he was accused of rape twice. Even though the school knew that he wasn't going to face any charges, he was still kicked off the team and the general consensus among fans was that it was the right call. I just don't get how people can freak out this much when it comes to players when there is no doubt that a rape happened.


#173

Espy

Espy

"Rape culture"is about a society in which rape and sexual violence are linked to attitudes within the culture. So yes, this example is a perfect representation of something that is disturbingly prevalent in our society. It's about a society "in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape". It's one where the victims are blamed for the rape. The military is 20x worse than our society at large, but no doubt about it, our culture has fostered these kinds of things for a looooooong time.


#174

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

"Rape culture"is about a society in which rape and sexual violence are linked to attitudes within the culture. So yes, this example is a perfect representation of something that is disturbingly prevalent in our society. It's about a society "in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape". It's one where the victims are blamed for the rape. The military is 20x worse than our society at large, but no doubt about it, our culture has fostered these kinds of things for a looooooong time.
When someone is robbed, they are robbed, everyone acknowledges their goods were stolen. It's not like. "So... you left that computer in your room, right on a desk? You were kind of asking for it with that TV in the living room mounted right on the wall...."


#175

Espy

Espy

Well, to be fair, people do say things like that about people who are robbed, things like "Oh you shouldn't have been in that part of town" or "You shouldn't have left your blinds open so the thief could see your computer", etc.

The problem is, and here's where I think things get tricky, is that it's one thing to talk to someone about common sense and say, "Hey, here's some decent tips to prevent *insert crime*" and another to tell a woman who has just been violently raped that she was asking for it.

THAT'S rape culture and it's sick and it's wrong. Wrong on so many levels. Because while you can say, here's some common sense tips about avoiding bad situations RAPE HAPPENS TO ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE. It doesn't matter what they were wearing. It doesn't matter if they are skinny or fat. It doesn't matter if they had on a short skirt. It doesn't matter and people who try to make it the victims fault are only encouraging a system that tells rapists that they didn't really do anything wrong.


#176

GasBandit

GasBandit

When someone is robbed, they are robbed, everyone acknowledges their goods were stolen. It's not like. "So... you left that computer in your room, right on a desk? You were kind of asking for it with that TV in the living room mounted right on the wall...."
Except they totally do. "Your neighbors saw you carrying in that 50 inch plasma, what did you think was going to happen? Do you know what part of town you live in?"
Blaming the victim isn't exclusive to rape. And I can guarantee you the Steubenville community would have tried to shield their players no matter what they had done. It just so happened to be rape. And yes, the fact that they're giving their athletes pointers on not getting caught instead of not doing bad things in the first place further indicates the unhealthy obsession/idolization of athletes/celebrities.


#177

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

These inhuman scum and anyone that covered it up or watched and didn't report should be locked up for the rest of their ride on this planet. It sounds like a lot of kids, but I don't want them in my society.

I hate this story. I hope a meteor hits that town. I want some Biblical wraith jacking that place up. Sink hole to the Earth's core. Something.


#178

Dave

Dave

These inhuman scum and anyone that covered it up or watched and didn't report should be locked up for the rest of their ride on this planet. It sounds like a lot of kids, but I don't want them in my society.

I hate this story. I hope a meteor hits that town. I want some Biblical wraith jacking that place up. Sink hole to the Earth's core. Something.
If this happens I will start believing in God. I could get behind this.


#179

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

EDITED POST:

Stubenville needs to be wiped off the planet.

There.


#180

Covar

Covar

You might want to clean up your post a bit. You're going from arguing against something Gas isn't claiming to being that guy who can't get past HS, ranting about jocks.


#181

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I was referring to rape culture in general, not just this particular case.


#182

GasBandit

GasBandit

Heh, man, I feel like I missed an epic post.


#183

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

Heh, man, I feel like I missed an epic post.
Not really. I was just trying to agree that jocks do get differential treatment (in some places). I was also trying to give a rebuttal to Charlie's post, but it wasn't very well constructed. I'm not interested in debating this topic anyway. There's nothing to debate.


#184

Espy

Espy

Is telling people how to decrease their chance of victimization really an act of promoting those crimes and giving those criminals an excuse for their behavior?
No, which is what I said in my post above. That's called common sense. However when all the focus is on telling women how to avoid rape but never on telling men to stop raping thats where the idea of "rape culture" comes in to play.

Here's a great example from the military: Until very, very recently the majority of their focus on stopping rape was training for women to avoid rape. Because 'guys are gonna be guys, just rapin' it up!' was basically the idea. Theres nothing wrong with telling someone how to avoid problems, but we as a society tend to put the majority of the problem on the woman, rather than on the rapist, which is pretty unique to that particular crime. It happens with other crimes but not as often.

Also, in regards to who does and doesn't condone rape: If someone says, "I don't condone rape, BUT I mean, just look at how that girl was dressed/flirted/drank, she was totally asking to be raped" then yes, you are condoning rape. Sorry.


#185

Necronic

Necronic

Not really. I was just trying to agree that jocks do get differential treatment (in some places). I was also trying to give a rebuttal to Charlie's post, but it wasn't very well constructed. I'm not interested in debating this topic anyway. There's nothing to debate.
I don't think its fair to apply this to "jocks".

Let me tell you a story. There are three boys. One is the captain of the football team (which went to state). The second is the son of the mayor. And the third is an heir to a fortune who is a generous benefactor to the school. One day, all three of them comitted a crime together. A teacher believes that some of them did it, but isn't sure which one. Each of the boys and their parents/boosters makes pleas to the teacher about why the child wasn't responsible. Which ones walk away?

The point is that power resides where one thinks it resides.

Edit: ok yeah you did say "in some places", but I've been without Game of Thrones for too long.


#186

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

I don't think its fair to apply this to "jocks".

Let me tell you a story. There are three boys. One is the captain of the football team (which went to state). The second is the son of the mayor. And the third is an heir to a fortune who is a generous benefactor to the school. One day, all three of them comitted a crime together. A teacher believes that some of them did it, but isn't sure which one. Each of the boys and their parents/boosters makes pleas to the teacher about why the child wasn't responsible. Which ones walk away?

The point is that power resides where one thinks it resides.

Edit: ok yeah you did say "in some places", but I've been without Game of Thrones for too long.
I agree that I should not paint with such a broad brush, and it differs from sport-to-sport. The soccer and track folks don't get the same level of treatment as the big money football and basketball kids. And, I agree it's not just jocks. Despotism Nepotism is alive and well.


#187

MindDetective

MindDetective

You mean nepotism?


#188

Frank

Frank

I don't think its fair to apply this to "jocks".

Let me tell you a story. There are three boys. One is the captain of the football team (which went to state). The second is the son of the mayor. And the third is an heir to a fortune who is a generous benefactor to the school. One day, all three of them comitted a crime together. A teacher believes that some of them did it, but isn't sure which one. Each of the boys and their parents/boosters makes pleas to the teacher about why the child wasn't responsible. Which ones walk away?

The point is that power resides where one thinks it resides.

Edit: ok yeah you did say "in some places", but I've been without Game of Thrones for too long.
None of them are punished. That's how it currently works.


#189

Espy

Espy

None of them are punished. That's how it currently works.
Unless there's a girl involved that they raped. She will probably be shunned and shamed.


#190

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Unless there's a girl involved that they raped. She will probably be shunned and shamed.
Well, clearly she's a slut and a troublemaker, just trying to ruin the lives of these up and coming stars. How dare she.


#191

D

Dubyamn

No, which is what I said in my post above. That's called common sense. However when all the focus is on telling women how to avoid rape but never on telling men to stop raping thats where the idea of "rape culture" comes in to play.

Here's a great example from the military: Until very, very recently the majority of their focus on stopping rape was training for women to avoid rape. Because 'guys are gonna be guys, just rapin' it up!' was basically the idea. Theres nothing wrong with telling someone how to avoid problems, but we as a society tend to put the majority of the problem on the woman, rather than on the rapist, which is pretty unique to that particular crime. It happens with other crimes but not as often.

Also, in regards to who does and doesn't condone rape: If someone says, "I don't condone rape, BUT I mean, just look at how that girl was dressed/flirted/drank, she was totally asking to be raped" then yes, you are condoning rape. Sorry.
Was trying to put my ideas together to respond when I saw this post. You put it far better than I could and with a picture perfect example.


#192

Necronic

Necronic

What if the girl was the mayor's daughter/heiress?


#193

Espy

Espy

What if the girl was the mayor's daughter/heiress?
What a twist!!!


#194

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

You mean nepotism?
Yep! That was the -ism I was looking for. Despot, Nepot, Pol Pot - they're all bad. :p


#195

GasBandit

GasBandit

Yep! That was the -ism I was looking for. Despot, Nepot, Pol Pot - they're all bad. :p
Good thing you didn't say Crock Pot, the NSA might have kicked in your door.

Hang on, somebody's at the door, BRB.


#196

figmentPez

figmentPez

Good thing you didn't say Crock Pot, the NSA might have kicked in your door.

Hang on, somebody's at the door, BRB.
A crock pot isn't a pressure cooker. Here let me go look up some product comparisons so you can see why they'r

I have decided to go see the local sports team play. How about that team? GO LOCAL SPORTS TEAM!


#197

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

Maybe a Crack Pot? :D


#198

T

The_Khan

what's wrong with crock pot? I use one daily?


#199

Dave

Dave

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/justice/ohio-steubenville-rape-case/index.html

School superintendent, 2 teachers, and an assistant coach has been indicted.

I'd like to see more happen to the cops who blocked the investigation and the rapists themselves, who got off very, very light.

In fact, if the superintendent is convicted, he'll likely do more time in jail than the two rapists. Combined.


#200

Zappit

Zappit

'Bout time.


#201

Dave

Dave



#202

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

at least the bastard will have to register as a sex offender. But his kidnapping, drugging and rape only got him a few months in jail is ridiculous.


#203

Dave

Dave

Given your obvious disagreement with the result, what do you think should have occurred to this young man for you to believe that justice was satisfied?
If you are convicted of a violent physical assault against another person, your punishment should be worse than someone who does drugs or drinks. Like, you know, be allowed to play on a school's football team. And what do *I* think would have happened that would make justice served? How about actual jail time that is more than the guy who broke the story and blew the whistle? This little fucker raped a girl multiple times and is out less than a year later? Bullshit.


#204

Necronic

Necronic

If that team a shred of decency they would have thrown him off the team. Of course they also should have expelled him. That said he should still be in jail....


#205

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

If that team a shred of decency they would have thrown him off the team. Of course they also should have expelled him. That said he should still be in jail....
None of that matters, they've got games to win!


#206

Null

Null

None of that matters, they've got games to win!
Yeah, he needs to earn a football scholarship so he can go to college and rape college girls!


#207

blotsfan

blotsfan

Steinman, that's disgusting. 16 year olds know damn well that rape is bad. Don't try to make some stupid point about society.


#208

figmentPez

figmentPez

A sixteen year old knows that stabbing or shooting is bad. Yet we treat them differently than a 26 year old who stabs or shoots someone else.
What happened here is not on par with a single knife stab or a gun shot. This was hours of violation. If a 16 year old tied someone up and cut and stabbed them many times over an entire evening, would you be arguing that they didn't understand what they were doing was wrong? Would you argue that someone who committed such torture could be ignorant of the amount of trauma that they were causing?


#209

Dei

Dei

A 16 year old who did that would be tried as an adult.


#210

Bowielee

Bowielee

A 16 year old who did that would be tried as an adult.
Exactly.


#211

Necronic

Necronic

Why am I mad about it?

The community tried to cover it up. They tried to blame the girl. Media outlets acted like the men were victims just as much as the woman. This matters because it creates a context where justice has the potential to be grossly mishandled, and one where Justice has to be served in spite of the community. Justice matters, it is the only thing the girl can receive now. And they got a slap on the wrist, literally the minimum sentence. Some adults were charged and maybe one of them will go to jail. Every sign looks to the justice system following the bias being put out by the community. Justice was mishandled here.

They should not have received minimum sentences for a crime this egregious.

The adults that worked to cover this up should have been charged.

And now? The community is welcoming the boys back with open arms and putting them right back on the football team. That is...its just disgusting. What is wrong with these people?

How does this NOT make you angry?


#212

Dave

Dave

He's not registered for life, he's registered for 20 years.

As to did he know what he was doing? Uh...yeah! I mean, people don't try to cover shit up like removing evidence or coercing witnesses unless they know they did wrong.

Why the outrage? Because after these fucking thugs did this did they show any remorse? Or did they bully and threaten the girl who was raped - repeatedly? Want to take some time to guess?

They raped a girl multiple times, tried to cover it up, lied, committed even more crimes while doing that. And what is their punishment? A slap on the fucking wrist and then it's all over. Poor Johnny, whose life might have been messed up! Meanwhile, the guy who did the whistleblowing is going to get 5-10 years and that's not even talking about the poor girl whose life was ruined not just by the assault but by the actions of people who damned well should have known better like the principal of the school, the sheriff, and the coach. All of these "responsible" adults put the fucking football team above the health and welfare of a rape victim.

You wonder why this upsets people? I wonder why it doesn't for you.


#213

Dave

Dave

Holy fucking shit.


#214

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I agree.



So, in essence, you are arguing that there's no possible way a 16 year old could not understand the magnitude of the crime he was committing. You assert that a 16 year old is mentally and socially fully formed and understands the ramifications of their the decision to rape another human over a period of several hours.

I question the validity of your beliefs. I'd like to see research that shows that every human being of an arbitrary age and up is fully cognizant of the effects of their actions, and thus eligible for the most severe punishments for the crime.

Please prove your point.
Damn it Charlie, why do you have to always get people riled up... Wait... Steinman? Huh...


#215

Tress

Tress

*reads latest posts in this thread*


#216

Necronic

Necronic

So you are against trying any child as an adult? Ok, that's a fair stance. This is probably not the case I would be making that stance on, I would probably look towards one of the thousands of young teens that has been sent to jail for 5+ years for a small drugs charge, but hey, if this specific case is the one that made you see the light, then so be it. Now stick by that. If you come by next week talking about how that 15 year old deserves to be tried as an adult for stealing a car, understand what that means.


#217

Necronic

Necronic

Do you think that minors should ever be tried as adults?

And even disregarding that, do you think that a minimum sentence was acceptable?

There are no emotions in these questions.[DOUBLEPOST=1407866725,1407866684][/DOUBLEPOST]whoops missed your edit


#218

Necronic

Necronic

Ok so if you're not against that, then what about this case makes you think that it's ok not to try them as adults? Why is this one wrong and the thousands of others right?[DOUBLEPOST=1407866967,1407866777][/DOUBLEPOST]Dude don't "handle" us. I'm not crying. You have a weird view, you aren't the only one and it's probably not the worst. I argued for the invasion of Syria. Someone (can't remember) argued for cop baiting at Occupy Wall Street. I think Gasbandit is basically ok with completely eliminating welfare and possibly encourages a post-apocalyptic "purge" scenario to deal with the poor.

and then there's Charlie.....

Your view is one of the many iconoclasts out here. Some people may be offended by it, but I'm not. I just don't understand it.


#219

Dave

Dave

I'm for corporal punishment in schools and bringing back the draft.

We all have weird beliefs. I think this one for you is as wacky as you think mine are.


#220

GasBandit

GasBandit

He should not be out of jail yet.

We can debate exactly how long he SHOULD be in jail (in my opinion it should have been 10 years at the very least, perhaps 20).

However, I think we can all agree that football talent should not be a mitigating circumstance for lessening of a sentence, and 1 year is far to brief, especially given the egregiously heinous nature of the act committed.

That he is back on the football team is also illustration that the Steubenville community still prizes football above justice.[DOUBLEPOST=1407867283,1407867145][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'm for corporal punishment in schools and bringing back the draft.

We all have weird beliefs.
Actually I could get behind both of those. In fact, I'll go you one further. Instead of a draft, just have 2 years compulsory military service from 18-20.


#221

Dave

Dave

:minionshout:

I agree with Gas.

:minionshout:

DEE-dooo-DEE-dooo-DEE-dooo


#222

GasBandit

GasBandit

:minionshout:

I agree with Gas.

:minionshout:

DEE-dooo-DEE-dooo-DEE-dooo
You wanna know the REALLY scary thing?

You agree with Robert Heinlein's political vision of proper human society in Starship Troopers (the book).

Just one more step closer to fantasizing about having sex with twin teenaged female genetic clones of yourself, man!


#223

Necronic

Necronic

Heinlein....man. That guy. So much of his stuff is just....its good. But its confusing. He is SO hard to box in. Sometimes I'm so sure I should be offended, like in Farnham's Freehold. I'm pretty sure that should have offended me. A lot.


#224

Bowielee

Bowielee

Sex crime sentences are horribly minor compared to the severity of the crimes. I can attest, albeit anecdotally, that child molesters I have seen in the system have served six month sentences.


#225

Necronic

Necronic

Hah, wow I just checked out the wiki for that book and one review had this line to describe it:

"an anti-racist novel only a Klansman could love"


#226

GasBandit

GasBandit

Heinlein....man. That guy. So much of his stuff is just....its good. But its confusing. He is SO hard to box in. Sometimes I'm so sure I should be offended, like in Farnham's Freehold. I'm pretty sure that should have offended me. A lot.
Having discussed the matter at length with my father, who is an avid Heinlein fan, the consensus is that basically Heinlein got nastier as he got older. Starship Troopers in 1959 had some though provoking unconventional ideas about the nature of man, politics, and society. Stranger in a Strange Land in 61 pushed the envelope in areas about sex, love, death, and cannibalism. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress in 64 was basically about a war for libertarian independence (no mystery it's one of my favorites).. by 1973, Time Enough For Love had an Author Expy (as mentioned before) having twin female teenaged clones of himself demand that he get them both pregnant (and he sighing and acquiescing), and by 82 he's winning a Hugo award for Friday, which starts off with a graphic chapter-long "fuck your rapist into submission" scene I couldn't even get through.


#227

Cajungal

Cajungal

One good point that steinman made is that not all boys are necessarily taught how to treat women and are brought up with a sense of entitlement about what women "owe" them. Do I think that means they didn't realize that they were doing something wrong? Absolutely not. I think that more often it's a case of knowing it's wrong but not caring. And he should have finished his full sentence.

And I absolutely believe that, like @GasBandit said, being attached to a popular team sport contributed to his release. It's a shame our prison system is so disappointing. What he should be doing with his free time is talking to a therapist or something, because he made some seriously fucked up decisions. He shouldn't be allowed to take part in clubs or sports until some kind of professional signs off on him going through rigorous training and rehabilitation.

Maybe (ok definitely) that's really idealistic to think that it would help, but at least if he doesn't finish out the sentence he deserves, we're making an effort to educate and mold him into someone who deserves to be outside.


#228

Necronic

Necronic

Maybe (ok definitely) that's really idealistic to think that it would help, but at least if he doesn't finish out the sentence he deserves, we're making an effort to educate and mold him into someone who deserves to be outside.
Seems to me we're doing a real good job of molding him into the next Steelers QB.


#229

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

I personally think all of the people in the town that had attempted to cover it up should have been charged with accessory to rape. But none of that matters, what's important is football.


#230

Necronic

Necronic

I wish I could say that it was just football, but I think we all have our blind spots. I will admit that I kind of wanted to give R Kelly a pass.

And a toot toot. And a beep beep.


#231

GasBandit

GasBandit

I wish I could say that it was just football, but I think we all have our blind spots. I will admit that I kind of wanted to give R Kelly a pass.

And a toot toot. And a beep beep.
Well, Riley Freeman did have a point.

"I saw that girl, she ain't 'little.' At what point does personal responsibility become a factor? If I try to pee on you, would you stand there, or move out the way? All I'm sayin' is I see piss comin', I move. She saw piss comin', she stayed."

It's not like R Kelly got her drunk/held her down to pee on her.


#232

Necronic

Necronic

Oh sorry I miswrote that. I meant I really wanted to give R Kelly a piss.

My bad.


#233

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

You know, no one ever sat me down as a kid and told me that kidnapping, drugging, and raping a girl was wrong. Not one person said it. Yet somehow, I knew these things were wrong, because you don't do that shit to a person.


#234

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

I wish I could say that it was just football, but I think we all have our blind spots. I will admit that I kind of wanted to give R Kelly a pass.

And a toot toot. And a beep beep.


#235

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

holy fucking shit I wish I had followed my instinct to not read the updates to this thread


#236

Dave

Dave

There was a news thing that I read about today that fits right along with this discussion.

Dallas Cowboy's cornerback, Orlando Scandrick, has been suspended for 4 games for testing positive for the drug "Molly" (ecstasy), which is not performance enhancing.

4 games.

But Ray Rice gets only 2 for beating the shit out of his girlfriend.

The lesson? Take Molly and get a 4 game suspension. Beat the shit out of Molly and you only get 2.

I'm not one that believes in the "patriarchy" like most feminists do, but I can't understand how in instances like this that drugs, alcohol, etc. are held in more contempt than the physical or sexual abuse of women.


#237

GasBandit

GasBandit

Two words: Chris Brown.


#238

Bubble181

Bubble181

There was a news thing that I read about today that fits right along with this discussion.

Dallas Cowboy's cornerback, Orlando Scandrick, has been suspended for 4 games for testing positive for the drug "Molly" (ecstasy), which is not performance enhancing.

4 games.

But Ray Rice gets only 2 for beating the shit out of his girlfriend.

The lesson? Take Molly and get a 4 game suspension. Beat the shit out of Molly and you only get 2.

I'm not one that believes in the "patriarchy" like most feminists do, but I can't understand how in instances like this that drugs, alcohol, etc. are held in more contempt than the physical or sexual abuse of women.
And if the average 18 year old was caught with ecstasy, they'd go to jail in many states. Myeah.

Up to a point, people like to give as '"justification" that, when you're talking about these battle-replacement-sports (football, soccer, rugby, basketball - contrast to badminton, ice skating, gymnastics), you'll "always" get people who're hopped up on testosterone, with lots of aggression and so forth. Point being they're supposed to release that energy in the game, not off the field. Look at Suarez: I can understand a player getting off relatively "easy" the first time they bite an opponent - certainly when they're young and inexperienced. The third time he bites an opponent, at the top of a career with plenty of high-pressure experience? That's assault, and the guy should be in prison for 3 months or so.

All anger management stuff with top sports players goes out the window - up to and including abusing women. I can understand a -certain- amount of leniency for people first learning to cope with stuff. However, by the time you're up to beating/raping women, smashing stuff up, or, like a soccer player 'round here a while ago, ramming a house with your Ferrari just for kicks (and because you're angry at the person inside), there's some lines you've crossed - and your status definitely shouldn't shield you from the ill effects of your actions.

If we'll "tolerate" top sports players to behave like that, we're better off just treating them like the animals they're becoming. Mind you, real life blood bowl with athletes hopped up on every conceivable drug would be fun too - but keep the "athletes" locked up in cages then. And no, I'm not saying we should do that, it's inhumane, but letting them run around in normal society isn't always the best choice either.


#239

blotsfan

blotsfan

It's so bizzare that after all the instances of Goodell being tough on criminals, that when there is video evidence is the time he decides to loosen up.


#240

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm not one that believes in the "patriarchy" like most feminists do, but I can't understand how in instances like this that drugs, alcohol, etc. are held in more contempt than the physical or sexual abuse of women.
Actually true feminism would take issue that you think it's "worse" to abuse women


#241

Eriol

Eriol

Dare I even ask?
Just read this: No True Scotsman

You'll save time in whatever argument that will emerge.


#242

Dave

Dave

Actually true feminism would take issue that you think it's "worse" to abuse women
As in worse to beat/abuse/rape women than to do drugs? I'm afraid I don't get it. It is a worse crime to do ANYONE bodily harm as opposed to drugs or alcohol - as long as the drugs/alcohol are simply taken and not used in a way to harm others.


#243

Telephius

Telephius

Charlie means that in feminism, doing harm to a woman is on equal severity footing as doing harm to a man.


#244

CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

Question. So in the same vain, if a woman starts to hit a man is it reasonable for the man to defend himself in whatever way necessary to stop the assault?


#245

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Question. So in the same vain, if a woman starts to hit a man is it reasonable for the man to defend himself in whatever way necessary to stop the assault?
In an equal society, absolutely. Everyone has a right to defend themselves.

The problem is there is that the man will almost always be vilified for it, even if there was a history of abuse from the woman.


#246

blotsfan

blotsfan

I disagree. I don't think people have a problem with defending yourself when necessary. It's just that in the case of Rice, he's a huge football player. He could've defended himself just fine without knocking her out.


#247

figmentPez

figmentPez

Charlie means that in feminism, doing harm to a woman is on equal severity footing as doing harm to a man.
And nowhere did @Dave in any way imply that violence against women is worse than violence against men. Charlie is just being an ass by insisting on gender neutral language when any rational person should realize it's not only unnecessary, it's a damn ridiculous bit of semantic acrobatics when talking about a specific instance.


#248

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

Feminism, in theory, would have a society where men are equal to women.

However, in reality, men have huge advantages and privilege. One of which is height and strength in most cases that makes retaliation by men against women disproportional (disproportionate? fuck).


#249

Bowielee

Bowielee

Charlie means that in feminism, doing harm to a woman is on equal severity footing as doing harm to a man.
This is basically the crux of it from a feminist perspective. Implying that it's worse to hit a woman than it is a man implies that women are inherently less capable of taking care of themselves and therefor need more protection.

That's the theory anyway.


#250

Dave

Dave

Feminism, in theory, would have a society where men are equal to women.

However, in reality, men have huge advantages and privilege. One of which is height and strength in most cases that makes retaliation by men against women disproportional (disproportionate? fuck).
I'm still confused as to what part of my statement would offend feminists.


#251

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

I'm still confused as to what part of my statement would offend feminists.
The Charlie brand of feminist?

"Dave." ;)


#252

Null

Null

I'm still confused as to what part of my statement would offend feminists.
That's because you don't operate by 'Charlie Logic'. What he's saying is that, since you imply that a large professional athlete beating a woman is an especially heinous crime compared to recreational drug use, you're saying that women are defenseless/helpless, which is offensive to feminists.

Oddly, I think most feminists would agree that a man beating the stuffing out of a woman is a bad thing.


#253

Dave

Dave

I want to hear Charlie tell me. Everything else is conjecture.


#254

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

I want to hear Charlie tell me. Everything else is conjecture.
The ball is round, the game lasts 90 minutes. Everything else is just theory. - Sepp Herberger, German National Team coach


#255

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I dunno, I kind of screwed that up? I just assumed you thought it was worse to abuse women since you only mentioned it specifically.


#256

Dave

Dave

I dunno, I kind of screwed that up? I just assumed you thought it was worse to abuse women since you only mentioned it specifically.
Fair enough. I was actually saying that it was worse to beat a woman than it was to do drugs/alcohol, and confused/concerned that these situations are exactly backwards from that.


#257

Necronic

Necronic

I dunno about that. People who abuse drugs could do something really messed up, like beat a wom....oh ok I get it now.


#258

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Not that I necessarily condone the action, but I'm honestly surprised someone in that town hasn't tried dealing out some vigilante "justice" on these guys.


#259

Dave

Dave

Not that I necessarily condone the action, but I'm honestly surprised someone in that town hasn't tried dealing out some vigilante "justice" on these guys.
Are you kidding? everyone is sticking up for the guys!


#260

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Are you kidding? everyone is sticking up for the guys!
Surely not every single person in the town feels that way, though. That's my point. Seems like the vast majority, though, which makes the whole debacle all the worse.


#261

tegid

tegid

Surely not every single person in the town feels that way, though. That's my point. Seems like the vast majority, though, which makes the whole debacle all the worse.
I think it makes it much more unlikely. When you feel something is unjust and 'people' agree but the system doesn't, you may feel supported and more compelled to do something vigilante-ish. When you risk becoming another victim, this time of the system AND your neighbors, not so much. Unless you know the unjustly treated victim, of course.

I guess it also helps that there isn't a single clear bad guy here. There's so many of them :/


#262

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

I don't know, man. Small towns. Insulated bubbles. "They're just children" and all that. I can easily see people putting on the blinders and moving on.
It's Steubenville. Football is serious business there. Forget the small town, bubbles, and all that. It's all about the football.


#263

Espy

Espy

It's Steubenville. Football is serious business there. Forget the small town, bubbles, and all that. It's all about the football.
And considering how these people have acted already would YOU want to be the person who stood up against them?

*obviously, yeah, some of us would want to be that person, but we don't have to live there and deal with the consequences of such actions. It's a lot to ask of someone in that position. And illegal.


#264

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

And considering how these people have acted already would YOU want to be the person who stood up against them?

*obviously, yeah, some of us would want to be that person, but we don't have to live there and deal with the consequences of such actions. It's a lot to ask of someone in that position. And illegal.
And if you do stand up, you can go to prison for longer than the rapists.


#265

Espy

Espy

Yup.


#266

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

A judge was ambushed in Ohio this morning. The judge and a probation officer returned fire, killing the shooter.

The shooter was the father of one of the Steubenville rape suspects. He had a record, and officials are saying this is probably not connected, but still. Odd coincidence.


#267

PatrThom

PatrThom

A judge was ambushed in Ohio this morning. The judge and a probation officer returned fire, killing the shooter.

The shooter was the father of one of the Steubenville rape suspects. He had a record, and officials are saying this is probably not connected, but still. Odd coincidence.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nevertellmetheodds/

--Patrick


#268

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

A judge was ambushed in Ohio this morning. The judge and a probation officer returned fire, killing the shooter.

The shooter was the father of one of the Steubenville rape suspects. He had a record, and officials are saying this is probably not connected, but still. Odd coincidence.
A piece of shit raised a piece of shit.


#269

Eriol

Eriol

A judge was ambushed in Ohio this morning. The judge and a probation officer returned fire, killing the shooter.

The shooter was the father of one of the Steubenville rape suspects. He had a record, and officials are saying this is probably not connected, but still. Odd coincidence.
Because nobody else has said it, it's explicitly mentioned in that article that the Judge had nothing to do with the Son's case, but DID have the shooter in front of him on more than one occasion. I still agree with @sixpackshaker's explanation though
Police named Nathaniel Richmond, 51 — the father of Ma'lik Richmond, one of two teenage high school football stars from Steubenville, Ohio, convicted in 2013 of raping a 16-year-old girl — as the shooter in the ambush. Bruzzese had nothing to do with that case, officials said.

But the judge was not defenseless. The armed Bruzzese returned fire with his own weapon, according to police.

A probation officer, who was behind Bruzzese, also fired at Richmond.
"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"


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