Dave
Staff member
I'm sorry, let me try again.
C'mon, Payday! So I can sell you and get Wasteland 2!
C'mon, Payday! So I can sell you and get Wasteland 2!
Man, I'm ready to play some Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel. If only there was a way to GET IT FOR FREE! Because that would be just super.
Super Smash Bros 3DS demo: Now that it's available to everyone, my wife and I have been playing together. It's not up there in the ranks of favorite fighting game for her like it is for me; she prefers button-mashing on Soul Calibur or Injustice. Smash Bros has never really been her thing because you can't just button-mash since you're trying to knock people off and not get knocked off. I had her do some practice with recoveries for a while, let her fight the CPU, and we did some practice fights. Then we did some ones where I let her win so she'd get some confidence. After that, I decided to see what she could do.
So why the hell is she still winning?!
So why the hell is she still winning?!
It's about as underwhelming as you'd expect. If I had any praise, I'd say Kratos handles as clunky here as in his own games.
I own that game on Vita and PS3! Well, I think it was on ps3, and it came with a free Vita download.
I've played maybe 30 minutes of it total. I used to wonder what a sony version of smash bros would be like. It turns out it sucks.
I could be wrong, but he MAY be referring to the fact that the second act of Broken Age is still pending.
figmentPez
Staff member
I think Jay means that they got the project done with their Kickstarter budget, didn't have to release half now and half later just to get some additional sales, and didn't abandon the project without all the promised features like Spacebase DF-9 will.
I didn't realize giving the backers more for their money was a bad thing. Less game delivered in one part is better than more game delivered in two for the same cost? I don't know about you, but I'll take the latter pretty much everytime.
As for Spacebase DF-9, that was unfortunate, but an issue with the reliance on Steam Early access rather than Kickstarter use.
As for Spacebase DF-9, that was unfortunate, but an issue with the reliance on Steam Early access rather than Kickstarter use.
Well, you say that, but the reason that the game was split in two was that the Kickstarter covered the costs for the first half of the game and they were relying on actual sales of the game to fund the second half. Had it been a monumental flop upon release, we would never have seen the second half of the game.
My point is that Double Fine made it work because they're Double Fine. I don't think less known (and respected) publishers would have been able to pull the same thing off, as shown by the Spacebase DF-9 incident.
Had it been a monumental flop, then it would have likely been a crappy game, which would be the bigger issue rather than it being in two parts. Of course, expecting a Double Fine adventure game to not be a massive flop is a pretty safe bet. They could have taken the totally safe route, yes, and made a smaller game, but then we'd be left wondering what could have been. I like the ambition they showed in doing more.
figmentPez
Staff member
Yeah, because Grim Fandango was a crappy game.
Likely != guarenteed. Also, despite being considered a commericial failure, Grim Fandango is said by LucasArts to have "met domestic expectations and exceeded them worldwide". That doesn't even seem to fall under the category of "monumental flop".
Necronic
Staff member
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by Wasteland 2. My game of choice for that genre was Jagged Alliance 2 (1.13), so I'm a pretty harsh critic of this style, but wastelands is all right. I'm actually reading/following the story too, which...like...never happens with me (I hate story in games). Some stuff about the combat seems a little off, can't put my finger on it yet, maybe its a bit too forgiving? I dunno. And the enemy NPC's seem pretty glitchy at times, like I can just run past them without triggering them/them seeing me and then later walk past them and they won't do a thing to me.
I also don't love how you have to tie yourself too much to a specific gun type. It strikes me as sort of lazy design. I think they could have made more interesting choices with gun skills (like instead of having "sniper rifle" skill you get a "steady shot" skill which would be good with sniper rifles but could also benefit other guns, or "quick draw" which would lower AP cost for drawing your weapon), but that sort of stuff would have required a more complex combat model (like charging AP for readying your weapon). Although considering the kind of game they were making I'm a bit disappointed how boring the combat model is. Headshots are the only "body" wound you can do, no legs or arms etc. Medical stuff is pretty simple as well, but that's not much of a departure from Fallout. I just wish someone would have the stones to try and bring the JA style combat model to a game like this.
For all my complaints though, it really is a good game.
I also don't love how you have to tie yourself too much to a specific gun type. It strikes me as sort of lazy design. I think they could have made more interesting choices with gun skills (like instead of having "sniper rifle" skill you get a "steady shot" skill which would be good with sniper rifles but could also benefit other guns, or "quick draw" which would lower AP cost for drawing your weapon), but that sort of stuff would have required a more complex combat model (like charging AP for readying your weapon). Although considering the kind of game they were making I'm a bit disappointed how boring the combat model is. Headshots are the only "body" wound you can do, no legs or arms etc. Medical stuff is pretty simple as well, but that's not much of a departure from Fallout. I just wish someone would have the stones to try and bring the JA style combat model to a game like this.
For all my complaints though, it really is a good game.
Necronic
Staff member
Games rarely if ever can tell a fluid story. There are too many immersion breaking moments, like, say, dying and reloading. Or having to "kill 10 lady bugs". Or messing with my keybinding. Or being a life or death time-crisis emergency and then I go and loot all the crates in the room. They just aren't really a good vehicle for storytelling compared to say, a book. Now, I won't universally dismiss games, I think that when the vehicle is well understood then you can actually tell a good story with a game, but most don't. One of the few exceptions to this are the games that recognize that the real story dynamically unfolds on user input, the user creates the story (like DF or EvE). So sandbox games can actually tell a pretty serious story. Or games where the environment is nearly unknown, where exposition hardly exists and its up to the user to discover the story and fill int he gaps himself. Dark Souls for instance. You couldn't write a book/movie like that. Maybe David Lynch could, I dunno.
This isn't to say that there aren't good stories in games. You need to appreciate the subtle difference in what I am saying here. I'm saying that those stories would almost always have been better as a book or TV show. Take for instance that zombie game that I can't for the life of me figure out the name for right now...with the girl and the dude and he's protecting her or whatever. As good as the game was, imagine the book.
I've never really understood the gamer's love of stories in games. I used to attribute it to a general illiteracy, but I'm not sure that's fair, I think gamers might actually be pretty decently well read. So why they go for the "choose-your-own adventure" level of story telling found in games and compare that to an actually good story is beyond me.
This isn't to say that there aren't good stories in games. You need to appreciate the subtle difference in what I am saying here. I'm saying that those stories would almost always have been better as a book or TV show. Take for instance that zombie game that I can't for the life of me figure out the name for right now...with the girl and the dude and he's protecting her or whatever. As good as the game was, imagine the book.
I've never really understood the gamer's love of stories in games. I used to attribute it to a general illiteracy, but I'm not sure that's fair, I think gamers might actually be pretty decently well read. So why they go for the "choose-your-own adventure" level of story telling found in games and compare that to an actually good story is beyond me.
Well, you yourself acknowledge that there can be good stories in games, so is it that strange that whether the story could potentially be better as a book or not doesn't change that they enjoyed it in game form?
The Walking Dead. And I don't have to imagine the book, they already exist as a series of graphic novels and a tv show. I have to disagree that it would have made a better book, because it is the interactivity that makes the story unique. That alone changes the experience.
...Huh, I thought he was referring to The Last of Us. Despite the fact that I haven't played it, but have played The Walking Dead, so I'm not sure why that one didn't occur to me. Now I'm honestly not sure which one he meant.
Well, the Last of Us wasn't technically zombies.
GasBandit
Staff member
Heh, careful there buddy, you just eliminated most JRPGs!
And Mass Effect.
GasBandit
Staff member
Necronic
Staff member
Actually he just eliminated like 90% of games.[DOUBLEPOST=1411499064,1411498999][/DOUBLEPOST]Listen, find me a game that has a story anywhere near as good as Confederacy of Dunces and then we can talk.[DOUBLEPOST=1411499391][/DOUBLEPOST]You know what, I'll give you one sub-genre that can be truly excellent at story, generally better than novels or film: Horror games. Interactive games are the absolute best way to tell those stories.[DOUBLEPOST=1411499568][/DOUBLEPOST]
That's why I don't like story too much in games, because it takes away from the actual game.
PS. I fully appreciate that this view is shared by almost no one here, however I am totally willing to have a 3 day long argument about it.
LETS GET IT ON.[DOUBLEPOST=1411499803][/DOUBLEPOST]Also....BECAUSE I WILL JUST KEEP RESPONDING TO MYSELF...Ico is a piece of art in my opinion. It sort of falls into that Dark Souls style of minimalistic story telling I described earlier. It tells a different kind of tale than a book ever could. This is very different from something like Mass Effect.
Oh god...and see, THIS is exactly my point. People raved about Mass Effect like it was this incredible game due to the compelling "story". News flash folks. That story was on the quality level of Star Wars extended universe licensed fiction. Now don't get me wrong, Tales From Jabba's Palace is the bomb. But its candy. Richard Morgan books have deeper moral insights. And Mass Effect chose to rely too heavily on story and did not give proper treatment to balance, which is something that infuriates me. Within the first 30 minutes of gameplay I was finding horrendously obvious balance problems, which really shouldn't occur in a quality AAA single player title.
That's why I don't like story too much in games, because it takes away from the actual game.
PS. I fully appreciate that this view is shared by almost no one here, however I am totally willing to have a 3 day long argument about it.
LETS GET IT ON.[DOUBLEPOST=1411499803][/DOUBLEPOST]Also....BECAUSE I WILL JUST KEEP RESPONDING TO MYSELF...Ico is a piece of art in my opinion. It sort of falls into that Dark Souls style of minimalistic story telling I described earlier. It tells a different kind of tale than a book ever could. This is very different from something like Mass Effect.
GasBandit
Staff member
I think the reference was more about it not being a game because no matter what you chose, the ultimate outcome of the story was the same (Mass Effect 3's ending).
Compare that to games that have multiple endings that depend on choices the player made.
My point about Chrono Trigger, though, is not that it is a bad game or a bad story, but that the medium is an essential part of how the story is told and how the audience/player is engaged.
On a more serious note, however, there's one thing games can do that books can't do - write their own story on the fly. I hate to use a buzzword, but emergent gameplay sometimes makes for the stories that are the most engaging, because you really can't be sure what's going to happen next. A la halforums house - start with a situation, a premise, a set of rules, and promptly turn a series of mundane and common events into a riveting narrative that held a great many of us in rapt attention for its duration.
However, a book version of the events of any of the halforums houses, or even Halforums Academy with the juicy bits left in, would be an excruciatingly tedious read.