X-Men relationship chart

[twitchmoss]

 

[Bowielee]

I stand corrected. It just proves my point how unoriginal and bland all characters created by Leifeld are. However, many of the characters he created ended up being made awsome by people who actually knew what to do with them.

 

[Covar]

I stand corrected. It just proves my point how unoriginal and bland all characters created by Leifeld are. However, many of the characters he created ended up being made awsome by people who actually knew what to do with them.

yea, Deadpool is an awesome character now. people like Gail Simone really did a lot to make him more than just a Deathstroke rip.

 

[@Li3n]

I think you guys are confusing continuity with canon... I mean pre-crisis DC is canon, but it doesn't affect the continuity... unless you're Barry Allen.... but he got better.


also, you do the Deathstroke in the Deadpool...

 

[JCM]

I think you guys are confusing continuity with canon... I mean pre-crisis DC is canon, but it doesn't affect the continuity... unless you're Barry Allen.... but he got better.


also, you do the Deathstroke in the Deadpool...

Pre-Crisis DC is continuity two, only with stuff that keeps on going outside the normal Earth, and yes, it does affect normal DC, after all we have the pre-crisis Superman becoming a Black Lantern and Superboy Prime fucking things around. To clear up the confusion that canon and continuity are different, here´s what wiki says on the Golden Age Superman-

When the Golden Age of Comic Books came to a close in the 1950s, most of DC Comics' superhero comic books ceased publication. The commencement of the Silver Age saw characters such as the Flash and Green Lantern revamped for more modern times, ignoring or abandoning established continuity and thus creating a clean break between the two eras. It was later established that the Golden Age heroes and Silver Age heroes actually lived on Earth-Two and Earth-One respectively, separate parallel Earths in a single Multiverse.
However, Superman was one of the few exceptions; his stories had been published without interruption since his debut in 1938's Action Comics #1. This caused a continuity problem, specifically that Superman was simultaneously a member of the Justice Society of America on Earth-Two and also member of the Justice League of America on Earth-One. It was eventually established that there were two Supermen.[1] The "current", Silver Age Superman was Kal-El from Earth-One, while the Golden Age Superman was Kal-L from Earth-Two.
Several minor differences between the two Supermen were established to make the distinction clearer. The names "Kal-El", "Jor-El" and "Jonathan and Martha Kent" on Earth-One became "Kal-L", "Jor-L" and "John and Mary Kent" on Earth-Two. Kal-L's S-shield symbol was slightly different. Stories featuring both Supermen also indicated that Kal-L was the older of the two, being depicted as late middle-aged with greying hair at the temples, while his Earth-One counterpart was a youthful man of modern times.
This not only allowed DC Comics to bring Superman's Golden Age stories back into continuity, but also led them to experiment with a Superman who wasn't the mainstream one. Thus, several differences between Kal-L and the more well-known Kal-El were introduced. Kal-L eventually revealed his dual identities of Clark Kent and Superman to the woman he loved, the Lois Lane of Earth-Two, and they got married.[2] Their early marital life was depicted in the feature "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" in DC's Superman Family series.

for DC, their golden age heroes and stories are in in continuity, just happening elsewhere, just a different Earth.

In Marvel, we have the dimension-hopping "The Exiles" labelling and putting everything from 2099 and Marvel Zombies to Age of apocalypse and MC2 as different dimensions.

So its canon. And part of continuity. Minus the retcons, of course.

 

[@Li3n]

Eh... dude, that's pre-1stcrisis... then after Earth-2 no longer existed. Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

But of course i'm just needlessly complicating it by trying to separate canon and continuity.


Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore...

 

*rubs his temples* Ow, my head.

 

[JCM]

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

 

[SpecialKO]

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

 

[CynicismKills]

I feel like you're all trying to map the Human Genome in here.

Sadly I think that'd be less complicated.

 

[Bowielee]

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

 

[SpecialKO]

Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

Any DC continuity that is mentioned as part of "52" is "in continuity". This includes the current version of Earth-2, where Powergirl is from.

This would be true of Superboy Prime's universe as well, except that it was established in continuity that his universe no longer exists (at least until the next crisis ).

IMO, there are degrees of interaction here that make the difference. DC's Elseworlds rarely (if ever, in fact, as best as I can be certain) interact with the main continuity. Vertigo is tough because the circumstances behind its authorship and editorial decisions have effectively pushed it out of continuity with regular DC, even though they were unquestionably linked before.

AoA has had a large number of interactions with 616 Marvel that have had long-term consequences, but they also benefit enormously from having that interaction been established before Marvel's continuity-numbering system had any consequence outside of Captain Britain/Excalibur comics. Same argument goes for the Supreme Power universe.

However, Ultimate, and to a lesser extent 2099 since the Exiles completely retconned it, have more or less not had any consequences on 616, and are effectively "out of continuity".





We are such a bunch of nerds.

[schild:30lndqm7]NERDS![/schild:30lndqm7]

 

[JCM]

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

Its just another location. And just wait a few months and DC's gonna bring back some character or threats from another Earth/multiverse, so its all basically continuity.

 

[@Li3n]

]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Unless people in NY are all clones of people in LA your analogy is awful...

And the Zombieverse already tied 616 to Ultimate like 3 times, and Marvel considers What If's part of th Multiverse...

What i meant was more like Supes case, where all his adventures where published continually, and there's no clear point where Golden and Silver Age Supes started being different... none of the stories from WW2 are in continuity for Silver Age Earth-1 Supes etc.

Or Spiderman... it's canon that he was married to MJ, but at the moment it doesn't affect his continuity, which has been altered by Mephisto...

But of course after the initial post i realized pretty fast how stupid it was, as american comics books are a huge jumbled mess when it comes to continuity and canon... and any attempt at making sense of it will fail...

 

]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Actually, after Infinite Crisis, she remembers the old Earth 2 and she's now the last survivor of that particular Earth 2. Then, they had a story where she met up with the characters from the NEW Earth 2, who wondered where their Superman went to...

...and then ran into the Power Girl from THAT universe.

....

Damnit, here comes that headache again.

 

[JCM]

]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Actually, after Infinite Crisis, she remembers the old Earth 2 and she's now the last survivor of that particular Earth 2. Then, they had a story where she met up with the characters from the NEW Earth 2, who wondered where their Superman went to...

...and then ran into the Power Girl from THAT universe.

....

Damnit, here comes that headache again.

Then it will be retconned, or DC will do yet another reboot and start with Earth 2000 or something, and all headaches will increase.

But of course after the initial post i realized pretty fast how stupid it was, as american comics books are a huge jumbled mess when it comes to continuity and canon... and any attempt at making sense of it will fail..

Which is why I barely buy american comics that arent creator-owned, because most Marvel and DC titles are just whoring out and making stories that wont be canon or matter, because as soon as that other new hot writer who will move another paltry 10,000 copies comes along, it will all be retconned.

Hurray for american indepedent comics, Seinen manga and manhua, that have the balls to tell a story and actually end it.

 

Yeah, it's pretty much why I'm starting to hate mainstream comics. There's a friend of mine who calls all the time to tell me me who's dead, who came back, who's wearing a new costume, etc and I just want to scream "I DON'T CARE!" because everything will eventually get reset back to the status quo, anyway. I mean, the mythologies pretty much remain intact. Superman will fight Luthor and spends time with Lois. Batman fights the Joker and hangs out with Alfred and Robin. They'll have temporary changes where "nothing will ever be the same again!" and "Everything you know is a lie!" but it all gets retconned away by the next creative team and it all goes back to square one.

Fortunately, American comics also have Vertigo comics, where there's actual development of story and characters.

 

[Green_Lantern]

Yeah, it's pretty much why I'm starting to head mainstream comics. There's a friend of mine who calls all the time to tell me me who's dead, who came back, who's wearing a new costume, etc and I just want to scream "I DON'T CARE!" because everything will eventually get reset back to the status quo, anyway. I mean, the mythologies pretty much remain intact. Superman will fight Luthor and spends time with Lois. Batman fights the Joker and hangs out with Alfred and Robin. They'll have temporary changes where "nothing will ever be the same again!" and "Everything you know is a lie!" but it all gets retconned away by the next creative team and it all goes back to square one.

Fortunately, American comics also have Vertigo comics, where there's actual development of story and characters.

Wait, are you sure you meant that?

 

Fixed it. Was writing that while eating breakfast.

 

[JCM]

Dont worry, it happens to all of us.

And seeing that American comics are left with the top five comics barely hitting 100-200 thousand, with them being old 30-year-to-60-year old IP, and the rest not selling more than 100,000, the american comic book industry has basically lost all but a few sad nerds who still enjoy the whoring out of their fave characters, while smaller markets ala Japan, Brazil, South Korea and France has sales of 4-10 million (China's at 20 million for their weekly manhuas, but then theyve got a billion-something people).

Heck, the American (weekly) Shounen Jump sells at 400 thousand weekly in the US.

Thankfully image, Dark Horse and Vertigo still keep giving us awesome new comics, and sometimes the big two manage to get something awesome done (Green Lantern corps), so there's still hope.

 

[SpecialKO]

Speaking of non-US comics...

Is there a good french BD torrent site out there? I've been looking for Marini's "Les Aigles de Rome", but even getting family in Europe to send it to me is pretty pricey for what it is, and I'm skeptical of his writing ability since this is his first doing both the art and story.

I tried the usual everything-under-the-sun places but the torrents there are never seeded for something so relatively obscure.

 

[Frank]

Dont worry, it happens to all of us.

And seeing that American comics are left with the top five comics barely hitting 100-200 thousand, with them being old 30-year-to-60-year old IP, and the rest not selling more than 100,000, the american comic book industry has basically lost all but a few sad nerds who still enjoy the whoring out of their fave characters, while smaller markets ala Japan, Brazil, South Korea and France has sales of 4-10 million (China's at 20 million for their weekly manhuas, but then theyve got a billion-something people).

Heck, the American (weekly) Shounen Jump sells at 400 thousand weekly in the US.

Thankfully image, Dark Horse and Vertigo still keep giving us awesome new comics, and sometimes the big two manage to get something awesome done (Green Lantern corps), so there's still hope.

Image puts out some good stuff too.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Ok, Robert Kirkman puts out some good stuff too.

 

[@Li3n]

Speaking of non-US comics...

Is there a good french BD torrent site out there? I've been looking for Marini's "Les Aigles de Rome", but even getting family in Europe to send it to me is pretty pricey for what it is, and I'm skeptical of his writing ability since this is his first doing both the art and story.

I tried the usual everything-under-the-sun places but the torrents there are never seeded for something so relatively obscure.

Your best chance would be some french person tipping you off to a french tracker...

 

Yeah, there's still been some really great Big Two stuff in the last few years that are relatively safe from the giant crossovers:

-Captain America (referencing crossovers, but can still be read on its own pretty safely)
-Iron Fist
-Nova
-Guardians of the Galaxy (pretty much all the galactic stuff since the first Annhilation epic has been awesome)
-Green Lantern (and GL Corps)
-All Star Superman
-Criminal (if you cound Marvel's Icon imprint)
-Hulk (wellll...Planet Hulk was awesome and World War Hulk was kinda fun; Loeb's Hulk has stunk)
-Incredible Hercules (just going by what I've heard; too broke to buy it, yet)

 

[Bowielee]

-Guardians of the Galaxy (pretty much all the galactic stuff since the first Annhilation epic has been awesome)

Frankly, you could have tipped me over with a feather when I found out they brought this book back. I read it all the time when I was a kid.

Is the new book in the same continuity as the original, or is this a new alternate future?

 

[@Li3n]

Actually it's in the present Marvel timeline... it stars Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Phila Vel, Gamora, Moondragon, Adam Warlock and some others... and they're based in a severed Celestial head... BUY IT!

 

[JCM]

Yeah, there's still been some really great Big Two stuff in the last few years that are relatively safe from the giant crossovers:

-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Criminal (if you cound Marvel's Icon imprint)
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it

No thanks, Im not an idiot to buy stories that wont matter.

I miss the old days of DC having the balls to do (and END) Transmetropolitan, Hitman, The invisibles, Preacher, Sandman, et al, heck the only comics are buy are those related to the Green Lantern Corps (with shitloads of new characters and corps). Not that Marvel ever had the balls to do that.

You know, end a story. Because there will always be idiots buying the same shit, and as long as the top ten comics are the same fucking Superman/Xmen/Batman, american comics will never be taken seriously as quality literature, or anything but a subculture for Marvel and DC fans to get their monthly old IP whoring with sales even lower than the shittiest kiddie manga or unknown French BD.

 

[Shannow]

 

[@Li3n]

-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it

No thanks, Im not an idiot to buy stories that wont matter.

How exactly does a story matter if it ends and it doesn't affect anything that comes after it, because nothing comes after it?!

I mean i'd understand if you hated the lack of closure or something, but it's not exactly like you can't just read the story as a stand alone and ignore the retcon if you don't like it...

 

Wow. You DOUBLED my list! But here's the thing with my list:

-All Star Superman DID end. It was 12 issues and that was it. It's a self contained maxi-series within its own universe, contained Superman mythology and some of the best Superman stories ever told.

-Almost all the titles that you listed are Vertigo titles which: a) Have one creative team (or at least one writer) throughout its entire run and b) Has a planned ending from the very beginning. Hitman ending had nothing to do with DC and everything to do with Ennis and McCray. They were given great freedoms to do the book and THEY chose to end it. Ennis also (Warning: Hitman ending spoiler behind the black!) [spoiler:2wainwij]killed of Monagan (sp?) at the end to ensure DC couldn't touch him. Maybe he'll come back as a Black Lantern. [/spoiler:2wainwij]

-There's nothing wrong with particular RUNS of a comic series by creative teams , which sometimes get to have a great send off when the creative team is finished. For example, Geoff Johns' run (no pun intended) on Flash. Er, his previous one. It was great stuff and you could safely read it and that's it. Ditto for Rucka's run on Wonder Woman. Sure, they continue on with a new creative team, but the runs are enjoyable at the time and there's some really great writing and art in there. I think once Brubaker's run on Captain America finishes (he's going into the third and final act of it, now), people will really look back on it as probably the best run on Captain America since Kirby and Simon.

-Speaking of Green Lantern, do you think the book is going to end when Johns moves onto other projects? Of course not. It's DC's cash cow right now and they'll continue to bleed it for all its worth even after Blackest Night and whatever else Johns has planned. So, why does that get a free pass when everything going on right now could easily be washed away by the next creative team, as well? GL has gone through big changes before and it will again. Like I said above, it's a great RUN on the book(s) right now and is highly enjoyable.

 

[JCM]

-All Star Superman DID end.

Yet another retelling of Superman. Wohoo, how many times can DC waste good talent telling the SAME FUCKING story?

Hitman ending had nothing to do with DC and everything to do with Ennis and McCray.

Last TBP had Ennis saying that he killed Hitman and got a contract done to not turn hitman into yet another IP milked to the ground.

-There's nothing wrong with particular RUNS of a comic series by creative teams , which sometimes get to have a great send off when the creative team is finished. For example, hot new writer!´s run (no pun intended) on old IP. Ditto for hot new writer!´s run on yet another old IP. Old IP old IP.....

Heh, the classic "lets put a hot writer so that people will kepp buying the same old shit"

Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, NEW.


Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Only american comics lives solely on the whoring of old characters. If people would stop buying them (most are, as sales are steadily reducing), one day the big two would have to grow up and give us something new.

-Speaking of Green Lantern, do you think the book is going to end when Johns moves onto other projects?

[/quote]Didnt you read?

I dont give a shit about Green Lantern. I love the corps. Thosuands of new worlds, characters, countless stories and corps, thats the most creativity shown by mainstream DC in a decade, as soon as its back to "hey its the same old shitty Green Lantern" Im using my money to buy mahua, bds or seinen manga, thank you.


Sorry, I can only stand so many retellings of the same fucking story and different takes on the same character. Thank god tv and books survive mostly on new IP, otherwise I´d be stuck watching:

-Frank Miller´s inspector gadget, now with guns under the new MAX imprint

-Thundercats X, now with new members He-man and Captain Planet!

-The A-Angels (A-Team joined by the Charlie´s angels), but who is the mysterious white MrT?

-the 50th retelling of Knight Rider, hey look, now its a grittier writer who makes him say bad words, and its All-Star Knight rider.

-the 30th "hot" writer on Agatha cristie´s Hercule Poirot, now back after being exiled to another planet and with a group of angry midgets to back him.

-The Ring Wars! The Hobbits now disagree with Aragorn´s new drinking rules, and are joining with the elves to fight against the humans and Dwarves. Oh, and the Naz´gul will reveal his face in public.

-Ultimate Harry Potter. We have wand bazzokas, bitch.

-The Godfather vs It. Enough said.

 

Yet another retelling of Superman. Wohoo, how many times can DC waste good talent telling the SAME smurfing story?

That's the thing with Superman at this point: changes won't be made, but stories within the mythology can be told that are still good stories. And All Star Superman is one of those great pieces of writing. It's just different interpretations of the character at this point. Besides, Morrison HAS done things of his own, such as Seaguy, Invisibles, Animal Man (kind of, but he made it his own property that was untouchable for years), etc.

Last TBP had Ennis saying that he killed Hitman and got a contract done to not turn hitman into yet another IP milked to the ground.

Exactly, but he still had creative control over the character to do so. Or it was DC being nice, at least, and respect his wishes. He still ended the series on his own terms.

Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, new.

Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Oh! You mean like Rucka cutting his teeth in the business with Whiteout (movie coming in September!)? Or his creator owned series, Queen & Country? Or his series of Atticus Kodiak novels? Or Checkmate, which was DC owned, but was pretty much his baby from the start?

Geoff Johns, on the other hand, probably loves playing with all the toys of the DC universe. In fact, he excels there because he brings in a lot of continuity from decades. I don't know IF he would be good at creating his own property. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But he makes good money doing what he does now and clearly enjoys it.

That's thing thing, though, about "whoring these old characters". They make money. They've always made money and always WILL make money. X-Men sells basically on name, alone, thanks to fanboys, but that's no different than Star Wars fanboys wanting to buy hair from George Lucas when he trims his beard.

These writers aren't forced to write the "same old shit". A lot of times, it's the only way to make a living in the business because new properties are so hit and miss that you never know what will sell and what won't. Mike Mignola lucked out with Hellboy, but before that, he was working with both companies for years, too. But not every property is the next Hellboy. For every successfuly new property or comic, there are probably hundreds that get ignored or cancelled. There's no way to predict what will be a hit and what won't, so yeah, the companies of course are going to focus on the properties that have consistently made them money for 30-70 years.

ONLY American comics whore out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh? Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Godzilla is basically the same old shit every time. Power Rangers. In fact, Japan has just as many major properties that they whore out and bring back with a different "creative team" or version than the US has ever done. Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either. It's still the Doctor running around in his Tardis, time travelling and fighting Daleks. It may not be comics, specifically, but it's still the same idea, is it not? It's longtime properties.

Hell, there's that Shakespeare guy that still has his work redone in different variations for hundreds of years. And that's still the same old shit, too, right?

Sales might be steadily reducing, but there are always, always, ALWAYS going to be fanboys who just want to see Gambit and Rogue get back together that will keep them afloat.

As for the TV shows and movies and such...wasn't there a revived show that just finished up? Battlestar...something or other. New creative team, etc etc. V's coming back soon, too. Hollywood's no different than comics. They'll sooner stick with properties that are guaranteed to make them money rather than risking on something that's new that the audience might not pay money to see.

 

[SpecialKO]

ONLY American comics * out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh? Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Godzilla is basically the same old poop every time. Power Rangers. In fact, Japan has just as many major properties that they * out and bring back with a different "creative team" or version than the US has ever done. Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either. It's still the Doctor running around in his Tardis, time travelling and fighting Daleks. It may not be comics, specifically, but it's still the same idea, is it not? It's longtime properties.

I think JCM's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the American comic book industry, unlike many of its international contemporaries, is the only one that currently makes a primary industry practice out of milking their IP after the original creators have died/moved on, while comic industries in other countries thrive as much on new IP as on their old ones.

Japan certainly loves their classic anime IP, but even in just the last ten years, there's been so much original anime IP that's reached worldwide attention, like Cowboy Bebop, and Death Note, and Detective Conan, and Samurai Champloo, and Wolf's Rain, and Gankustuo, and FMA, and FMP, and Last Exile, and every new movie released by Miyakazi or Otomo.

 

Yeah, I'm not denying that in the least. Like I said, it's part of why I'm getting tired of mainstream comics. But that doesn't mean you have to ignore ALL of it. There are some great, memorable runs on characters by creative teams throughout the years and I could probably be here all day listing said great runs throughout the decades.

But it's not to say that the kind of milking of an IP isn't done elsewhere, not just in comics. Companies will milk a character for all their worth unless it's creator owned. If there's money to be made, then there's no end to the character. I love a good story, just not when they hype things like "Nothing will ever be the same!" or "Everything you know is a lie!" It's why I'm getting tired of stories where they "shake things up" just for the media attention. Mind you, Captain America in the last few years has been exactly that, but the execution of it has been so well done that it's hard to complain.

Stories are retold all the time to the point that there's little originality anymore, but that's not a practice done just in comics. Novelists use mytholgy or previous events or things like that as a springboard for their story. Hell, even Shakespeare only had two plays which were entirely original and not based on previous history or works (Tempest and Midsummer Night's Dream), but even then, they were influenced by previoius works. He retold stories that audiences were already familiar with, but they were extremely well written retellings, so does that mean they shouldn't count, too?

More and more movies are either milking franchises (superhero movies) or remaking old 70s movies.

 

[SpecialKO]

Oh, execution makes a huge difference.

Shakespeare benefited from taking the stories and ideas behind his plays and making something that was uniquely his in style and expression.

The problem with Marvel and DC from this perspective is that they really don't like to allow their writers to do that because new stories aren't just adaptations of their old IP, they are their old IP and you can only go so far before stepping on editorial toes.

It's notable that some of the best recent examples of the writer-runs on classic IP in American comics is when the writers have had enough clout to really do things that make their runs unique and interesting.

It's unfortunate that when those runs end, the powers-that-be retcon by decree, which is again, one of those things that really seems to piss off JCM. :heythere: