X-Men relationship chart

And one of the things that pisses me off, too, believe me. For example, Captain America. I honestly wish they'd just keep Steve Rogers dead for years, but at the same time, I understand that this is a 3 act story that Brubaker has been planning since issue 1. By the end of it, everything will likely go back to status quo, but it's going to be one hell of a ride.

Another good example, which unfortunately is part of what started a lot of the whole mess in the first place, was the death of Superman. The 3 acts for that (Death, Funeral, Reign of the Supermen) is fantastic, if a bit dated now. It was a hell of a ride at the time and still one of my favourite Superman stories within the actual core books.

As I said, though, at this point, there's no changing the actual mythology. Superman will always fight Luthor. Batman will always fight Joker. But sometimes, out of a LOT of the garbage that is told, there's some genuinely great stories that are self contained, can be read by anyone and available in, say, one or two volumes. Again, best example of this is All Star Superman.

But yeah, as great as Planet Hulk was? All that character development and interest premise was shat away to make room for Loeb's horrible run.

 

[@Li3n]

Meh, if we're gonna start then:

Superman = Gladiator

Green Lantern (Hal) = Lensman

Alucard = it's just spelled backwards...

Batman = Zorro


meh, everything is "inspired" off something else...

 

Superman = Gladiator

Neat! I hadn't even heard of that before. Excuse me, I got me a book to order. Thanks!
(no sarcasm here at all; I really am thankful!)

 

[SpecialKO]

Meh, if we're gonna start then:

Superman = Gladiator

Green Lantern (Hal) = Lensman

Alucard = it's just spelled backwards...

Batman = Zorro


meh, everything is \"inspired\" off something else...

I don't think anyone is really going there, as opposed to complaining about Marvel/DC's stripmining of their own concepts to make stories for those same concepts, and then hand-waving those stories away in order to continue the process.

Warren Ellis' willingness to both mock and honor classic superhero tropes with his run on Stormwatch, the Authority, and Planetary is a perfect example of how old ideas and IP can become new again.

 

[Shannow]

Superman = Gladiator

Neat! I hadn't even heard of that before. Excuse me, I got me a book to order. Thanks!
(no sarcasm here at all; I really am thankful!)

Wow...really? I thought most comic fans knew about that one.

 

[@Li3n]

I had to get something on Supes to use to defend Cpt. Marvel... SHAZAM!


Also, Dragon Ball = Journey to the West...


And Gladiator's powers are more or less Herakles...

 

[JCM]

That's the thing with Superman at this point: changes won't be made, but stories within the mythology can be told that are still good stories.

So you enjoy hearing the same stories over and over.

I´ll agree to disagree.

Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, new.

Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Oh! You mean like Rucka cutting his teeth in the business with Whiteout (movie coming in September!)? Or his creator owned series, Queen & Country? Or his series of Atticus Kodiak novels? Or Checkmate, which was DC owned, but was pretty much his baby from the start?

Now count the number of those.

And the number of titles with Batman in them. Guess what DC publishes more? :slywink:
As I said, there are a few great new stories being told, but far too few, with very little advertising.

That's thing thing, though, about "whoring these old characters". They make money. They've always made money and always WILL make money. X-Men sells basically on name, alone, thanks to fanboys, but that's no different than Star Wars fanboys wanting to buy hair from George Lucas when he trims his beard.

Exactly.

You are not reading stories because DC wants to continue a plot, or expand a mythos, or to fill a plothole. DC wants money.
Remeber Superboy? He was killed simply because DC lost the right to the "Superboy" name as a comic title, and would have to pay the Siegel state money.

Writers are getting paid money to milk out to fans who dont dare change to newer IP. When sales decline, they´ll retcon everything so that the enxt writer can do what he wants.

The character doesnt matter, the story doesnt matter, just fans buying the same tired shit everymonth so that DC can overcharge for a comic matters.

These writers aren't forced to write the "same old shit". A lot of times, it's the only way to make a living in the business because new properties are so hit and miss that you never know what will sell and what won't.

So they arent forced becaue the market forces them to to survive?

ONLY American comics whore out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh?

It ended, havent you noticed?

Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Some rare Japanese IP that doesnt end!![/quote]Iditic example.

The top manga are almost always relatively new IP. Transformers? Godzilla? It doesnt sell squat very well.

[quote:3rf70ka9]Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either.

Yet BBC produces 10X more new properties than they have old properties being done.

Feel free to compare industries where its "Hey, 90% of what is show in a new property" to make your "hey 99% of the comics we put out are old IP" seem better, but mind you, it wont.

Because in the end, you can take all the old IP on tv, movies and manga that are still being done, and the total number wont reach the same number of comics with Spiderman, Wolverine, Batman and Superman in them.

The problem isnt old IP. Its the Excess of it.

I think JCM's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the American comic book industry, unlike many of its international contemporaries, is the only one that currently makes a primary industry practice out of milking their IP after the original creators have died/moved on, while comic industries in other countries thrive as much on new IP as on their old ones.

[/quote:3rf70ka9]Bingo.

 

[@Li3n]

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

 

That's the thing. They're not necissarily the same stories being told over and over. Superman: Birthright, for example, was kind of like Marvel's Ultimate line, where they take the character back to its roots only as if they started today, instead. Yeah, it's kind of cheap (okay, more than kind of), but the execution is done well and it's by one of the biggest Superman fans around (Mark Waid). I will fully admit that MOST of the stuff out there is crap, but sometimes, some good stories come through that tell the stories within the mythology in a different kind of way (again, All Star Superman. Seriously).

But you're right, the writers are kind of forced as a result of the market.

As far as the Rucka stuff, sure, DC sells more of Batman because he's a character that's been around for 70 years, with only a growing fanbase. Whiteout's only existed for about 10 years, ditto for Q&C, but both have won endless awards (Whiteout, I believe, won an Eisner, but don't quote me on that). How many Batbooks have won Eisners? But Rucka still writes for DC so he can feed his family, but he still does those other independent projects because it's something he loves.

Didn't know that DBZ ended. I stopped watching it after the Freiza stuff (catching it here and there), but I thought it kept going with DB GT or something. Or was that just the anime and the manga was totally creator written?

 

[Shegokigo]

The DBZ storyline was continued in GT, yes.

 

[SpecialKO]

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

 

[Shannow]

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

That sums up his argument right there.

 

[Krisken]

I'm going to toss this out there and see where it lands. A thought I had was without those "cash cows", a lot of new characters that were developed wouldn't have seen the light of day. I'm not big on comics myself, but is it at least somewhat feasible that those comics, which are sadly tried and true by being rehashed every decade, are sources of income that allow for new projects?

 

[SpecialKO]

I'm going to toss this out there and see where it lands. A thought I had was without those "cash cows", a lot of new characters that were developed wouldn't have seen the light of day. I'm not big on comics myself, but is it at least somewhat feasible that those comics, which are sadly tried and true by being rehashed every decade, are sources of income that allow for new projects?

Absolutely.

The cash cows fund the new business.

The problem is that the American side of the business seems to have devolved into the cash cows trying to shore themselves up, and so there's no new business that could become new cash cows.

 

[CynicismKills]

 

[AshburnerX]

What is that from, New Mutants?

 

[CynicismKills]

What is that from, New Mutants?

I think so. I have to find the whole page scan, it's pretty funny. Wolverine is basically babysitting the mystic-powered mutants. He's chasing someone, says that, then the girl there says "I hate this place."

 

[JCM]

The problem is that the American side of the business seems to have devolved into the cash cows trying to shore themselves up, and so there's no new business that could become new cash cows.

Sad but true.

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

Yep.

Here's a nice comparison-

Top selling Manga of 2008- Mind you, these are the compilations, not the weekly Shounen/Seinen anthologies, 3 franchises that are 10 years old, but all slated to end, the rest is pretty ecclectic.
Action manga for teens like Naruto, Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, a doctor-horror drama D.Gray-man, comedy title Kimi ni Todoke, drama like the awesome Nana and Boys Over Flowers, a story about a musician Nodame Cantabile and sci-fi in Pluto.
1 One Piece #50 Eiichiro Oda 1,678,208 Shueisha Y410
2 One Piece #51 Eiichiro Oda 1,646,978 Shueisha Y420
3 NANA #19 Ai Yazawa 1,645,128 Shueisha Y410
4 One Piece #49 Eiichiro Oda 1,544,000 Shueisha Y410
5 NANA #20 Ai Yazawa 1,431,335 Shueisha Y420
6 Nodame Cantabile #20 Tomoko Ninomiya 1,209,551 Kodansha Y420
7 Nodame Cantabile #21 Tomoko Ninomiya 1,205,037 Kodansha Y420
8 Naruto #43 Masashi Kishimoto 1,188,881 Shueisha Y450
9 Naruto #42 Masashi Kishimoto 1,092,295 Shueisha Y410
10 Fullmetal Alchemist #19 Hiromu Arakawa 1,081,575 Square Enix Y410
11 Fullmetal Alchemist #20 Hiromu Arakawa 1,032,637 Square Enix Y420
12 Bleach #34 Kubotite 874,153 Shueisha Y410
13 Hunter X Hunter #25 Yoshihiro Togashi 863,240 Shueisha Y420
14 Hunter X Hunter #26 Yoshihiro Togashi 837,714 Shueisha Y410
15 Boys Over Flowers (Hana Yori Dango) #37 Yoko Kamio 815,648 Shueisha Y410
16 Naruto #44 Masashi Kishimoto 812,612 Shueisha Y420
17 Bleach #33 Kubotite 802,692 Shueisha Y410
18 Bleach #35 Kubotite 761,802 Shueisha Y410
19 Naruto #41 Masashi Kishimoto 707,447 Shueisha Y410
20 Kimi ni Todoke #7 Karuho Shiina 649,089 Shueisha Y410
21 Kimi ni Todoke #6 Karuho Shiina 636,176 Shueisha Y410
22 D.Gray-man #15 Katsura Hoshino 632,495 Shueisha Y410
23 Pluto #6 Story: Osamu Tezuka 631,968 Shogakukan Y550
24 Vagabond #28 Original Novel: Eiji Yoshikawa
Art: Takehiko Inoue 630,147 Kodansha Y560
25 Detective Conan #61 Gosho Aoyama 626,445 Shogakukan Y410
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ng-no.1-25

Top selling movies of 2008- 4 old franchises more than 40 years of age, but some nice new movies.
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2008/top-grossing
533,316,061 The Dark Knight (2008)
318,298,180 Iron Man (2008)
317,011,114 Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008)
227,946,274 Hancock (2008)
223,808,164 WALL·E (2008)
215,395,021 Kung Fu Panda (2008)
191,465,414 Twilight (2008/I)
179,982,968 Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa (2008)
168,368,427 Quantum of Solace (2008)
154,529,187 Horton Hears a Who! (2008)


Top selling books- Okay, its got Twilight oberload *ugh* Again, Twilight is a new IP, and theres Harry Potter, but thats it.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news ... tles_N.htm
1 Twilight Stephenie Meyer
2 New Moon Stephenie Meyer
3 Breaking Dawn Stephenie Meyer
4 Eclipse Stephenie Meyer
5 A New Earth Eckhart Tolle
6 The Shack William P. Young
7 The Last Lecture Randy Pausch, Jeffrey Zaslow
8 The Tales of Beedle the Bard J.K. Rowling
9 Brisingr Christopher Paolini
10 The Appeal John Grisham
11 Eat, Pray, Love Elizabeth Gilbert
12 Three Cups of Tea Greg Mortenson, David Oliver Relin
13 The Audacity of Hope Barack Obama
14 The Host Stephenie Meyer
15 The Secret Rhonda Byrne
16 Marley & Me John Grogan
17 Diary of a Wimpy Kid: Rodrick Rules Jeff Kinney
18 The Story of Edgar Sawtelle: A Novel David Wroblewski
19 Eat This, Not That! David Zinczenko, Matt Goulding
20 Dreams From My Father Barack Obama

Top selling comics of 2008?
http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot. ... -2008.html
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=1 ... ge=article
1 Secret Invasion #1 (Marvel)
2 Secret Invasion #2 (Marvel)
3 Secret Invasion #3 (Marvel)
4 Secret Invasion #4 (Marvel)
5 Secret Invasion #5 (Marvel)
6 Secret Invasion #6 (Marvel)
7 Uncanny X-Men #500 (Marvel)
8 Secret Invasion #7 (Marvel)
9 Final Crisis #1 (DC)
10 Secret Invasion #8 (Marvel)
Heck, I can only find a top ten list, but even if I had a top 50 list and it'll show the exact same thing. Here's the total sales superiority-
MARVEL COMICS 45.82%
DC COMICS 31.67%
US comics depend like 80-90% (give-or take a few %) on old fucking IP. Wohoo, your hot writer whored out to make an interesting Wolverine story that the company doesnt give a shit and will let the next hot writer retcon, if thats creativity, than its no wonder american comics are in such a decline.

 

[Green_Lantern]

What is that from, New Mutants?

I think so. I have to find the whole page scan, it's pretty funny. Wolverine is basically babysitting the mystic-powered mutants. He's chasing someone, says that, then the girl there says "I hate this place."

did he killed the unicorns?

 

[JCM]

Man, that only reminds me how Fables turned out weak in the end.

Didn't know that DBZ ended. I stopped watching it after the Freiza stuff (catching it here and there), but I thought it kept going with DB GT or something. Or was that just the anime and the manga was totally creator written?

It ended 10 years back.

It had a great wacky manga, shitty anime, and after the Buu arc, it ended. The animation comic still had an extra year of rights, so they did the even more awful DragonballGT, and nothing more was made.

All mangas end. Sometimes they may get a special issue later once a year max, but all stories and regular comics end. As well as book series, tv shows, movie series and Chinese/Korean Manhua and French Bds.

Of course, there are exceptions (James Bond, Doreamon, Dr Who) but its the opposite to US comics where the exception is having a top-10 selling comic end, and the norm is to milk it out and split it into as many monthly titles as possible.

 

[Alucard]

Wait Indiana and the smurfing skull came in 3rd in movies 2008? how?

 

Because it was awesome? (Yeah, I know, I'm in the minority that felt that way.)

But yeah, honestly, JCM, I would much prefer the manga style of comics, which sounds a bit more like, say, Vertigo. Sadly, it won't happen, so I'll take what great stories I CAN get with the mythologies. Sometimes, they'll have a concrete ending for that particular creative team and you can jump off with a satisfying conclusion. It doesn't happen all the time, but it can happen.

You're right, though. In a perfect world, creator owned properties would have a specific end in mind, no matter how long their run with a character goes. It's why I won't read Fables any longer, because the planned end (which happened in Vol.11, defeating the Adversary, etc) is no longer the end because Willingham decided to just continue on with the series. Fortunately, there are some great self-contained series, most of them published by Vertigo that ending more than satisfyingly finale. Preacher, Y, Sandman, etc.

It's sad about that 2008 list, with nothing but giant events where "Nothing will ever be the same again!" (Yes, it will) and "Everything you know is a lie!" (until the next creative team undoes it)...and X-Men, which is the most muddled, confusing mess in comics, in my opinion.

 

[Shegokigo]

I just came in to add

"Fuck JCM and the negative opinion horse he came in on regarding Dragonball/Z/GT anime"

That is all. :smug:

 

[JCM]

Okay, fine, so one person liked GT.

Anyway, its not so much as I hate IPs, but I grew up in the 80s (where Marvel,DC were creating properties left and right while Dark Horse and other lables started), and the 90s (where image, valiant and the rest came along, and Vertigo was created).

Now post-2000, its all downhill.

 

I blame the fact that all they want to do (at least in DC's case) is bring back the Silver Age as much as humanly possible.

And Marvel has their heroes being near villainlike assholes (Tony Stark) or making deals with the devil (Spider-Man).

 

[Shegokigo]

Okay, fine, so one person liked GT.

Anyway, its not so much as I hate IPs, but I grew up in the 80s (where Marvel,DC were creating properties left and right while Dark Horse and other lables started), and the 90s (where image, valiant and the rest came along, and Vertigo was created).

Now post-2000, its all downhill.

GT was definitely lower quality than the rest of the series, but it gave me my Dragonball fix for 2 more seasons. Now all that can satiate me is the tidbits of info that are rarely leaked about the Dragonball MMO.

 

[@Li3n]

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

That sums up his argument right there.

Yeah, but Ratman, and his sidekick Gopher, the Boy-Rodent might be "original" IP, that doesn't make it actually different, now does it...

They're not necissarily the same stories being told over and over. Superman: Birthright, for example, was kind of like Marvel's Ultimate line, where they take the character back to its roots only as if they started today, instead.

Meh, that's about as new as Zorro in a 1930's urban setting, with murdered parents...

 

[JCM]

[quote="@Li3n":1yn0k9vm]If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

That sums up his argument right there.

Yeah, but Ratman, and his sidekick Gopher, the Boy-Rodent might be "original" IP, that doesn't make it actually different, now does it... [/quote:1yn0k9vm]Heh, looks like some hardcore Batman fans cant imagine anything but superheroes, guess you'd die in China and Japan, where everything from lawyer drama, horror to sci-fi and historical biographies are sold, and do well. From the number of ideas abeing tossed around in non-marvel/DC books for idiots, it seems that american comics can one day catch up to other media, if the fanboys would just stop taking "whatever hot writer to make the same shit sell by telling it from a different angle" up their arse and started buying something other than the same tired shit.

But then that would require also growing up and trying something new, imagine that, sci-fi, mystery, adventure, thriller, drama, comedy, and *GASP!* no tights. See how the Japanese manga, books and movies top 25 have diverse different titles, and taing any month's top 25 of comics has the same tired "Batman Superman Wolverine for the idiots"

You know, like we sued to in the 90s and 80s, when comics were more than just "Look its Superman and Spiderman over and over again". Even Ratman would be better than having an industry that depended on a bunch of idiots willing to put up with 10 bat books a month, and the joke of seeing them defend such a pathetic excuse for industry.

Thankfully the graphic novel market seems to be the last hope, with Y the Last Man, Watchmen and others normally outselling the usual old IPs.

 

[Silver Jelly]

GT doesn't exist, guys! DB is just a manga!




:smug: I'm cool.

 

[@Li3n]

Oh sorry JCM, that's all my fault for not saying Binbin and his friend Captain Habbock, being involved in all sorts of adventures....

Or Kandy Kandy being an orphan in victorian times....

But then almost no one would actually have fucking clue what i was talking about.

Not that strawmen aren't fun mind you.

 

[JCM]

Bla bla still defending 10 fucking batbooks a month blabla..

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

GT doesn't exist, guys! DB is just a manga!




:smug: I'm cool.

Pink is the new yellow.

And sorry Shego, but DBGT was terrible experiment, showing what happens when you try and treat manga properties like american comics and do anime without the creative vision behind the character.

 

[Shegokigo]

Again, I repeat, I am aware of it's quality, I was simply happy to get the storyline extended 2 more seasons. Could it have been better? Of course. Would I have preferred it to be better? Of course? Am I glad the new Dragonball MMO is going to forget GT ever existed in canon? Of course. Do I own Season 1 & 2 of GT? You betcha.

 

[wana10]

and dragonball kai is what? not whoring out a story that's already been done multiple times before?

 

[JCM]

and dragonball kai is what? not whoring out a story that's already been done multiple times before?

Actually, its the SAME cartoon, just in HD and with no filler episodes. ever heard the concept of reruns? Its like that, but at least with the decency to make it look good for HD-tv, instead of remaking yet another Dragonball cartoon, its as much milking as Blu-ray editions of movies and director cuts.

Now, if they made a new Dagonball over and over, every time changing the story lightly and the art direction, ala Spiderman, Batman or Xmen (hey, now theyre teenagers! Hey, now Wolverine is their leader!), then I´d call it milking, but its funny to see the desperation of the comic crowd defending overmilking by trying a cartoon and manga thats been over for a decade.

 

[kaykordeath]

Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

Or if it brings in new readers?

Should American Comic publishers cater to A) their long time readers, older fan base, who may not devote as much time to the hobby as they did in their teens B) new readers who may not care about and/or know the history/continuity or C) as many damn people as they can get books to because they're businesses trying to maximize their exposure?

Just because there are more and more titles out there, doesn't mean every last thing is for every last person.

I'd blame the mindset of the "completionist" collector than the publisher.