X-Men relationship chart

[JCM]

Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

No I didnt read the thread.

Are you dumb?

You had an industry wth millions in sales reduced to a few hundred thousand. Agressive marketing by the Big Two basically makes being an indepedent comic publisher very unprofitable, and not long-lasting.

Your industry´s only big sales come from old IP, which means new characters and IP will be hard to come by and be succesfull, and you sad nerds will still be stuck with Superman in your 50s, while book, manga, film and tv fans will have moved on to newer and better stuff every other year.

 

[kaykordeath]

See, but that's the thing...

I agree 110% that the industry is in the crapper.

What you're missing is that comic book readers don't move to magna because it's a different style/story and one I have zero interest in. Why would I want the comic book industry to be more like something ELSE.

The problem isn't in becoming more like something ELSE successful, but how to make it stronger on its own merits.

I'll freely admit, it may just a be a genrational thing. Comic books have had their time. The radio-as-entertainment industry had their shining moment, but no longer draws the millions they once did....comics probably never will again. It doesn't mean the quality of what is being put out now is that much worse than it used to be..simply the appeal of the quality.

The whole my "picture book with words" style" is better than yours is mind boggling to me.

 

[wana10]

a) the japanese comic structure lends itself to new stories
b) they still fall into some of the same problems of repetition that american comics do. (shonen hero has to learn new technique/unlock hidden power to defeat latest enemy, rinse, repeat. hell, last shonen manga i liked that had the hero use his WIS score rather than his STR score got canceled because of lack of readers. /me wants a better end to MX0 :tear: )
c) the strength of the american model lends itself to small contained stories without needing to set up new characters/worlds every time. one of my favourite comic stories ever is an 8 page two-face story that only worked because i already knew the two-face character.
d) japan has its institutions as well. detective conan, lupin III, fist of the north star, mazinger z, leiji matsumoto, etc etc etc


this comes from a fan of japanese comics and american comics(the smaller stories at least, i've never been much for the larger drawn out huge crossover things)

 

[SpecialKO]

Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

Or if it brings in new readers?

I'd say "no", if it brings in new readers, which it doesn't seem to be.

I'm not sure why so many folks are having problems parsing JCM's stance here.

I'm can't believe I'm actually defending him.

It's not his issue that Superman is based on Gladiator. It's that every couple of years, supes has issues with his powers, lois lane can't decide if she loves the "super" or the "man", some Big Bad named coincidentally-named "Zod" shows up with the same powerset, Luthor does something evil with a giant machine, DC advertises it as the greatest superman story ever with lasting, palpable changes that the Man of Steel will have to contend with, and then there's a crisis to retcon any lingering effects which could have lasting impact, and then they do it again in a couple years with a new author.

And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

Yeah, DB is a big media property, but it ended, and Goku went from a idiot kid to a grandfather throughout the course of the series, and do we really want to get into how many comics Jump Magazine was able to fund due to DB sales (please don't, JCM) that themselves turned into blockbusters?

 

[kaykordeath]

And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

It IS important, but I don't think it's THE key.

Because a 75 year old property still needs to be able to attract 12 year olds who have no idea who or what a "Zod" is. Or at least DC is scared to alienate these kids..which I agree IS a mistake.

I think it's why I enjoyed Final Crisis...it forced me to hit the web/Wiki to figure out who's who and what's what. But that is a risky business move.

I think JCM is making the right conclusion to the wrong argument. Yes, one industry is thriving while another is sputtering out...but I don't think it's the choice of IPs that has anything to do with it, nor the stories being told...I think it's a marketing/visibility/accessibility issue...but I'd wager that's a whole nother argument/thread...

 

[JCM]

But thats the main issue. Marvel and DC almost but all withdrew from the newspaper stands, which reduced orders and killed most smaller publishers that depended on that. Then Marvel and DC sided with diamond, which basically almost but all killed off anyone distributing elsewhere.

Theyve monopolised advertising, fandom mags, with many stores even selling just the big two´s comics, and distribution under Diamond favouring the two, I dont see it changing.
http://www.southparkbooks.com/ComicDistrib.html
Thank god for the graphic novel market and bookstores, and read below.

See, but that's the thing...

I agree 110% that the industry is in the crapper..

This is my point.

Yes, I know some people prefer things the same way. We´re a culture that buys Halo Wars, play the 500th Mario game and still go and see the latest James Bond movie.

But American comics (the monthly direct market) is going down, and losing steam fast, and its gonna just continue being a small subculture for people who want to read the latest Spiderman.

There is hope though, the graphic novels market. Take a look at last year´s graphic novel´s top ten-

2008 TOP 10 GRAPHIC NOVELS & TRADE PAPERBACKS
Quantity
Rank Description Price Publisher
1 WATCHMEN TP $19.99 DC Comics
2 BATMAN THE KILLING JOKE SPECIAL ED HC $17.99 DC Comics
3 JOKER HC $19.99 DC Comics
4 Y THE LAST MAN TP VOL 10 WHYS AND WHEREFORES $14.99 DC Comics
5 WALKING DEAD TP VOL 08 MADE TO SUFFER $14.99 Image Comics
6 BATMAN DARK KNIGHT RETURNS TP $14.99 DC Comics
7 FABLES TP VOL 10: THE GOOD PRINCE $17.99 DC Comics
8 WANTED GN $19.99 Image Comics
9 BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER SEASON 8 TP
VOL 02: NO FUTURE FOR YOU $15.95 Dark Horse Comics
10 Y THE LAST MAN TP VOL 01 UNMANNED $12.99 DC Comics

Aside From two great 80´s Batman stories (which were told without needing another monthly title, just a few issues), its pretty much a good reading list and a good show on american comics creativity.

Thats where the industry will shift, and where creativity will abound, and maybe US comics will be like the French BD, considered equals to books, qith rights to the same awards, sales and respect.

The newspaper stand comic is nearly dead, the direct market dying because of the Big Two´s overload, and graphic novels are the future.

 

[Frank]

No one I know buys single issue comics anymore. It could be because we are all older and don't have time to hit the comic stores every week to get our fill but I for one just normally order trades of things I'm interested in from Amazon. Be it Thunderbolts, Y, Invincible, Wolf-Man, Walking Dead, Fables (well I haven't read Fables in a while, seemed to lose interest after the whole adversary thing was dealt with) etc.

 

[SpecialKO]

And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

It IS important, but I don't think it's THE key.

Because a 75 year old property still needs to be able to attract 12 year olds who have no idea who or what a "Zod" is. Or at least DC is scared to alienate these kids..which I agree IS a mistake.

Of course, but when your solution to the continuity problem is to tell the same story over and over again while your sales plummet, you badly need a new solution.

One solution is to start writing new IP/stories which don't require 75 years of continuity to understand.

I think it's why I enjoyed Final Crisis...it forced me to hit the web/Wiki to figure out who's who and what's what. But that is a risky business move.

You're the first person I met who liked that aspect of FC. :tongue:

I think JCM is making the right conclusion to the wrong argument. Yes, one industry is thriving while another is sputtering out...but I don't think it's the choice of IPs that has anything to do with it, nor the stories being told...I think it's a marketing/visibility/accessibility issue...but I'd wager that's a whole nother argument/thread...

It's really both. Marvel and DC advertise their mainstream stories as much as they can, but sales suffer. The market is definitely out there, so the obvious conclusion is that they are failing to present their value proposition.

Part of that is getting the crap kicked out of them on volume; why spend $4 on a 32-page comic book issue with only 20 pages of actual story, 8 pages of ads, and 4 pages of sketch art, when you can spend $8 on a 200-page digest-comic with the same number of ads and sketch art that only require familiarity with a relative handful of similar volumes instead of 70 years of stuff.

It's not the "choice" of IPs that makes success or failure, it's a willingness to test new products. Invariably, the company that is able to test several products to keep finding new successes to exploit will last longer than the company that is either not able to or unwilling to. The product doesn't have to be a brand new concept; it can be the same concept, but with a notably different twist or feature that adds value; how much value is there in the same feature being touted as new and fresh every couple of years.

 

[JCM]

Nevermind, Marvel and DC arent dominating the graphic novel market, which is increasing more and more every year.
And thankfully, that market they cant monopolize with exclusive distribution and adverstising, because to a bookstore, Marvel and DC is just another publisher.

So it´ll have to evolve and try new IPs and genres like it did in the 70´s, or become as irrelevant as a rpg book publisher, with other media (books, tv and movies) and other comic industries (manga, manha, BDs, gibis) continuing to run laps around old mainstream superhero IPs.

 

[kaykordeath]

See, now that I can agree on...as well as your most recent post in the other thread. I've always been of the mindset that the wider the variety, the better...give ALL of the people what they want but don't try to cram everything that you HAVE down all the people...

But it begs the question to lob back at you:

Have you seen DC's Wednesday Comics?

To me, it seems like DC is at least becoming aware of their distribution fuck-ups and WISHING they could get back on the news-stands...

 

[sixpackshaker]

As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Comics are for kids.

There, I said it.

It holds especially true for the big name titles. They need the retreads every decade or so, so the young readers will know the background of their favorite heroes. Before the Superman reboot of 1986, Superman was tied to every story told about him for 50 years. It is kind of hard to hold true to all that canon. It was also hard to read. I think it would be better to flip the big titles more often. Keep them fresh and put minor spins on the great stories.

I bought Oliver Queen/Green Arrow "Quiver" story arch the other day. It told the story of how he came back to life, 10 years after his death. Which happened in the '90's then they all reminisced about Oliver and Hal Jordan palled around together a few years before... 20 years before, but treated all their hippy hugging into the late 80's or early 90's.

That would make all these 30 something heroes closer to 50 or 60.

Or the Bat-Cave with the 1940's giant penny and T-rex props...

Is Captain America still a WWII super hero that was dug up during the early 70's? and that his 80 year old teen side kick, that is filling in for him is some how in his 30's still.

It is good to clear out the canon more often than they do.

At least the Iron Man movie changed his background from a casualty of the Vietnam War to some nebulous action in the Middle East.

 

[Frank]

As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Comics are for kids.

There, I said it.

If you have kids, please buy them copies of Alan Moore's Lost Girls.

Just saying.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Alan Moore is running a monthly comic book? I thought he mostly did one-shots and prestige issues.

 

[Frank]

I was being a facetious ass. It's a book Moore did a few years ago about the sexual adventures of classic literary characters. Wendy from Peter Pan, Alice from Wonderland and Dorothy from Wizard of Oz to be more specific. I haven't read them myself (as as I understand, they are exceedingly rare) but there is some controversial material in them involving depictions of underage sex.

 

[Bowielee]

I understand the arguments being made about properties being stale, but on the other hand, just because a story is a rehash of something that's already been done doesn't mean it can't be good.

 

[JCM]

But when its 90% what the two biggest publishers who have over 90% of the market publish, it shows just how small and irrelevant the industry has become.

On Wednesday comics, that will give some newstand sales, the only place where they can expand back to. And hopefully it´ll be the the next "Dark Horse presents", which launched most successful DH franchises and gave much money and even movie studio attention to DH.

The direct market, created by the investor craze, is ever diminishing. The number of people buying monthly Batman/Superman is ever decreasing.

The graphic novel market? A movie might drive sales, but there theyre competing with countless others genres, as well as millions of books.

As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Too many old superhero comic are for kids.

Corrected that for you.

 

[sixpackshaker]

The emphasis on adult themed limited stories seemed to help kill the comics industry. DC and Marvel were doing fine before the bubble started. The prestige format like The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen drove a short period of less than a decade of booming sales. Comic titles never learned to find its way in the glut of entertainment aimed at children.

The bread and butter needs to be recurring sales, to kids. It should be the bigger market, because there is no stigma related to kids reading comics. Tell adventurous stories of good and evil, and kids will read. Don't dumb it down for kids, children know when that is happening.

In normal fiction JK Rowling found a great formula, start with books easy enough for kids to get into and with enough depth that it will hold the adult audience, and then age the character and have the title grow in subject matter over the years. Then end it.

That is what Batman, Superman and X-men should be doing. Start over, go simple and elegant, then age the comic with your target audience, when they start to falter, start over.

Adult comic readers are a rare and fading breed. We were never enough to keep the industry afloat, and many have left do to other priorities.

A comic title (recurring titles) should not be trying to please a 25 to 45 year old man. The target audience should start at 10 to 15 and then grow for ten years.

 

[Frank]

It's kind of funny how that's pretty much antithetic to how the rest of the world views comics.

 

[Bowielee]

It's kind of funny how that's pretty much antithetic to how the rest of the world views comics.

Different cultures view things in different ways?

The HELL you say.

Comics isn't the only industry where the same things are being drug out time and again. The same thing happens with TV shows, movies, etc...

I think it's part of the american culture in general.

 

[JCM]

Adult comic readers are a rare and fading breed. We were never enough to keep the industry afloat, and many have left do to other priorities.

Bullshit, havent you been reading? Read the sales.

Graphic novel sales are increasing. Adult readers, not the sad pathetic blob going to a "comic" store, but the man who goes to a bookstore and gets a graphic novel along with other books, has been rising, from non-existence in the 90s to nearly 50% of total sales, with non-superhero getting more slots in the top ten. Kiddie/fanboys who buy 10 shitty wolverine titles are decreasing.

The emphasis on adult themed limited stories seemed to help kill the comics industry.

Again BS.

Remeber Xmen, the one with the tin foil cover? Thatw as basically the harbinger of image, variant covers, 5-6 books of the same team/character (whereas before they got by with 2 max). Then when the investor market failed, Marvel and dc, instead of going back to the 80s mix of new and old IP and newstand sales, killed off the competition by distributing ONLY with Diamond, thus killing off competition, and monopolizing the direct sale (aka the idiotic comic stores for nerds that didnt exist before).

What US comics need is to kill the direct market, put kiddie/Superhero comics all back to the newstands where kids buy them. And make more adult comics for the bookstores, because thats where US comics are shining, and will shine.

 

[Shegokigo]

I don't think sixpack is in touch with the current market of comics vs graphic novels. His point of view seems very early/mid nineties.

 

I'm fully in support of a growing graphic novel/trade paperback market. I made a complaint to DC that the original set up for the Final Crisis collection would make no sense (or, you know, LESS sense) to the average buyer because if you go by just the main #1-7 series, there's a villain that shows up out of nowhere in the last issue. To know who he is, you'd have to have read Superman Beyond #1-2, which was then changed to be included in the collection.

That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

 

[Shegokigo]

That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

Video games killed the comic book star....

 

[Silver Jelly]

That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

Video games kill the comic book star....

Don't worry. They'll get better.

 

[@Li3n]

Bla bla still defending 10 fucking batbooks a month blabla..

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Man, you're so right, that story would be so much better if only they just used other, unrelated to previous characters, names in it...

Kinda like taking the Monkey King from Journey to the West, giving him Superman's origin, but with a "evil race" twist, and then after the King Picollo saga just repeating the same pattern in the story over and over.... Frieza was at least justified by the filling in of the backstory... even as a kid i thought that everything that came after was unnecessary.

Or giving Huckleberry Finn stretching powers and putting him in a pirate world [ i admit, my Lore (pirate literature) skill isn't very high ].

The problem with american comics are plenty, old IP whoring being more of a symptom then a cause...

Graphic novel sales are increasing.

Alan Moore is a cranky ol' nutso, but i have to agree with him that calling them graphic novels is wankery designed to make people feel better that they're buying comics... which shouldn't be needed if they stood on their own in your mind...

 

[Green_Lantern]

That is some sick fetish comic. :tumbleweed:

 

[Shegokigo]

I actually hear that Mouse Guard is well written and has amazing art.

 

[@Li3n]

Why would that guarantee it's not a sick fetish comic?!

 

[Green_Lantern]

Why would that guarantee it's not a sick fetish comic?!

She never said it wasn't

 

[@Li3n]

She used "actually"....

 

[Green_Lantern]

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

 

[Shegokigo]

She used "actually"....

Due to most sick fetish comics not having good art/story. :slywink:

 

[@Li3n]

as i was explaining to GL...

 

[AshburnerX]

I actually hear that Mouse Guard is well written and has amazing art.

It is indeed. I have the Mouse Guard: Fall 1152 hardback (which is where that scene takes place) and it's easily one of my favorite new IPs and one of the most well drawn comics I've seen in a long time. It's basically Redwall, set in the Dark Ages, with characters that don't fuck around. I'm going to be getting the Mouse Guard: Winter 1152 hardback as soon as it comes out.

 

[JCM]

Man, I need to read the mouse guard.

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

Laugh all you want, but it seems I cant even remember the GL oath. :tear: