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Like a cell phone in a bomb shelter, I don't get signals (dating advice)

Sep 18, 2011#1

Norris

BACKGROUND
So the other night, I was hanging out with three female friends of mine. The gal whose wedding I performed (we'll call her Mrs. M) and her two roommates, to be specific. I have hung out with them like five times since school started back up this month. One of the two roommates is single. I met her last year, only a few months after getting dumped, and I was...not my best. I've trying to make up for that first impression by bringing the three of them fresh baked cookies almost every time I come visit. Seems to have worked.

Anyhow, single girl is a nerd. She's a big Doctor Who fan, loves Firefly, had read Snow Crash, digs Star Trek, loved X-Men First Class, reads TV Tropes, etc. To show how off my game I was when I met her, those are all things I'm in to and NONE OF IT came up in the hours her, Mrs. M, and I spent hanging out.

THE POSSIBLE SIGNAL
While Mrs. M and Roomie-With-A-Boyfriend were off in their own little conversation, Single Roomie and I were talking. We were at the movie theater, seeing a midnight show of Pulp Fiction, and there was a Twilight poster outside the theater, so we were discussing that. I mentioned that my ex was a Twihard and a Gleek, and that I thought I could do better going forward. She agreed...and then she said what I needed to do was find a really nerdy girl to ask out.

THE FRIDGE LOGIC
She coslays. She watches Doctor Who. Earlier that night, she borrowed a BUNCH of my DCnU #1s (9/16). She owns Firefly on DVD. I referred to "thought viruses" on the drive home and she asked if I had read Snow Crash.

THE QUESTION
WAS THAT A SIGNAL? Or just friendly advice?

REASONS FOR DOUBT

Mrs. M is on record as saying that she can not, under any circumstance, picture me and Single Roomie dating. Seeing as Mrs. M is one of my most level headed friends, I take her opinion as next to gospel.
The aforementioned horrible first impression.
While not being obsessed and depressing, I haven't exactly been smooth and confident around her neither.
The self esteem issues that render next to unable to understand signals.

So Dave (and anyone else who wants to weigh in)...signal or no?

Sep 18, 2011#2

Charlie Don't Surf

yeah, ask her out, dummy

Sep 18, 2011#3

Norris

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah, ask her out, dummy

Dude, I look like this

,

own the complete Prince filmography, sleep under a vintage Masters of the Universe bedsheet and buy $40 a week (or more) in comics. I'm not usually having girls give me a first look, much less a second.

EDIT: Also, this is a piece of advice nearly every female friend I have has given me. Except Single Roommate was the first who was both 1) Single and 2) not my little sister.

Sep 18, 2011#4

Dave

She's giving signals. Take the hint, man up, and ask her out.

Sep 18, 2011#5

Norris

Dave said:
She's giving signals. Take the hint, man up, and ask her out.

Fair enough. I'm not going to ask her on a date date just yet...but she's an art student and a city wide art exhibition/contest starts on Wednesday. I wanna check it out this weekend. Mrs. M has people coming in from out of town and is therefore unavailable. Ask her to join me and see how things play out.

stienman said:
Who cares if she may or may not have been giving a signal? Ask her out anyway!

Duh.

I would like to keep the possibility of awkwardness with my best friend's roommate, whom she hopes to continue living with after she graduates until her husband's stint in the Navy is over (if feasible), to a minimum, thankyouverymuch.

Sep 18, 2011#6

Chad Sexington

The thing about confidence is: fake it til you make it.

It seems silly (and circular), almost irritatingly so, but pretending you're more confident/comfortable than you are can give you that very confidence.

Sep 18, 2011#7

Espy

Dave said:
She's giving signals. Take the hint, man up, and ask her out.

Yup.
Added at: 19:44

Chad Sexington said:
The thing about confidence is: fake it til you make it.

It seems silly (and circular), almost irritatingly so, but pretending you're more confident/comfortable than you are can give you that very confidence.

Yup. Lost of people you think are so super confident? Not as confident as you think they are.

Sep 18, 2011#8

Chad Sexington

Norris said:
I would like to keep the possibility of awkwardness with my best friend's roommate, whom she hopes to continue living with after she graduates until her husband's stint in the Navy is over (if feasible), to a minimum, thankyouverymuch.

I hate to sound critical, but you're rebuking him for not knowing information you didn't give us in the first place..... It also sounds like an excuse not to do it. If you're just to hesitant to ask, that's the problem to overcome, don't find other reasons (the time's not right, I don't have a good date-plan, future awkwardness, what if she's a long-lost first cousin I'd better wait for that DNA test...) because you'll always find a good reason not to do something.

Sep 18, 2011#9

figmentPez

Norris said:
I would like to keep the possibility of awkwardness with my best friend's roommate, whom she hopes to continue living with after she graduates until her husband's stint in the Navy is over (if feasible), to a minimum, thankyouverymuch.

If you're polite, I don't see any reason for awkwardness.

Sep 18, 2011#10

strawman

Norris said:
I would like to keep the possibility of awkwardness with my best friend's roommate, whom she hopes to continue living with after she graduates until her husband's stint in the Navy is over (if feasible), to a minimum, thankyouverymuch.

To be blunt, you're not worth getting awkward over. Ask her out. Regardless of the outcome, it only becomes awkward if you find out she's your sister, or if you decide to let it become awkward. She's just a person. You're just a person. You can relate on multiple levels if you so choose., and go up and down the levels without jeopardizing the other levels.

Unless she does turn out to be your sister.

AWWWKWARD...

Sep 18, 2011#11

Shegokigo

Note: Women don't leave their "interest window" open very long. If we hint once or twice, you don't bite? We actually completely lost interest in you in "that way". Do not think that taking your time increases you chances. It's a mistake ALOT of rookies make. We know right away whether we're interested or not. The actions/words you do after that first impression, will either slightly increase our interest or massively decrease it. Hit while the iron's hot.

Sep 18, 2011#12

Norris

Last nerdy girl I asked out, and I swear on a stack of comics that I didn't do anything super creepy, blocked me on Facebook and never spoke to me again. So yeah. Don't want that, or anything remotely LIKE that, to happen with my best friend's roomie.

But I'm not using it as an excuse to not ask her out (or at least, to not try and spend some time with her 1 on 1). I'm saying it is the reason I'd like to be reasonably confident she'd at least not be offended by my advances before escalating to "let me take you to a movie, hold your hand, pay for everything, and maybe get a good night kiss when I drop you off".

Yes, I'm old fashioned about dating.

Sep 18, 2011#13

Espy

Yup. Call her/stop by tomorrow and be like, "Hey, *insert geeky movie* is playing tomorrow night. Interested in going with me? Maybe grabbing dinner and drinks after?"

BAM. Stay cool and confident and don't sweat it if she says no. It's one girl.
Added at: 20:00
*if someone gets offended by being asked out they are a dumbass and you are better off without them. If you aren't being creepy or weird and not acting like you are going to lock her in your basement with a bottle of lotion then she can't be upset. Even if she says no.

STOP OVER THINKING IT. STOP IT.

Sep 18, 2011#14

Jay

I'll be short and sweet. Use the following golden ticket phrase the next time you speak to her (alone) :

"Ok, this has been bothering me all night.... but what was Jane's favorite gun's name?"

(wait for her to answer - the answer is Vera)

If she gets it right :

"Wow. (chuckle and shake your head lightly) Heh... you're something else. Why did I know you'd know this? (smile) It's been far too long that I haven't watched Firefly. I need to do something about that."

(wait for her to answer)

"I say next weekend we should pop in the DVD, order in some food and have some fun."

(take it from here)

If she gets it wrong :

Ignore her, she's not worth your time.

Seriously though, you need to ask her out, if she gets it wrong simply state,

"Finally, I'm not alone to be tormented by this question. (perform a comical small evil laugh)"

"It's been far too long that I haven't watched Firefly. I need to do something about that."

"I say next weekend we should pop in the DVD, order in some food and have some fun."

Sep 18, 2011#15

Espy

Watch this. Now.

Sep 18, 2011#16

Shegokigo

Norris said:
But I'm not using it as an excuse to not ask her out (or at least, to not try and spend some time with her 1 on 1). I'm saying it is the reason I'd like to be reasonably confident she'd at least not be offended by my advances before escalating to "let me take you to a movie, hold your hand, pay for everything, and maybe get a good night kiss when I drop you off".

Yes, I'm old fashioned about dating.

You're old fashioned about it? We aren't in those times anymore. I mean that with just honest respect.

By the time you're reasonably confident, she'll have reasonably put you in the "good friend" state of mind. It's very very rare that a girl will pine for a guy, for a good long while, till he asks her out. 99% of the time, it's the other way around. Difference being that the guy will still be interested, she, won't.

-- I'm not saying charge at her like Rhino stamping the ground, throwing dust in the air, horn waving like a phallic symbol. I'm saying that after 2 real "hang outs" if you haven't tried to see if she really is interested, she probably won't be by the third.

Sep 18, 2011#17

Espy

And make sure she KNOWS it's a date.

None of this bullshit hey lets hang out and do something crap.

If the words "let met take you" or "will you go with me to" or something along those lines aren't in it you have a problem.

Sep 18, 2011#18

Terrik

Shego speaks the truth and it's been my experience too. When I was younger, I missed so many opportunities waiting for that 'perfect moment' that never came because nothing in my mind would ever convince me that it would be the right moment because of my own nervousness and lack of confidence.

Sep 18, 2011#19

strawman

Shegokigo said:
I'm not saying charge at her like Rhino stamping the ground, throwing dust in the air, horn waving like a phallic symbol.

I'm glad I got married when that technique still worked...

Sep 18, 2011#20

Norris

OK, please take this down a notch, OK? I'm asking for fucking advice, not fucking orders. Until Friday night I wasn't even sure this girl thought of me as a friend, so this seems like an illogical fucking leap to me. Apparently this shit is easy for everyone else but I have a hard fucking time believing people want to see me platonicly, much less fucking romantically. You guys are at a six. I need you at about a four.

My plan here is to ask her to go check out ArtPrize with me. If she says yes to that, we can talk and hang out and if it goes well I will ask her out THEN. If she says "no", or brings the other roomie, or whatever, then she likely ISN'T INTERESTED. While the window can shut quickly (I know a girl who waited a year to win her man, though I'm not naive enough to presume such a thing would happen here), it is not like I see this girl every day, or even every fucking week. It can wait a contactless day or two.

Besides, I HAVE BEEN ALREADY BEHAVING LIKE A RESIDENT OF THE FRIEND ZONE EVERY TIME I'VE SEEN HER. And for me, that means being incredibly open about my MANY unattractive self esteem issues, my positively filthy sense of humor, etc. I've even managed to accidentally say insensitive things about adoption (she's adopted) several times. I HAVE BEEN OAFISH is what I'm saying. So yeah. Every rule in the book of attracting people, I HAVE BROKEN IN HER PRESENCE. No part of this makes sense. However, as I said, this is the kind of advice all my friends (80% of whom are female) have given me with the unspoken "who isn't me" at the end of it.

@Shego - I meant I am old fashioned in that I expect to and require that I assume the complete financial burden of an evening out, expect nothing more than a good night peck until the third date, and don't consider something a "relationship" until the third date. Most people I know go dutch, fuck the first time they hang out, and call it a "relationship".

Sep 18, 2011#21

Shegokigo

Well then, disregard all my advice, and best of luck. :popcorn:

Sep 18, 2011#22

Norris

Thanks. I do want to thank you guys for giving advice. Really. But it is a massive fucking breakthrough on my part that I would even pick up that the juxtaposition could maybe have been a signal in the first place. It took me like a month and a half to figure my ex dug me and she had a friend come up to me and ask if I liked her (so fucking high school, that was).

It is also important to note that the time she said this was pretty much the first time we had had a two way conversation this year. At all.

Sep 18, 2011#23

Espy

Norris said:
My plan here is to ask her to go check out ArtPrize with me. If she says yes to that, we can talk and hang out and if it goes well I will ask her out THEN. If she says "no", or brings the other roomie, or whatever, then she likely ISN'T INTERESTED.

Thats pretty much perfect man. No one was giving you orders FYI, just saying, don't be afraid to step out a bit, even if it makes you uncomfortable. It's not easy for anyone when they first get into the dating game to ask people out, hell it's not easy for most people even after they've done it 10 or 20 times. The real trick is acting like you aren't super nervous even though you are.

Sep 18, 2011#24

phil

My best advice is to don't do anything. Friendships like these are forever and you'll never regret doing nothing for the possibility of what could have been.

Plus what if she said no? That might be awkward. AWKWARD! No one ever gets over those feelings. Like, ever.

Nah man, you should just wait for the right woman to find you. Hang in there, baby!

Sep 18, 2011#25

Norris

phil said:
My best advice is to don't do anything. Friendships like these are forever and you'll never regret doing nothing for the possibility of what could have been.

Plus what if she said no? That might be awkward. AWKWARD! No one ever gets over those feelings. Like, ever.

Nah man, you should just wait for the right woman to find you. Hang in there, baby!

See, the sarcasm here would be funnier if I hadn't lost a friend once already in the last year because I dared to ask her out. Asked a girl I got along with great on a date. She said no. She then blocked me on FB and has refused to speak to me since. So yeah. If that happened with this girl, I wouldn't be able to comfortably visit my best friend's apartment ever again (I may have performed her wedding, but she has to live with her roomie). This is a real worry in my world. It is (very remotely) like how I think about parents' deaths. To most 20-somethings, it is something that is going to happen a long time from now and they don't have to think about. For me, it is something that has happened once already and I should kind of plan for should the worst happen.

@Espy - thanks.

Sep 18, 2011#26

Jay

Subtlety is key in your approach.

Sep 18, 2011#27

Norris

As an aside, the girl who never spoke to me again ended up making me more confident. Reminded me that not every rejection feels like being dumped after a 2.5 year relationship.

EDIT: New advice. I was thinking of asking her why she's been single for three years as subtle way of divining the situation. If she asks why I ask or what I mean (which seems likely), I tell her (honestly) that since she's a good looking woman who is basically a nerdy dream girl, I assumed it was by choice (her last break up was baaaad). Good idea or bad idea?

Sep 18, 2011#28

Chad Sexington

My gut says bad. Then she gets to think about a bad breakup before you ask her out. Not the best footing.

Sep 18, 2011#29

Norris

How about "I have a question for you - you look fantastic, you're a nerdy dream girl, how are you still single?"

Sep 18, 2011#30

Espy

That makes her think of her flaws and why she is still single.

Just ask her out man. Don't try and set yourself up I promise, it will come out awkward. Set ups just happen. She'll say she loves x kind of food and you say, hey! I love to cook x kind of food. Can I make you dinner at my place tomorrow? Maybe we can watch that firefly marathon after?
Then you go home and learn to cook that kind of food FAST.

Sep 18, 2011#31

Tress

Stop making this so damn complicated. Just ask her out.

Sep 18, 2011#32

Norris

I don't eat and my place is a bedroom with a kitchenette and bathroom, but I see your point.

Sep 18, 2011#33

strawman

Norris said:
I was thinking of asking her why she's been single

Don't be stupid, stupid.

Edit: My wife just hit me on the head and told me not to call people names. Sorry.

But it's still a stupid idea.

Sep 18, 2011#34

Jay

I would never go with that approach. You're simply opening a huge can of worms with that.

It'll put her on the spot firstly, she'll know your intention in a less than desirable way and lastly you may not really want to know why. A lot of women don't feel like selling themselves why that question is a fact. They'll try to dress it and most likely lie to your face, they'll probably look annoyed as they'll basically take that as "What is wrong with you?". Don't ask me WHY, but that's what happens. Women are strange beasts.

Some may get defensive on that approach and it's as direct a question you're unlikely to know that it truly is. Some snarky ones may even think your question is stupid and nosy.

Sep 18, 2011#35

Charlie Don't Surf

actually on second thought, if you unironically say stuff like "friend zone", don't ask her out and stay home and read about the ladder theory and wait for a better opportunity for another 60 years until you die

Sep 18, 2011#36

Norris

Charlie Don't Surf said:
actually on second thought, if you unironically say stuff like "friend zone", don't ask her out and stay home and read about the ladder theory and wait for a better opportunity for another 60 years until you die

Oh fuck off. I'm not the person who brought up the concept (Shego did) and there is, in my experience, a certain point where a close friend of the opposite sex ceases to be seen as a member of the opposite sex. I love Mrs. M, and she loves me, but it ain't romantic love and we just plain don't think of each other in that way. I did once, but now I don't. It is the point where they become a member of your chosen family, your "tribe" if you will. It had nothing to do with any "Nice Guy (TM)" bullshit. To me, the friend zone is a mutually agreed upon zone, albeit often an unspoken one.

On that note, I asked if she wanted to join me for ArtPrize. As a great man once said, "here...we...GO!"*

*I am awkwardly proud that I just referenced two comic book movies in one sentence.

Sep 19, 2011#37

figmentPez

Norris said:
How about "I have a question for you - you look fantastic, you're a nerdy dream girl, how are you still single?"

This is how I would change that, "I have a question for you - you look fantastic, you're a nerdy dream girl, would you like to go out to dinner sometime?"

Sep 19, 2011#38

LordRendar

If im Interested in a woman I wont even let it get close to the friend zone. Recieve signals?Pah.I be sending em like a castaway on a deserted Island when a plane passes by.I let a woman know im interested in her and make it stick.Then ask her out and let nature take her course.As Shego so wisely said, women know at the very beginning if they are interested in you or not and they wont run after you if you dont show any interest in them.

Sep 19, 2011#39

ThatNickGuy

It's very simple, man.

Next time you see her, drop trou and ask, "So, how about it?"

But seriously, instead of making a big deal about asking her out on a date, just invite her out for something. Don't even call it a date. Just ask in a way that you'd ask a friend to hang out. Just the two of you. See a movie together. Do some sort of nerdy activity together. Don't think of it as a date, just hanging out with a friend. Maybe somewhere in there, you slyly joke that her boyfriend must be pissed that she's out with some dude. Might be a bit over-the-head obvious, but it's better than simply asking if she's single or something.

Sep 19, 2011#40

Chibibar

Ask her out. She is hinting you (that is what Mrs. C said)

Sep 19, 2011#41

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
It's very simple, man.

Next time you see her, drop trou and ask, "So, how about it?"

Oddly enough, that is the advice another message board gave me, just as seriously.

Though I am starting to worry. She's been on FB multiple times since I messaged her about ArtPrize. No response. Don Quixote may be tilting at another windmill.

Sep 19, 2011#42

Espy

Never, ever ask somebody to something over Facebook if you want a reply quickly.

Always face to face. No texting, no emailing, no Facebook.

Face. To. Face.

Sep 19, 2011#43

Jay

I completely agree.

Sep 19, 2011#44

Norris

I'm sure that the in person approach would work more quickly. It is, however, unfeasible in this situation.

Sep 19, 2011#45

Biannoshufu

Norris said:
How about "I have a question for you - you look fantastic, you're a nerdy dream girl, how are you still single?"

I have a sack of testicles I keep in the fridge. If you keep delaying i'm going to give you a pair. JFDIA

face to face. Prefferably with a nicely groomed appearance.

Sep 19, 2011#46

Espy

Norris said:
I'm sure that the in person approach would work more quickly. It is, however, unfeasible in this situation.

You don't have her number yet? If not then get it from your friend. Facebook is the WORST way next to texting to get accurate information or ask a question of someone.

Sep 19, 2011#47

Norris

Amorous Eyes said:
How is that an illogical step? It can often be much harder to go from friend to romantic interest rather than simply from "some guy I met the other day."

Let me rephrase - I was not sure she did anything more than tolerate me as a favor to her roommate.

That is rarely the way make a girl swoon over you.

I know, hence my confusion. When i met her, I was still deep in a funk from being dumped and undoubtedly came off as weird and depressing (as opposed to usual my weird and somewhat charming). When I began hanging out at the apartment, well the the residents are my (very married) best friend, her happily dating a guy roommate, and roommate who met me while I was in a funk. So I kinda decided "screw it" and set myself to "I'm not trying to impress anyone" mode.

Espy said:
You don't have her number yet? If not then get it from your friend. Facebook is the WORST way next to texting to get accurate information or ask a question of someone.

I dunno man, I'm from the facebook/texting generation. That's like...90% of how the people I know communicate and I have never had a problem using FB. Since she hasn't given me her number (and it just seems rude to ask Mrs. M for it), the apartment is three miles away through the heart of downtown, and I have no logical reason to go there, Facebook it is.

Sep 19, 2011#48

Norris

Amorous Eyes said:
So you showed your true self? Awesome! Beats faking some cardboard persona just to try and make yourself appear different than you truly are.

Showed my true self, did nothing to hide my crippling insecurities and dirty sense of humor, either or.

Oh, and if this ArtPrize thing falls through because you didn't get an answer of her in time, nothing is lost. Just ask her out when you first see her. Though please do this face to face, not texting or Facebook, really.

ArtPrize is a three and a half week long art exhibition that stretches through the entire city and has venues as close to me as across the street. I *think* I can manage to put something together.

Now, if only it weren't my favorite classes that were in the afternoons. Otherwise I could just ditch and make planning even easier.

Sep 19, 2011#49

Ravenpoe

Do you have her number?

Text her. "When can I tap that?"

Sep 19, 2011#50

strawman

Norris said:
Since she hasn't given me her number (and it just seems rude to ask Mrs. M for it)

"Hey, I want to ask your friend out. Do you have her number?"

It's not rude. It's the truth. Mrs. M will let you know if she thinks she shouldn't give the girl's number out. Guess what? The girl hasn't given it to you because you've never asked! It's not as though the number is secret and specifically being hidden from you. If she declines to give it to you - no skin off your back. You understand that sometimes people aren't sure they should give out other people's numbers, and you can simply say, "I understand," and await the facebook message that will never come.

Further, telling the friend that you are interested, even if she doesn't give you the number, will give you a lot of information, and further your express interest will probably reach the girl's ear.

I guess I just don't see the point to walking on eggshells.

Quite frankly if these people are that easy to break, you must be stressed out all the time you interact with them.

They're just people. They want to have fun, same as you. Be assertive, confident, and direct, and magically they'll tell you what they like and don't like.

Sep 19, 2011#51

SpecialKO

EDIT: Bah, can't embed to the right time.

First of all, ask her the hell out. That was practically a bat-signal for "ask me out!!!"

Second, IMO, it's much more important that you suggest something specific with a time/date than how you contact her. Asking to go "do something sometime" will get you turned down even by a girl who is chasing you like a lava flow.

Sep 19, 2011#52

Shegokigo

Norris said:
I dunno man, I'm from the facebook/texting generation. That's like...90% of how the people I know communicate and I have never had a problem using FB. Since she hasn't given me her number (and it just seems rude to ask Mrs. M for it), the apartment is three miles away through the heart of downtown, and I have no logical reason to go there, Facebook it is.

Wait, I thought you were an old school romantic? I'm confused.

Damnit I promised myself I wouldn't post in this thread again till the "aftermath" but I just had to mention that.

Sep 19, 2011#53

David

Norris said:
See, the sarcasm here would be funnier if I hadn't lost a friend once already in the last year because I dared to ask her out. Asked a girl I got along with great on a date. She said no. She then blocked me on FB and has refused to speak to me since.

I don't know if this has been addressed, can't read the whole thread until later, but this is NOT a normal reaction to being asked out. Either you're omitting something creepy you did or the girl you asked out was fucked up. Don't let this point have any bearing whatsoever on your decision.

Sep 19, 2011#54

Tress

David said:
I don't know if this has been addressed, can't read the whole thread until later, but this is NOT a normal reaction to being asked out. Either you're omitting something creepy you did or the girl you asked out was fucked up. Don't let this point have any bearing whatsoever on your decision.

This. A thousands times over.

Sep 19, 2011#55

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Wow. Quite the discussion over a simple act of asking someone on a date. You're putting the pussy on a pedestal ya know.

Sep 19, 2011#56

Chibibar

sometime the best approach is the honest approach. Don't think too much, you will scare yourself silly and probably make a situation worst than it really is. A simple "Do you want to go out on a date with me?" is straight forward as it gets.

Don't worry about she saying yes or no. Men are not mind readers. If you worry too much she might say no, you are gonna talk yourself out of it.

Sep 19, 2011#57

Biannoshufu

Chibibar said:
sometime the best approach is the honest approach. Don't think too much, you will scare yourself silly and probably make a situation worst than it really is. A simple "Do you want to go out on a date with me?" is straight forward as it gets.

Don't worry about she saying yes or no. Men are not mind readers. If you worry too much she might say no, you are gonna talk yourself out of it.

this, a million times this.

Sep 19, 2011#58

strawman

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
Wow. Quite the discussion over a simple act of asking someone on a date. You're putting the pussy on a pedestal ya know.

Shhhhh! Growing someone a new pair takes time, and the process is easily upset.

Sep 19, 2011#59

Chibibar

(weird my last reply didn't post)
I say go up to her and ask her. "How about a date just you and me?" simple, straight forward and to the point.
If you worry too much, you are gonna talk yourself out of it. Men are not mind readers, but we tend to "overthink/analyze" the situation. Just do it.

Sep 19, 2011#60

ThatNickGuy

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
You're putting the pussy on a pedestal

Sounds like my prom night.

Sep 19, 2011#61

ThatGrinningIdiot!

ThatNickGuy said:
Sounds like my prom night.

You must've had one of the most horrifying, yet interesting prom nights in the history of halforums. :O

Sep 19, 2011#62

Norris

David said:
I don't know if this has been addressed, can't read the whole thread until later, but this is NOT a normal reaction to being asked out. Either you're omitting something creepy you did or the girl you asked out was fucked up. Don't let this point have any bearing whatsoever on your decision.

I found out later that she is so phobic of sex that the idea of doing anything that could remotely lead to sex freaks her the fuck out. By "remotely lead to", I mean "hug".

And Mrs. M is on record as being completely and utterly unable to picture in her mind Me and Mads together, she's also not a big fan of me going in directions that lead to heartache, so yeah.

They do have my business card with cell phone number up on the fridge, so if she wanted to call me, she could.

Sep 19, 2011#63

strawman

Norris said:
I found out later that she is so phobic of sex...

And Mrs. M is ... not a big fan of ... heartache.

Lives lead by fear are [insert pithy statement here].

Sounds like you need to start looking outside your normal* group.

If you didn't bring up the subject of dating this other girl, though, and Mrs. M made that comment out of the blue, chances are good the girl is sending signals, and Mrs. M is furiously trying to keep things so that she is comfortable. After all, she'll be happier if you all remain friends than if something disrupts it, even if there's a good chance something better might come of it.

As others pointed out, don't let your experience with asking the crazy chick out color your expectations for future encounters. Quite frankly she did you a favor - if it was that easy to get rid of the crazy ones, men of the world of over would rejoice.

*abnormal

Sep 19, 2011#64

Norris

stienman said:
If you didn't bring up the subject of dating this other girl, though, and Mrs. M made that comment out of the blue, chances are good the girl is sending signals, and Mrs. M is furiously trying to keep things so that she is comfortable. After all, she'll be happier if you all remain friends than if something disrupts it, even if there's a good chance something better might come of it.

Naw, it was a few months back and I used her as a hypothetical. She said the hypothetical was invalid because she could not ever see the scenario happening.

As others pointed out, don't let your experience with asking the crazy chick out color your expectations for future encounters. Quite frankly she did you a favor - if it was that easy to get rid of the crazy ones, men of the world of over would rejoice.

Fair enough.

Sep 19, 2011#65

strawman

Norris said:
Naw, it was a few months back and I used her as a hypothetical. She said the hypothetical was invalid because she could not ever see the scenario happening.

Oh shoot, discard that right now. "Dating advice" has a half life of 3.2 weeks nevermind months. People change quite a bit, and more frequently, than you'd think.

Don't base your decisions on a short convo you had with someone months ago.

Besides, if she's a good friend, even if she thinks it will only end in heartache, she'll help you take the leap anyway. The worst that can happen is you'll have the same conversation again, only this time it won't be hypothetical. And that's not going to hurt anyone, is it?

Sep 19, 2011#66

ThatNickGuy

Have you asked Mrs. M recently about the idea?

Sep 19, 2011#67

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Have you asked Mrs. M recently about the idea?

Well, the problem is that I asked if the other roommate was single a couple weeks ago. I'm afraid it will look like I'm just desperate.

Sep 19, 2011#68

Officer_Charon

No... honestly, it'll sound like you're curious and interested... sort of like you actually are.

Sep 19, 2011#69

SpecialKO

Did she say that she "couldn't picture it" or that she actually thinks that "it's a horrible idea"?

If it's the first, just go for it, because it means she's unimaginative when it comes to you dating.

If it's the second, just go for it, because you're too much of a man to take her negative advice.

If it goes badly, she'll have a fond memory that she'll think is hilarious and rib you about for the rest of your lives.

If it goes well, it will become her idea in the first place.

Sep 19, 2011#70

Norris

She did say "can't see it". So yeah. I dunno. I am at the point of asking her what she thinks (though I think I'll bury the lead on this one) but Mrs. M apparently forewent sleep last night for homework and hasn't been online today.

Sep 19, 2011#71

Chad Sexington

Every time someone gives you advice, you say "Well the problem is..." and give us some new information, which really looks like you're trying to find excuses to put it off.

Watch this. I want to buy a new watch. It's $100, I have $150. The thing is, I wanted to go to a fancy restaurant, which could cost $60. So I can't buy the watch.

-But Leigh, you say, why not just go to a less expensive restaurant?

-Well, the thing is, I promised my friend I'd go to his restaurant.

-But Leigh, you say, why not just go to his restaurant next week?

-Well, the problem is he's going to be out of town next week.

-But Leigh, you say, why not go when he's back in town for a welcome-home dinner! It'd be perfect.

-Well the problem is, he's allergic to all foods everywhere, he owns the restaurant ironically.

See! I can find a reason not to do stuff too. It's fun!

Sep 19, 2011#72

Norris

Maybe it's because I tend to feel any girl I like enough to be interested in could so very much better than me.

Maybe it is because my sister, a huge nerd, has given me the exact same advice and I'm gonna say she wasn't trying to give me a hint. Why would Mads be different?

Maybe it is because, based on all our interactions up to now, her having romantic interest in me makes less logical sense than a David Lynch film.

Maybe it is because I am utterly terrified at the prospect of things going well and having the sexually experienced young woman paired up with the young male virgin who has only made out with one girl.

Maybe it is because, out of the ten girls I have pursued since the age of five, precisely one has expressed any romantic interest in me.

Maybe it is because only one girl in my 16 years of liking girls has ever had any interest in me whatsoever.

Maybe I just have serious self esteem issues after a lifetime of rejection and bullying from peers that I refuse to talk to a professional about because my father, who had a shitty home life pretty much until he married my mom, managed to be knocking on sixty before seeing a therapist.

Maybe it is all of those above. Look, I get that dating is easy for some people. My buddy The Pirate King has been dateless with exceeding rarity in his life. But it is not that way for me. It just doesn't happen. I don't get that first look, much less the second or third. So this, the possibility that a good looking, intelligent, funny, fascinating, and nerdy-as-hell chick who I made a shit first impression on is even remotely into me, is alien to me. It is beyond my fucking comprehension. I would deal better if the fucking TARDIS materialized in the middle of my apartment and Matt Smith stepped out to ask for my help fighting General Zod. I could understand that. This is beyond my fucking comprehension. It just don't happen to me.

Sep 19, 2011#73

Chad Sexington

Whoa whoa whoa mate. I'm saying it's easy or that there aren't your-own-life factors to overcome. I am saying don't make it harder on yourself by finding reasons not to act. It's a really easy game to play and you always beat yourself at it, which is to say, you always lose.

Trust me. I'm a former goddamn elite player.

Sep 19, 2011#74

Biannoshufu

Stop thinking.

It's like swimming. or bike riding. Don't think. Don't over think. Just do it already.

Sep 19, 2011#75

Norris

Chad Sexington said:
Whoa whoa whoa mate. I'm saying it's easy or that there aren't your-own-life factors to overcome. I am saying don't make it harder on yourself by finding reasons not to act. It's a really easy game to play and you always beat yourself at it, which is to say, you always lose.

Taking action can get you the big money and the fabulous prizes, but it can also get you:

1) Banished from someone's life (Andrea).
2) Blindsided and dumped after two and a half years of dating, fucking you up for six months (Sam).
3) Kicked out of your circle of friends when they must choose, you or your crush (Aria).
4) Nearly a year of awkwardness when things don't work out (Courtney).
5) Still friends with a person like reasonable adults (Mrs. M, in 8th grade incidentally).

Whereas not acting gets you:

1) Mild regret (Alison).

So...yeah. Many ways asking someone out goes wrong. Not doing so only goes wrong one way.

Biannoshufu said:
Stop thinking.

It's like swimming. or bike riding. Don't think. Don't over think. Just do it already.

I'm an avid bicyclist and I am constantly thinking about my physical relationship to cars, pedestrians, where I'm going, what I'm gonna do when i get there, etc, etc while out riding. Not best example.

Sep 19, 2011#76

Espy

Meh, either you ask her or you don't. Get her number and call her or do it face to face if you want an honest answer. I get being afraid or nervous man, believe me, I GET it. But sometimes you gotta realize, hey, she opened a door if I don't step through it SOON it will close because she won't think I'm interested.

Hell, even if you are totally misreading it and she shoots you down just shrug it off. There are lots of girls out there who like nerdy guys. Even awkward nervous ones.

Promise.

Sep 19, 2011#77

Biannoshufu

So you settle into not asking. You settle into not dating, because risk always turns bad. Then thirty years fly by, and you look back at all the things you didn't do. Really?

Sep 19, 2011#78

Norris

Espy said:
Hell, even if you are totally misreading it and she shoots you down just shrug it off. There are lots of girls out there who like nerdy guys. Even awkward nervous ones.

Shrug off never being able to show my face at my best pal's apartment again? Shrug off the fact I will probably lose the nine comics ($24.10 worth) I loaned her when she stops speaking to me? Shrug off undoing all the work I've done to make up for a bad first impression? Shrug off losing someone who has the makings of being a pretty cool friend?

You guys, the whole "lose a friend, at least for a while, because you dared ask them out" thing hasn't happened to me once. It hasn't happened twice. It has happened three times. One of them was legit nutty, but the other two were normal. I just cause that reaction in people.

Biannoshufu said:
So you settle into not asking. You settle into not dating, because risk always turns bad. Then thirty years fly by, and you look back at all the things you didn't do. Really?

Being alone on my own terms seems somewhat more preferable to a life of hope-despair cycles, yeah.

Sep 19, 2011#79

Chad Sexington

You're the biggest, perhaps only naysayer in this thread! THE ONLY PERSON AGAINST YOU IS YOU.

Seriously, the more you build this up, the worse it will be, the more impossible it will feel. I promise, no matter how long you agonize over it, she's only going to hear one question: Would You Like To Go Out With Me Sometime?

And she's just gonna say yes or no and not think more of it. If yes, it'll be, "a few dates, figure out how things feel"; if no, it'll be, "it just wasn't right right now." She's not gonna overanalyze and hyperconsider everything like you're doing. The idea that you can't show yourself at your friend's place is, well. Silly. She's your friend. Sure in a few months, whether successful or no, she might tease you about it, but if she's really your friend she'll love you, she'll love the kind of person who was willing to put himself out there. And this other person, if she's a reasonable human being, will be flattered, even if she doesn't say yes, and it'll be bearable after a few weeks.

Sep 19, 2011#80

Espy

EDIT.

What Chad said.

Sep 20, 2011#81

Shegokigo

Oh man this went pretty much where I figured it was going to after the replies in the first page. Now it's going to turn into "Make me feel better, even though I'm not going to do a damn thing about my problem" thread.

I should have put money on this.

Am I being a bitch? No, Norris already chose that life for himself a long time ago. He beats himself up since noonelse is going to. I can tell you this RIGHT NOW, you'll never have a successful attempt at asking a girl out, MUCH less having a relationship at all until you stop treating yourself like the pile of refuse you seem to think you are. Maybe you are, I don't know you personally, but even the biggest pieces of shit (Those ugly assholes that beat their gorgeous wives and innocent kids mercilessly, those are the people that should have your life outlook) have the confidence in themselves to find someone to give a shit about them romantically, personally and for their miserable lives. You honestly think you're worth less than them? I don't even think Mathias and Jay combined could beat you down worse than you already have.

Sep 20, 2011#82

Ravenpoe

Maybe you should try men. Women don't seem to be your thing.

Sep 20, 2011#83

Tress

Holy cow man. I remember feeling the same way you did back when I was a teenager. Let me tell you something, and I'm speaking from experience here: just fucking do it.

I used to freak out. I used to have self-esteem issues. I used to get a crush on a girl and then convince myself why she's too good for me and why it would never work blah blah blah. This one girl came along, dropping hint after hint after hint. I was into her but scared shitless. Finally I talked myself into a corner, took a deep breath (seriously), and just asked her out. It wasn't contrived or a super-sexy-smooth approach, either. I just said "Do you want to go out to a movie with me?" I was terrified, and I was shaking a little from the adrenaline. You want to know what she said?

Well too bad, it doesn't matter what she said. The moral of the story is that from that point on I learned that I have nothing to gain by panicking and doubting myself. It was just like standing on the side of a pool worrying about whether the water was too cold or too hot. I learned it was best to dive in and deal with whatever comes next.

This is like going on your very first roller coaster. You get to the top of the first rise, and you start to freak out. You don't know what will happen next and it scares the shit out of you. Then the ride keeps going, and you find out that it's fun. Or, at the very least, you find out that it wasn't that bad. Right now you're on that coaster, but you keep screaming for it to stop and keep trying to get out of your seat. Don't. Just go with the flow.

She'll say yes, or she'll say no. That's it. Maybe, MAYBE, she will get awkward. MAYBE. But even if she does, you will have gained the valuable experience. But that's only if you act. Standing still like you are gets you NOTHING.

And don't come back at me with some sudden excuse for why it's different or my analogy sucks. I don't want to hear it and it won't change the truth. Just take a deep breath and go for it. It will all work out okay in the end.

Sep 20, 2011#84

Biannoshufu

Take it from Tress, the chest burster knows human hearts.

Sep 20, 2011#85

Hailey Knight

Give her orgasms.

Bitches love orgasms.

Sep 20, 2011#86

ThatNickGuy

Welp, I give up. Norris is just going to keep beating himself (in more ways than one) instead of at least giving it a try. I don't mean to sound like a total prick, but responding to him at this point isn't going to help. It's going to be a cycle of us saying doing and him coming up with excuses.

He's not going to do it. Let's not encourage it any further.

Sep 20, 2011#87

LordRendar

Man up or shut up.

Sep 20, 2011#88

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Welp, I give up. Norris is just going to keep beating himself (in more ways than one) instead of at least giving it a try. I don't mean to sound like a total prick, but responding to him at this point isn't going to help. It's going to be a cycle of us saying doing and him coming up with excuses.

He's not going to do it. Let's not encourage it any further.

Fair enough sir. If it be any consolation, I am deeply regretting starting this thread in the first place. No amount of advice can fix poor self esteem and a mild phobia of social interaction.

Quotemander Prime said:
Give her orgasms.

Bitches love orgasms.

Wouldn't know. My ex girlfriend refused to let me make her orgasm because she was scared of her mom finding out we were fooling around.

Amorous Eyes said:
Everyone was a noob when it comes to sex at one point or another. If it comes to that, communication is key. She also may not be as experienced as you think. Having sex for (far too) many people is just "in, out, in, out". I'd hardly call that sexual experience

Even if she's only had sex once (which I know isn't true), she's more experienced than me. Virgin males aren't known for their ability to please women, by any means. So yeah. Even if things go well, I'd probably get dumped for that.

I believe the current 'men successfully asking a girl out' ratio is 1:20. You're not doing that bad.

The important part isn't 1:10, but one per sixteen years. I will be in my mid-thirties before I get another date, if the patter holds.

Work on this. Seriously. Justifying making the same mistake because your father did it is quite stupid.

You misunderstand. My dad? He has some serious shit to be depressed about, starting with shit in his childhood and going right up to his wife of 18 years dying rather suddenly. Me? Some kids picked on me and my mom died (leaving me with a super loving and supportive dad). I've go a definite case of #firstworldproblems, Rockin' The Suburbs problems ("Y'all don't know what it's like/being male, middle class, and white").

If you don't expect it to happen to you, then yes, you may have missed countless signals over the years from girls that were interested in you but you ignored them and thus they assumed you were not interested in them.

Why does it have to be signals anyways? Why I expected, simply because I'm a dude, to make the first move? I mean, lemme put it this way - Mads (the girl in question, I just realized I never mentioned that) is a staunch feminist. She could try asking me out. I'd definitely say "yes"!

Shegokigo said:
Oh man this went pretty much where I figured it was going to after the replies in the first page. Now it's going to turn into "Make me feel better, even though I'm not going to do a damn thing about my problem" thread.

Not where I had intended it to go, but yeah.

But I did something! I messaged her! She didn't reply. It's been over a day. My usual turn around on FB messages is six hours (that means when I message Mrs. M, my sister, my GVSU friends, etc, I have reply within six hours). It is seeming more and more likely I simply misread a piece of advice I get frequently because it was a single woman who gave it.

Am I being a bitch? No, Norris already chose that life for himself a long time ago. He beats himself up since noonelse is going to. I can tell you this RIGHT NOW, you'll never have a successful attempt at asking a girl out, MUCH less having a relationship at all until you stop treating yourself like the pile of refuse you seem to think you are. Maybe you are, I don't know you personally, but even the biggest pieces of shit (Those ugly assholes that beat their gorgeous wives and innocent kids mercilessly, those are the people that should have your life outlook) have the confidence in themselves to find someone to give a shit about them romantically, personally and for their miserable lives. You honestly think you're worth less than them? I don't even think Mathias and Jay combined could beat you down worse than you already have.

The only correction I have to make is - I learned to do this so that other people can't. A bully's word cease stinging if you already recognize your own flaws. I admit, what began as a defense mechanism my have developed into something...not good, but regardless. My other defense mechanism is to simply ignore things that intimidate me and...lady parts intimidate the hell out of me, so there's that.

Anyhoo, the difference between me and those assholes? Assholes don't care if you like them. They don't give shit. At all. They are the opposite side of the spectrum from me - overly blind to any flaws or problems they might have. That is why they're successful. Confidence is sexy. People want Harrison Ford, not Woody Allen.

Sep 20, 2011#89

Silver Jelly

Read my old manbaw thread and learn from my mistakes.
My dream nerdy girl is with a guy that in many ways is pretty much like me... but dared to do something more than just becoming best friends with her and wondering if she liked him or not.

I made my move half a year after my window of opportunity was open.* I didn't know it, but they started dating two weeks before I did it.

*yeah, you all told me the same stuff you are telling him now, and i didn't listen.

Sep 20, 2011#90

Ravenpoe

Ok, serious advice from me this time. See a counselor, because you've got some pretty severe anxiety and self image issues.

Sep 20, 2011#91

ThatNickGuy

Norris said:
Fair enough sir. If it be any consolation, I am deeply regretting starting this thread in the first place. No amount of advice can fix poor self esteem and a mild phobia of social interaction.

Dude, you're talking to the king of low self esteem. Aside from Nourah, I can't remember the last time I even went for anything with a girl. My problem is that I just assume no one would be even interested in me, so I don't even bother looking. You, though, you at least seem to have a chance with this girl.

Basically what I'm saying is this: SHIT OR GET OFF THE DAMN POT.

Sep 20, 2011#92

Espy

Yes, what developed as a defense mechanism is now a damaging pattern for yourself.

I say this as the husband of a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist: You need therapy.

Thats not a slight against you, it's just what is. You need someone with some real skills to help you work through this. In no way should you consider yourself a lesser person for getting therapy. It's not there just for the crazies, it's for people who need someone to help them work through real life challenges. This seems to count. Here's a good place to start looking if you seriously want to change this pattern before it corrupts every area of your life: http://www.theravive.com/cities/locations.aspx
If you want me to lock this thread I'd be happy to do it. I'm not sure what else can be done here.

Sep 20, 2011#93

Norris

Ravenpoe said:
Ok, serious advice from me this time. See a counselor, because you've got some pretty severe anxiety and self image issues.

You sound like my friends. And the guys at FSTDT. If my dad could come away from shitty parents, hearing loss from childhood, and failing high school years to have a successful career, a beautiful wife, two pretty smart (if dorky as fuck) children, generally being the most on the ball of his siblings, and to be a great dad, then I can come away from "Walker Germs" and being bad with women to find some success. His problems? Real problems. No need for therapy until they'd weighed on him for more than four decades.

Me? No fucking need for therapy. Need for a pair of testicles, maybe.

EDIT:

Espy said:

I say this as the husband of a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist: You need therapy.

Click to expand...

And I say this as the son of a guy whose therapist flat out told him "You have a lot to be depressed about." - I don't. I'm rockin' the suburbs. Male, middle class, and white. Two (for 13 years, then one) loving parents. No real problems in life to speak of. Yes, I have some emotional issues but fuck me sideways, I'm not going to take the time a therapist could be seeing a rape survivor or a suicidal person to bitch about how the kids were mean to me in school.

Sep 20, 2011#94

ThatNickGuy

No need for therapy until it weighed on him for four decades is not a positive. That just means he waited until his breaking point to actually do something about it. Don't repeat that mistake. There's nothing wrong with getting therapy. Believe me. I'm seeing a counsellor again now and he's thinking I was mis-diagnosed when I was 18. I've been saying I was diagnosed with Situational Depression. His thinking is that it might be Major Depression Recurrant. Possibly a form of bi-polar.

My point is this: I see a lot of myself in the things you've written. Therapy or counselling might honestly do you a world of good.

Sep 20, 2011#95

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
My point is this: I see a lot of myself in the things you've written. Therapy or counselling might honestly do you a world of good.

Every minute I spent with a therapist or counselor would be a minute they weren't spending with a rape survivor, a suicidal person, a person who had an abusive parent, someone with clinical depression, etc. Kids were mean to me in elementary and middle school, and girls don't like me romantically. My defense mechanisms need a little coaxing to shut down.

It stinks, but it doesn't suck. Therapy is for people who have suck in their life.

Sep 20, 2011#96

Espy

You honestly don't understand therapy. You think you do, or at least you have convinced yourself of it so you don't have to deal with your issues, but you don't.

But you aren't going to be swayed so I won't argue with you about it.

Good luck.

Sep 20, 2011#97

strawman

Saying you don't need to see the doctor for a seemingly minor infection because there are kids with life threatening head wounds is only going to end up getting you killed.

Guess what? There are therapists who only see people with minor problems. People with "minor" self-image issues that hamper their life need therapy. You can let the infection go until you decide that it's ruined enough of your life that suddenly it's "worthy" of therapy, or you can go to the "doctor" now, get the antibiotics you need for a few weeks, and move on with your life.

If you wait until it's bad enough (and trust me, we all see that this isn't something you're going to solve on your own) that you finally see a therapist of your own volition, you'll be in therapy for years. Do it now and you might be able to get away with therapy measured in weeks and months, with occasional follow-up visits thereafter.

It's already preventing you from living a full life. You're letting your self-esteem issues prevent you from normal, human, social interaction. It's already well past the point where it's obvious you need help.

It's not a bad thing. You aren't stealing therapy from others with more serious problems. Many, many others with less severe problems are in therapy now - it's not a zero-sum game.

Don't let it fester. Don't let it prevent you from really living. Go get it checked out now.

The therapist will tell you if your problem isn't worthy of their attention. Go at least once. Explain that you've been rejected so often that you would rather live alone and depressed than try to start another relationship. Then let them decide if there's someone else they should be seeing rather than you.

Sep 20, 2011#98

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
Wouldn't know. My ex girlfriend refused to let me make her orgasm because she was scared of her mom finding out we were fooling around.

Well, now I've told you. Now that you know what to do, get out there and make it happen.

In seriousness, considering all you've said, if this girl's so great and you're this impairing, I don't think I want you with her. If she gives you a chance, this kind of worrying, nervous shit is going to occur at every step of any dating/relationship, be it time with her, what you guys do for an evening, her friends, on and on, and when she breaks up with you, all you'll have done is give the next awkward geek a harder time.

You're not going to get over this by simply "manning up" overnight, and that's pretty much the time length for your window with her. You're either going to find someone to aspire to be, or get therapy. You can do those things WHILE you're with her, and probably should if you want to show her a good time without letting your insecurities become a burden on her. Otherwise, let the window slip, and do those things anyway so you can improve yourself next time you see a girl you like.

People need counseling for different things. If you're feeling too ashamed to admit you have a problem and get help, you're going to feel ashamed if she doesn't see you that way, and you're the one who will make your friendships awkward thereon. Girls let this shit go easier than you think, but if you make it a problem, they'll let it be a problem.

Aside from your need for inspiration or therapy:
How you come off doesn't matter as much as doing the action. One asking out of mine was pretty much: "So, I wanna be friends no matter what, but, uh, would you wanna, uh, maybe go out some time?" said with scratching the back of my head nervously, probably going red in the face, and essentially smiling like a doofus. She didn't say yes because of my form--which was terrible--she said yes because I bothered to fucking ask.

Sep 20, 2011#99

Charlie Don't Surf

Your problems matter since they are your problems. See someone.

Sep 20, 2011#100

ThatNickGuy

Norris said:
Every minute I spent with a therapist or counselor would be a minute they weren't spending with a rape survivor, a suicidal person, a person who had an abusive parent, someone with clinical depression, etc. Kids were mean to me in elementary and middle school, and girls don't like me romantically. My defense mechanisms need a little coaxing to shut down.

It stinks, but it doesn't suck. Therapy is for people who have suck in their life.

Yeah, and I was relentlessly bullied in middle school, to the point that I had no self-esteem left. I'm seeing counseling for that.

There's counselling for everything. You're not being a hero by not getting help.

Do you always come up with excuses for everything and anything?

Sep 20, 2011#101

Ravenpoe

Norris said:
Every minute I spent with a therapist or counselor would be a minute they weren't spending with a rape survivor, a suicidal person, a person who had an abusive parent, someone with clinical depression, etc.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, that's the most bullshit answer I've ever seen.

You not dealing with your shit is not a public service. I'm sorry if this sound hostile, it really isn't meant to be, just trying to show you the absurdity of that statement.

Sep 20, 2011#102

Chad Sexington

The following post contains sincerity and some almost personal information. It is entirely free from sarcasm, and seems to express concern for my fellow man. I apologise in advance to letting Halforums down, and anyone offended by public displays of concern. It is also very very long.

It doesn't have to be 'therapy'. Plenty of counsellors exist who exclusively deal with self-image, so you're drawing attention away from none of those other issues, but by the by, your issues aren't minor because they significantly impact your life and ability to live it. It's really hard to see it yourself, but it's really obvious to everyone else, and I know, I know that's a hateful idea, that somehow these other people who just don't know how it feels (and they can't/don't.) somehow know what you need. But they're right.

No one is suggesting you be an arrogant prick who doesn't care what other people think, but rather that you address what makes you dislike and distrust yourself so much that you assume all other people see those things. The majority of people in that thread just see a nerd they sympathise with because they're like you, but do not have -or have overcome- their self-esteem problems. Of course we must care what some people think about us some times. But you have this cripplingly and obvious belief that all people think the same terrible things you think about yourself.

They don't.

I can't convince you of this, probably. I say this because oh my god I have been there and it is hell. But there's got to be something to grab on to. Do you confess these dark insecurities to your close real-world friends? It is hard to do, but worth it. They will take care of you. I'm going to give you some advice. Not out of certitude or arrogance, but out of pain because you say things I have said, and I believe you feel things I have felt.

Talk to your friends. Pour out your grief and ignore your shame over it. Yes, it feels selfish. Yes, it looks trivial. But look at it another way: isn't this pain making you unable to be selfless? It restricts you from offering more of yourself to others because you are so convinced that just 'being you' pushes people away. Isn't this pain preventing you from believing you can add more to the world? First world problems, okay. Fine. But they're problems preventing you from making more of the world, not to sound trite. I'm not saying you'll fly to Africa and cure disease and stop hunger. But you'll contribute to people's lives, you'll make things better around you, but only if you think you can do those things. And you can.

I don't really know why you started the thread. Did you want advice? Or did you want us to confirm your beliefs about yourself. Some of us have been sarcastic (myself included) in our advice, but we've all had the same belief: that you're as good as person as any and you should just ask her out! I stand by this. I think it will build your self-confidence, no matter her answer.

And find therapy. Start with your friends, but find help. What you're feeling is wholly legitimate and I will never say it's 'wrong', but it is beyond normal anxiety. Whether it's a chemical thing and they can give you something, or it's just a psychological thing, you are experiencing a depth of stress over this (and, I will extrapolate, to many other things) that is not reasonable, and it hurts you. It shows.

Other random advice: limit your Facebook use. Insist on texting/calling friends. Obviously Facebook's a useful tool, but it's self-aggrandizing and I find it undermines more than reinforces relationships (by which I mean general acquaintance/friendships, not necessarily romantic). Do things like make excuses to see friends, even ones you don't consider close. Get coffee with someone you only 'know a little' once every two months. Just for variety. You'll feel good learning about someone/telling them about you. When you're sad or lonely, talk to someone. Just vent. Your friends love you, they'll listen. You'll be surprised at how short a time you can know someone before they'll be willing to listen to a lot of stuff you think is scary, stressful and bizarre. The closest friends will simply refuse to let you feel lonely. This isn't a conscious effort on their part. You'll simply start talking to them and they'll say things that leave you with this lighter feeling. You'll find people around whom you just can't feel that bad about yourself.

And I have a demand. Read The Brothers Karamazov by Fydor Dostoevsky. Particularly I recommend the translation by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky. There is great wisdom to be derived from it. I think you'll get a lot out of it. I don't mean that to seem silly or random. It can be a legitimately life-changing novel; view that with what skepticism you will.

Sep 20, 2011#103

Norris

The only people I've ever known, in my day to day, who have felt they needed therapy were attempted suicides, people with abusive parents, and sexual abuse survivors. I, on the other hand, got made fun of.

My hang ups don't really keep me from doing too much. I socialize fine in classes or at work, the friends I do hang out with outside of those situations are people I am TIGHT with. I just need to stay positive.

Sep 20, 2011#104

ThatNickGuy

And sometimes, that takes therapy. At least give it a try, man.

Or, at the very least, can I suggest a book to you? It's helped me loads. It's called Feeling Good by David M. Burns.

Sep 20, 2011#105

Chad Sexington

Norris said:
The only people I've ever known, in my day to day, who have felt they needed therapy were attempted suicides, people with abusive parents, and sexual abuse survivors. I, on the other hand, got made fun of.

My hang ups don't really keep me from doing too much. I socialize fine in classes or at work, the friends I do hang out with outside of those situations are people I am TIGHT with. I just need to stay positive.

Jesus. Their baseline is not your baseline. True someone abused by their parents might never miss a beat when it comes to introducing himself and being shot down by a girl. But what in the hell of shit does that have to do with you? stienman's cancer/infection metaphor is solid. Just because everyone you know who goes to the doctor had cancer, limbs blown off, and catastrophically uncontrollable bladders doesn't mean your little cut won't kill you.

You also seem incapable of staying positive, because when we say "It's okay, you should do this," you say "BUT EVERYTHING WILL END IN RUIN." Thanks, Tips. We're all gonna die, so we might as well kill ourselves now!

Sep 20, 2011#106

strawman

Halforums:

YOU WILL GET BETTER.

OR ELSE.

Sep 20, 2011#107

Norris

Spoke to Mrs. M. She's only known Mads as a single woman...but does admit that there's a chance it could have been a hint and that our interests align dang near perfectly. So her advice? Give it a try. It might work.

Aaaaaaand we're back to sunshine optimism land.

Sep 20, 2011#108

ThatNickGuy

Game on! Game on!

Seriously, good. But still at least consider some counselling.

Sep 20, 2011#109

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Seriously, good. But still at least consider some counselling.

In truth...I have. But how do I go to my father and say "Hey, can I get some cash to go see a counselor? You've been a great dad but I still ended up fucked in the head". He'll either think I'm being whiny or he'll be hurt and feel guilty. Or he'll support me. But I can't know, and I don't even want to risk disappointing him.

Sep 20, 2011#110

ThatNickGuy

That, sir, is a classic Cognitive Distortion called Mind Reading. Before even asking your dad, you've already set yourself up for failure by assuming things that haven't even been said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion

And you can learn how to overcome that sort of thing with counselling or with that book I suggested. Hell, just by my awareness of said Distortions, it helped me a lot. When I would think a negative thought like that, I was re-think it and say to myself, "No, that's a Distortion."

Sep 20, 2011#111

strawman

1. He's been through counseling. Chances are very, very high that he will take it at face value and help you out. Further, insurance will often cover some types of counseling, so it might not be a financial burden anyway.
2. It's nice that you're thinking of others. Don't screw yourself because you might inconvenience or disappoint someone else. You have to live your life, and if you don't stand up for yourself, who will?
3. It's very unlikely that he'll take it personally. In fact, he may have been wondering for years how he could tell you that he sees you struggling and wants to help out - but he thinks you'll be offended or won't listen. People who have been through counseling often learn to look beyond their own problems and want to help others out in the same way they got help.
4. He's your dad, and he loves you. He will bend over backwards to try and help you out. Trust his love for you, and confide in him.

Sep 20, 2011#112

figmentPez

Norris said:
The only people I've ever known, in my day to day, who have felt they needed therapy were attempted suicides, people with abusive parents, and sexual abuse survivors. I, on the other hand, got made fun of.

I've seen four counsellors at various times in my life, since I was about eleven to I was in my mid-twenties. Right now I'm considering seeing another, to help deal with all the issues surrounding my health and rebuilding my life. I've never attempted suicide, my parents are amazing, and I've never been the victim of much of anything beyond name-calling.

The reason I saw the first counselor in 5th grade? Because I was so upset by other kids getting bullied on the playground that my schoolwork suffered, and that started off trouble with my teacher.
I saw the second counselor because of the stress of moving from Ohio to Texas at age 13.
You get the idea. The issues weren't major compared to what other people have been through, but they were keeping me from living my life. I didn't have what I needed on my own to work through them, and my parents didn't know what to do, so we got help. Later on, as an adult, I saw one because my health was keeping me from finding my place in the world, and it was a bigger issue than I or my friends and family knew how to address.

Not seeing a counselor because you might keep them from a bigger crisis, is like not seeing a doctor for chronic pain because there are car accidents and gunshots and ruptured appendixes that are more time sensitive. Different doctors deal with different health problems, and so do different psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, life coaches, etc. Not every mental health professional deals with rape cases. You're not taking time away from someone else.

Your mental health is important. To you, certainly, but also to your friends, your family and to all the people who you'll treat better if you're in a better place yourself. You may see yourself as a very small part of the world, but you're not so small that you're unimportant. Take care of yourself.

Sep 20, 2011#113

Norris

I look at my life like this:

I have a shit ton of issues. I want to complain about them, and I want people to give me advice that I ask for. My friends in the real world know me. They know who I am, how I think, and have informed opinions about what is best for me. Their advice, Mrs. M's advice? I take. Without question.

What I have a harder time taking? Next to total strangers telling me that if I just man up, everything will work out. I've tried. It doesn't. The other forum I mentioned? They told me to ask the girl to hang out, low pressure but one-on-one and see how things develop. I came here to get a third opinion as to whether or not her suggestion was a hint. I was hit with "It was a hint, take it you pussy!"

I also honestly don't believe I need counseling. Yes, I sometimes cry myself to sleep and that is not strictly normal, but I go to class and do fine. I go to work (when I have someone employing me) and do fine. I talk to people at school and work and enjoy it. I do go hang out with folks on the weekends (sometimes). I have a life. One punctuated by the occasional spiral of negative emotion, but I'm not in any danger. I respect counselors and therapists. Every single person I know sings their praises to the high heavens. I respect the profession too much to bother it. It would be like going to the doctor because I stubbed my toe. Yeah it hurts, but I'm not in any danger whatsoever.

So fuck you Tinwhistler. You don't know me. When I ask for advice, I want advice not orders. Not commands to "man up". Man up, what does that bullshit even mean? Fucking macho man stereotype has been the bane of my baking, singing, theater-loving, willing-to-cry existence. It pisses me off. I don't like being told to man up. So that's what I had a problem with, mother fucker.

Here's the advice, from Mrs. M, that I ultimately decided to go with:
Regardless of whether you think I should take it or not, you know her better than I. Opinion?

I don't know, I love Mads, but I think she's a little strong for you. Like... she's like vodka or something, and you need to find yourself a winecooler

But you didn't answer my question, or at least the one I was trying to ask - knowing Mads as you do, does that sound like a hint or advice?

Probably just advice... but I don't really know

I've never known Mads with a guy

She doesn't really seem like the "hint" type, but I honestly don't know

Mmmmmkay.

I suppose it couldn't hurt to ask her out to a movie or something if you're interested... she doesn't seem like the type that would refuse to speak to you again if you were off-base, but that's up to you.

Sep 20, 2011#114

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
I just need to stay positive.

Then quit being so negative. You asked for advice; we gave you the advice: ask her. None of your excuses for any of it are at all relevant.

Sep 20, 2011#115

Norris

Tinwhistler said:
On top of all that, I like to cross-stitch. Man the fuck up.

GOD DAMMIT FUCK OFF WITH THAT FUCKING DUMBASS BULLSHIT! That phrase implies that there is something manly about either being a perfect fucking doubtless person who always acts with their goddamned gut and is somehow magically always fucking right or that it is manly to fucking do whatever you fucking want to do without considering the fucking thoughts and feelings of others! If I ask out my best friend's roommate, the best case scenario is that we have a loving long term relationship. That is the one and only fucking way it can end well. There are a million ways it can end in awkwardness, heartbreak, pain, loss of friendships, and bringing shit down on the heads of people I like and love. I honestly don't get how other people can go through life taking these giant fucking gambles with other people's emotions and with their friendships without so much as considering the possible fucking consequences.

You look both ways before you cross the street, don't you? Check your blind spots before changing lanes? Why bother with pussy bullshit! Man up! Run into traffic! Swerve all over the highway! Don't bother considering whether or not something is actually a good fucking idea before doing it!

IT IS NOT UNMANLY, IT IS CONSIDERATE!

Sep 20, 2011#116

ThatNickGuy

Okay:

1) You ADMIT to having a shit ton of issues.
2) You ADMIT to sometimes crying yourself to sleep. That is absolutely not healthy for anyone.
3) This isn't like seeing a doctor about stubbing your toe. This is like seeing a surgeon to fix that thing that make you walk crooked or finally having that eye laser surgery so you can see more than two colours out of it. Yeah, you won't die from it, but you can better your life.

You might not be in immediate danger, but this CONSTANT, ongoing negative thinking IS incredibly harmful to your overall being. Trust me. I'm pleading with you from personal frigging experience. At least consider the goddamn option for counselling. None of us here are professionals, but we've all been there. You may not realize it, but a lot of us either have previously thought the way you've thought to varying degrees, or continue to think that way.

Frankly speaking, this'll be the last time I'll post here. This is just continuing on your own negative thinking, self-destructive ways. Twice I've suggested checking out Feeling Good and you didn't even put that into consideration.

Look at it this way: would you prefer to continue this self-destructive emotional thinking? Do you want to maybe, just maybe, not cry yourself to sleep? Maybe stop having those Cognitive Distortions where you're assuming things that you haven't even tried?

Counselling. Or the goddamn book I recommend.

Or continue to be miserable and hoping things are just going to get better without doing any work. Me? I'm seeing my counsellor later today. And looking into other possibilities that he's suggested, such as possible physical causes of my depression, such as having my thyroid checked. I don't want to start teaching Elementary and worry that I'm going to break down or have something negatively affect me to the point of being unable to go to school that day. I'm being proactive because I'M TIRED OF ALWAYS FEELING THIS WAY. Wouldn't you!?

And this whole FUCKING time, all you've done is come up with this excuse and this Cognitive Distortion when EVERY one of us WHO HAVE GODDAMN BEEN THERE keep telling you to at LEAST give it a goddamn try.

Sep 20, 2011#117

Frankie Williamson

Therapy, just do it. Seriously, even if we didn't have councillors on staff I would still see one regularly.

Sep 20, 2011#118

Ravenpoe

Norris said:
GOD DAMMIT FUCK OFF WITH THAT FUCKING DUMBASS BULLSHIT! That phrase implies that there is something manly about either being a perfect fucking doubtless person who always acts with their goddamned gut and is somehow magically always fucking right or that it is manly to fucking do whatever you fucking want to do without considering the fucking thoughts and feelings of others! If I ask out my best friend's roommate, the best case scenario is that we have a loving long term relationship. That is the one and only fucking way it can end well. There are a million ways it can end in awkwardness, heartbreak, pain, loss of friendships, and bringing shit down on the heads of people I like and love. I honestly don't get how other people can go through life taking these giant fucking gambles with other people's emotions and with their friendships without so much as considering the possible fucking consequences.

You look both ways before you cross the street, don't you? Check your blind spots before changing lanes? Why bother with pussy bullshit! Man up! Run into traffic! Swerve all over the highway! Don't bother considering whether or not something is actually a good fucking idea before doing it!

IT IS NOT UNMANLY, IT IS CONSIDERATE!

Lock yourself in a cave, it's the only way to make sure you never effect anyone ever again.

Although, good luck finding a cave with a lock.

Sep 20, 2011#119

Norris

It is not every night. Nor am I negative every day. For the last three or four weeks I've been walking on sunshine, with only mild romantic frustrations. I'll have a rough week or two, but even then I'm kicking back enjoying my movies. The reason I cry at night is because I usually distract myself during the day. I don't think it is terribly unusual for one's fears and doubts to attack them at bed time, when all other distractions are gone. I will give you that it hits me a bit too hard, sure, but....Ok, I don't actually have anything to make that sound less bad.

I do thank people for their advice, but I'm not you guys. When I finish typing this, I'm gonna get on the bus, go to my media production class, and talk and laugh and be happy with the friends I have there. When I'm done, I will come home and watch some My Little Pony and laugh. And tonight, maybe, I'll squirt a few tears before I go to bed. But I don't think so, I'm pretty optimistic about my love life (the number one cause of emotional strife for me) right now. Maybe someday counseling will seem like a good idea. But this doesn't rule my life. It would feel like going to AA because you have a couple of beers on the weekend.

And I have said I do consider counseling. I simply decide against it when I do.I wouldn't call myself self destructive. I am in college despite my doubts. I have a driver's license, despite my doubts. I had a moderately successful 2.5 year relationship despite my doubts (and I learned a lot of what not to do from it).

I did look up your recommended book. Specifically, i looked for criticisms of it. Praises rarely tell you much (It's Great!), crits tell you a lot (It is not good for X, Y, and Z reasons). In the end, it sounds like something that...isn't for me. Thank you for the recommendation, however.

Ravenpoe said:
Lock yourself in a cave, it's the only way to make sure you never effect anyone ever again.

it isn't about never effecting anyone, it is about doing my level best to make sure I am doing everything I can to effect people positively rather than negatively. When I volunteeredto perform Mrs. M's wedding, I knew it would (at least initially) piss of her family and get some members of my family disappointed in me. However, I was going to give someone I love like a sister the wedding she deserved, rather than one in a court house. So I did it.

Had I put this much thought into asking out Andrea, I would still have her as a friend.

Sep 20, 2011#120

Espy

I hope you really do consider counseling because I feel like you could look at things in such a different and more healthy way. In no way is it unmanly or taking counseling away from a rape victim, etc. It's perfectly normal and healthy to get counseling. I got counseling when my wife was overseas. Why? Mainly because I missed her and felt down because of it. Not because I was abused.
And you should look into places the do cheap/free therapy. They are out there. My wife volunteered at one for 2 years. People pay what they can since it's a non-profit.

But do what you gotta do man. Just take care of yourself.

Sep 20, 2011#121

Tress

I recommend everyone stop replying. Norris has no interest in actually getting any help or advice. He apparently just wants people to agree that every choice he makes will inevitably lead to a death-spiral of pain and anguish from which there can be no hope. And until he gets some therapy, which none of us can convince him to get, he will keep being miserable. Everything else is just an ego stroking.

Sep 20, 2011#122

ThatNickGuy

I never said "every night". Don't put words in my mouth. Secondly, I'm not even near the levels of depression I could be, but I'm still going to counselling. Why? Because I want to nip this thing in the bud so I no longer feel like a piece of shit in comparison to everyone else I meet. Just because you're feeling up now doesn't mean you won't have down periods. By being proactive about it now, when you do kick yourself for whatever, it won't be as bad.

As far as the book goes...So...wow. Once again, you looked only at the negatives (criticisms). How many criticisms were there compared to the positive reviews? I'm telling you specifically that the book will help you because it helped me a great deal of others that I know. And it won't be as "embarrassing" or certainly as expensive as seeing a counsellor. Do me a favour and, the next time you're in a bookstore, read a couple of pages. THEN come back and tell me it's not for you.

Ugh. Why the hell do I keep responding!?

Sep 20, 2011#123

Norris

Espy said:
I hope you really do consider counseling because I feel like you could look at things in such a different and more healthy way. In no way is it unmanly or taking counseling away from a rape victim, etc. It's perfectly normal and healthy to get counseling.

I absolutely know that counseling is a great thing for people who need it. But middle class white boys who think they have problems are a stock comedy character. I just don't have anything worth paying to get advice on. It will get better with age, it already has.

And you should look into places the do cheap/free therapy. They are out there. My wife volunteered at one for 2 years. People pay what they can since it's a non-profit.

That's a good thought. I should check my health plan to see if it does cover counseling. I can't imagine it does (it is a cheap one through the school), but it is worth looking into I guess.

But do what you gotta do man. Just take care of yourself.

Thank you. I've managed 21 relatively happy and successful years on this planet with not major incidents. I think I will be fine.

ThatNickGuy said:
I never said "every night". Don't put words in my mouth. Secondly, I'm not even near the levels of depression I could be, but I'm still going to counselling. Why? Because I want to nip this thing in the bud so I no longer feel like a piece of shit in comparison to everyone else I meet. Just because you're feeling up now doesn't mean you won't have down periods. By being proactive about it now, when you do kick yourself for whatever, it won't be as bad.

I'm sorry, I did misread your post. I didn't catch that you reused the same modifier I did and thought you just said "you admit your cry yourself to sleep", and got an implied "every night". That's my fuck up sir.

It is great that you are doing something about problems that you feel effect you in a major way. Being proactive is almost always good. But I am not you. I can be generally "up" for months at a time, which is what I think is normal. I've been downright jovial (by my standards) this year. These last two days, where I've had uncertainty, have been my most down. I don't know. I really think I suck at explaining things. I think I'm, at worst, a little less happy than your average person. I wouldn't call myself depressed.

As far as the book goes...So...wow. Once again, you looked only at the negatives (criticisms). How many criticisms were there compared to the positive reviews? I'm telling you specifically that the book will help you because it helped me a great deal of others that I know. And it won't be as "embarrassing" or certainly as expensive as seeing a counsellor. Do me a favour and, the next time you're in a bookstore, read a couple of pages. THEN come back and tell me it's not for you.

Everything has good reviews. Even Michael Bay movies. Bad reviews, and how well thought out their criticisms are, tell you more. My father taught me to always check the 1 star Amazon reviews first - if they're all nitpicky bullshit, then you're good. We buy things on the weakness of the bad reviews in addition to the strength of the good ones. Based on the very well thought out negative reviews for that book, I decided against it. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Ugh. Why the hell do I keep responding!?

For the same reason I get into debates on the IMDB message boards - you're an Intellecutal Sado Masochist.

Sep 20, 2011#124

Chibibar

I glance the last two pages but you know, I'm gonna sound mean on this one.

Sex isn't everything.
Don't worry about being awkward on it (when you get there) just go with the flow and let it happen. So what if one person more experience than the other, If you are not sure what to do, there are some porn out there on where your equipment should be going (yea that sounded mean)

Now, the main part about dating is to get to know the other person. Enjoying each other company. Don't worry about the physical part until you get to the "3rd date rule"

first you must get on FIRST date before worry about 3rd date. If she is apprehensive about sex, then you may not have to worry about it until much later.

Now if you do want sex on the first date, then this girl may not be for you and find someone else.
If you worry about "breaking the circle of friends" then you are making it harder on yourself. You will need to make new friends to date if you worry too much which is HARDER since you will have to go out alone and can't use your current friends as contact cause you "may hurt them" if you date their friends blah blah blah (you know the idea)

Sep 20, 2011#125

Charlie Don't Surf

Norris - you're wrong.

Sep 20, 2011#126

strawman

Nothing we say will ever change your mind on this subject. Sorry to have wasted your time. Good luck, you'll need it!

Sep 20, 2011#127

ThatNickGuy

The book recommendation: My beef is that without even looking at the book for yourself, you shot it down. It's the SAME THING that I've been arguing with you the whole time. Without even trying something, you're finding reasons not to try it. This isn't just a recommendation for a book or a movie that I think you'll like. I'm actively trying to HELP you because it's something that's helped me and scores of others. Like I said: go to a bookstore and read a few pages. Try it for yourself.

The reviews: If I'm looking at the same reviews you looked at, then once again, you're focusing on the negative and ignoring the positive (Cognitive Distortion: disqualifying the positive). There are 13 1-star reviews and ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY NINE 5-star reviews. Yeah, Transformers got some good reviews, but the VAST MAJORITY of them were negative. Your comparitive argument there is extremely flawed. What offends me most is that I am honestly and truly trying to help you and at every single step, every single suggestion, you shoot me down or come up with an excuse. I could go through every one of your posts and find examples of almost every single Cognitive Distortion listed.

Crying yourself to sleep sometimes is more than "a little less happy than the average person". That is a symptom of something that you're disregarding. Also, misreading that I said "every night"? Cognitive distortion: Mental filter.

Sep 20, 2011#128

kaykordeath

I'm a middle class white guy.

I suffered with depression for years. I knew what it was. I've always prided myself on being in tune with my self. I knew I was unhappy and could fairly well elaborate on WHAT I was unhappy about. I didn't want/need counseling because "what good would talking to someone else do that I didn't already discover or KNOW about myself."

And while I didn't really learn anything NEW...finally breaking down and talking to someone help tremendously! Because it's their fucking job to help you! And I mean YOU you, not JUST the abused and raped and fucked up. I do not understand your hesitation. There is no LOGICAL sense in not perusing help. You came here asking for help, and we're A) Helping you and B) showing you how to get more help....If you're concerned that seeing a professional will somehow diminish your self worth, I'd point you back to the start of this thread and re-read it all again...

Sep 20, 2011#129

Dei

There are 4 pages of people giving you advice and 4 pages of you saying why it will never ever ever ever ever ever ever work. If you already came to that conclusion, I don't even know why you made this thread, and you should just stop reading it. However, the fact that you actually made it says that you want SOMEONE to be able to push you, unfortunately none of us can do that through a computer screen, you actually have to take control yourself.

Sep 20, 2011#130

ThatNickGuy

Ditto. I'm a middle class guy who's been spoiled rotten by his parents far too much. But my self-esteem's taken a shit-kicking from relentless bullying, staying indoors and playing video games/watching horror movies more than getting out and playing sports/interacting with kids, along with the usual daddy issues because all my dad cares about are my finances, not the novel I finished writing.

I'm a published writer, an English Literature undergraduate, studying to be a teacher and am not balding. What the hell have I to be depressed about?

Because it's something that's in me. There's something wrong with my brain chemistry that makes me feel like a total loser who feels like he's a burden on everyone around him, that no girl would ever want to date, that sure I published some stories but my novel is like Casablanca meets Ninja Turtles. I have little self worth.

Getting some help in some form is better than getting no help at all.

Sep 20, 2011#131

Chibibar

the thing is that if you are interest in a girl and she is available, why not just ask? why make it too complicated? why worry about what your friend think? People tend to think too much and make such a big deal (I guess that is why Soaps are so popular)

The problem is that unless you are outgoing, your circle of influence (CoI) is very limited. This is your potential pool for date/mate. So by limiting your actions, you are limiting your CoI. This is why people always suggest you go out of your "norm" and join groups of activities you enjoy thus increasing your CoI.

While you are in school, your CoI is actually pretty large, since you get to meet people from all walks of life (positive and negative) in College, you have options to meet all kinds of people, but once you are out of school, CoI is pretty limited to close friends, activities, and work.

The only way to increase it, is via social group, church group, activities group, conventions, and any other activities that allows you to meet fresh new faces.

How does this apply to me Chibi?
Well, look at your situation Norris. You like a girl, but you are afraid it will cause complication. How many girls do you know that you like in the past? have you ask them out? how many other options do you have in the future? It doesn't sound like you go out of your way to meet new people, so your CoI is limited by your current friends and who they can introduce to you (this is an example with all the scenarios you given us)

So bottom line is that with limited CoI, just ask her for a date. It could just be a friend date just you and her to see how it goes. Don't think about sex, just have fun and enjoy each other company. If you worry about "pissing off or alienating Mrs M" or alienating anyone else, then you need to go out of your comfort zone and increase you CoI (i.e. randomly partying is a good way to meet people)

Sep 20, 2011#132

Officer_Charon

You know... I'm gonna have to side with Charlie on this one.

Y'all mark your calendars!

Sep 20, 2011#133

Chibibar

Note: I use to think just like you Norris when I was younger, but a great friend of mine (R.I.P Buddy) said to me, the greatest enemy is YOU. I can be my worst enemy and be the greatest critic you will ever encounter. no living person could ever match that. The only way to overcome it is never let yourself be talk down by anyone including you. The moment I don't give a rat's butt on what people think of me, a whole new world open up. I go out and talk to random guys and girls and you be surprise how many new friends you can make. I go to conventions around the country and meet new people and make lasting friends. Sure there are some negatives, but you just cast that aside and keep on truckin!

Sep 20, 2011#134

Hailey Knight

Guys, Norris is too good for counseling.

Norris sounds like a mild manic-depressive. I wonder how long he'll deny the need for counseling until it develops into a more major form or another psychological disorder altogether, and then he'll consider himself worthy of therapy.

Sep 20, 2011#135

Charlie Don't Surf

You know, this thread title ain't just whistlin' dixie

Sep 20, 2011#136

Chibibar

Quotemander Prime said:
Guys, Norris is too good for counseling.

Norris sounds like a mild manic-depressive. I wonder how long he'll deny the need for counseling until it develops into a more major form or another psychological disorder altogether, and then he'll consider himself worthy of therapy.

We are all just online personalities

we can give our stories and advice, but it all boils down to the person in question. You can take what we said as a grain of salt, or seek help. If you are in a college (I forgot who is who and where) then there are school counselors for these kind of thing (a good start) or maybe some professional help.

Sep 20, 2011#137

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
You know, this thread title ain't just whistlin' dixie

Holy crap, have you ever got a point.

Sep 20, 2011#138

LittleSin

Wow. Why did I read all this?

Norris....man...NORRIS. What the heck are you doing to yourself?

This is going to be cruel but I have to say it: I am a woman. I am an exceedingly nerdy woman. I would never date you seeing this. You need to help yourself before you can even THINK about committing yourself to another human being.

It's the only considerate thing to do.

Sep 20, 2011#139

strawman

LittleSin said:
It's the only considerate thing to do.

Sep 20, 2011#140

Chibibar

http://notalwaysromantic.com/

Sep 20, 2011#141

ThatNickGuy

Did I...? Did I just wholeheartedly agree with something Charlie said?

OH GOD! WHAT HAS THIS THREAD DONE TO ME?!

Sep 20, 2011#142

Norris

LittleSin said:
This is going to be cruel but I have to say it: I am a woman. I am an exceedingly nerdy woman. I would never date you seeing this.

Yes, seeing all of someone's crazy laid bear is not attractive. Which is why you don't lay all your crazy down in one shot. Everyone has crazy.

You need to help yourself before you can even THINK about committing yourself to another human being.

And I think you're incorrect. The two and a half years with my ex were some of the happiest times on recent memory. I did some things wrong, and some of those things were a result of my issues, but overall we made each other very happy. A new girlfriend would emphatically not be a cure all, I am very aware of that. But it would help. Feeling loved...holy shit. It was a reminder every day of the what I already intellectually knew but needed a reminder of on the emotional level - I'm worthy.

Chibibar said:
Sex isn't everything.

It isn't really sex I'm afraid of sir, nor do I feel it is something that should be done before the third date. It is orgasms that scare me. Mainly - well, male sex toys are rubber with a hole in it. Female sex toys - vibrating, rotating, all shapes, all sizes, etc. Note the subtle difference in difficulty level. That's what scares me. BUT THIS IS VERY SECONDARY and I don't think any of us want to go further down this road, so let's not.

ThatNickGuy said:
The reviews: If I'm looking at the same reviews you looked at, then once again, you're focusing on the negative and ignoring the positive (Cognitive Distortion: disqualifying the positive). There are 13 1-star reviews and ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY NINE 5-star reviews.

159 people saying "This is GREAT!" doesn't tell you nearly as much as 13 people saying "here is what was wrong with this book". Most of those negative reviews still said the book had the potential to be helpful, but they felt that it was too shallow. A recurring theme was that they felt the book was more about how to hide depression under a layer of positivity than deal with it. Bottom line - I really don't feel I have as big a problem as you guys perceive this as. It doesn't upset my life. Hell, depending what you view as "symptoms", it has been around so long that I wouldn't be "me" without it.

Crying yourself to sleep sometimes is more than "a little less happy than the average person". That is a symptom of something that you're disregarding.

So no one healthy ever lays awake at night with all the worries they don't have time for during a normal day just taking up brain space? Bull. Everyone has worries, everyone has fears, everyone cries. Once or twice a month is maybe 6% of a year. That ain't much.

Also, misreading that I said "every night"? Cognitive distortion: Mental filter.

Or I just read a message board post wrong because I was trying in vain to get going to class. Could be that.

Dei said:
If you already came to that conclusion, I don't even know why you made this thread, and you should just stop reading it.

I wanted to know if this girl was giving me a signal, not how to rewrite my entire life, get put on brain altering drugs, and become a whole new happier person.

Chibibar said:
the thing is that if you are interest in a girl and she is available, why not just ask? why make it too complicated? why worry about what your friend think? People tend to think too much and make such a big deal (I guess that is why Soaps are so popular)

I performed Mrs. M's wedding, it would take a fuck of a lot more than this to alienate her. No, what I am worried about is the possibility of losing a fellow Doctor Who fan, a fledgling comic fan, a fellow Browncoat, etc as a friend because I misread a piece of friendly advice as a come-on. Add to that the fact that this friend lives with Mrs. M, and getting shunned by the roomie suddenly makes things more awkward and painful.

Like everything in life, it is risk/reward evaluation - is the possibility of a relationship with a cute nerdy girl worth risking my ability to visit my bestie at her home? Since said bestie seems to think things will at least not go all to shit and could even end in a relationship, I am leaning towards "yes, it is worth the risk".

Quotemander Prime said:
Guys, Norris is too good for counseling.

Not too good. Not in need of. I'm not "too good" for a gynecologist either, I just don't need one.

Norris sounds like a mild manic-depressive. I wonder how long he'll deny the need for counseling until it develops into a more major form or another psychological disorder altogether, and then he'll consider himself worthy of therapy.

When it impairs my ability to work, study, or socialize, then I'll worry. Romance is, while awesome, something that can be lived without.

Sep 20, 2011#143

SpecialKO

Norris said:
When it impairs my ability to work, study, or socialize, then I'll worry. Romance is, while awesome, something that can be lived without.

Dude, I don't know you from Adam (hi steiny!), but just listening to the way you describe yourself and rationalize and make excuses...well, you sound a lot like me before I finally found a therapist.

And I'm not saying we're necessarily alike at all, but I just want to point out that it was most assuredly affecting my ability to work, study, or socialize. I completely didn't think it at the time but comparing then and now (over a year later) it's so stupidly obvious that I only regret not finding a therapist that I clicked with years ago.

Take the plunge man, there are licensed therapists (cognitive behavioral ones, specifically) for these kinds of problems. In fact, just from where this thread started, here's the great thing about therapists:

Finding a therapist is kind of like dating, you need to find the right one. But until then, they will almost never ever say no.

Don't have sex with your therapist.

Sep 20, 2011#144

Dei

Norris said:
I wanted to know if this girl was giving me a signal, not how to rewrite my entire life, get put on brain altering drugs, and become a whole new happier person.

And then when everyone said yes go for it, you found 500 reasons to back down. Even people saying "Talk to her in person instead of on Facebook" ended with you finding a bunch of reasons why you couldn't.

Sep 20, 2011#145

kaykordeath

Norris said:
Not too good. Not in need of. I'm not "too good" for a gynecologist either, I just don't need one.

You also don't have a vagina.

What you do appear to have is anxiety. And the defensive attitude comes across as anger. (Not to mention coming across as superior to the many of us who have told you we have felt the exact same way and therapy HELPED). And esteem/self image issues. And possibly just simple (mild or moderate or other) depression.

I will be the first to say that therapy is not for everyone. And with the attitude you currently have, I would advise against it....as you could be doomed to a self-fulfilling prophesy of failure. But I do recommend a reconsideration of said attitude.

Sep 20, 2011#146

Shegokigo

LittleSin said:
This is going to be cruel but I have to say it: I am a woman. I am an exceedingly nerdy woman. I would never date you seeing this. You need to help yourself before you can even THINK about committing yourself to another human being.

My advice didn't even phase him, maybe because I'm gay? I have no idea. He claims he was just asking if it was about signals, but we answered that in the first page. It went the way it did afterward because of his constant self-hate. Also, whether you disagree with LittleSin or not Norris, she's 100% right. If you're not in a good place in your life, you have no No NO business getting into a relationship. You're going to destroy her. Whether you think so now or not, you will with your self-imposed issues.

Tinwhistler said:
bored now...predictable thread is predictable.

See my post about a page or so back.

Sep 20, 2011#147

Norris

Dei said:
And then when everyone said yes go for it, you found 500 reasons to back down. Even people saying "Talk to her in person instead of on Facebook" ended with you finding a bunch of reasons why you couldn't.

Yes, the reason being I don't have the kind of relationship with them where I can just drop by their apartment in the middle of the week. I have classes and homework, all three of them have classes and homework, it's a 10-20 drive from my place to theirs, it just isn't feasible. I also don't have her phone number, and I am of the opinion it is rude to call/text someone who hasn't chosen to give you their number unless you absolutely have to. So yes, I messaged her on FB to ask if she wanted to hang out five or six days from the date of the message. She replied saying "Maybe, but I have a fucked sleep schedule and piles of homework so I might not be available". If I see her in person and things go well, I ask her out on a date-date. I've explained the phases of the plan before.

kaykordeath said:
You also don't have a vagina.

Nor am I convinced I can't get by with a little help from my friends when it comes to my issues.

What you do appear to have is anxiety. And the defensive attitude comes across as anger. (Not to mention coming across as superior to the many of us who have told you we have felt the exact same way and therapy HELPED). And esteem/self image issues. And possibly just simple (mild or moderate or other) depression.

I do get very anxious (I call it "nerving out") but I have ways of getting around it. And, after a big spike when I got dumped, I've calmed the hell down a lot. My friends agree. I'm better than I was this time last year. So I remain unconvinced I need counseling for my issues. But only I have my issues, and I can only decide what is the best course of action for me.

Aside from that, I doubt I've been suffering from undiagnosed/unsuspected depression and anxiety since I was 13 or so. This is normal for me, how I've felt since I can really remember. Even if I was suffering from something that could be treated, I'm not sure I'd want to. Being just like everyone else at the cost of my love of comics, my sense of humor, etc might be too much.

I will be the first to say that therapy is not for everyone. And with the attitude you currently have, I would advise against it....as you could be doomed to a self-fulfilling prophesy of failure. But I do recommend a reconsideration of said attitude.

Thank you for the the honest advice.

Sep 20, 2011#148

Jay

Goddamn, people are still posting here?

Simply put, you need to try... try to TAKE what you want, doing it "like a pussy" only hurts you so much more.

TAKE

Sep 20, 2011#149

Shegokigo

This thread should go into hibernation, to be bumped only by Norris to tell us how his plan went.

Sep 20, 2011#150

Norris

Shegokigo said:
Also, whether you disagree with LittleSin or not Norris, she's 100% right. If you're not in a good place in your life, you have no No NO business getting into a relationship. You're going to destroy her. Whether you think so now or not, you will with your self-imposed issues.

Well that is flat out insulting. I didn't destroy my ex. I haven't destroyed any of my closest friends. It is unfair for strangers on the internet to judge my worth as a romantic partner based on thread. I'm a damn nice guy, a sweetheart, and a supportive boyfriend. One of the big problems of my last relationship is that I lived too much for her and not enough for me. So there. Nyah.

Sep 20, 2011#151

Chibibar

Shegokigo said:
My advice didn't even phase him, maybe because I'm gay? I have no idea. He claims he was just asking if it was about signals, but we answered that in the first page. It went the way it did afterward because of his constant self-hate. Also, whether you disagree with LittleSin or not Norris, she's 100% right. If you're not in a good place in your life, you have no No NO business getting into a relationship. You're going to destroy her. Whether you think so now or not, you will with your self-imposed issues.

See my post about a page or so back.

I would think your advice would be better since you know women more intimately

One last attempt Norris: You know, not all "gaming girls" can be bold. I have met a few that wish I had ask them out. Some met my wife and goes "I wish you asked me out" well.. what is done is done

and guess what? even with that knowledge, we are still friends and hang out (and glad my wife is not a jealous type either) Human beings are known to fear the unknown and tend to make up stuff to explain that fear, but you know, there are rewards (either way) when you take the plunge.

But do what you will. You ask us the hints, many of us were in your shoes once or twice or more than I can count, but if I let myself defeat myself, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Sep 20, 2011#152

Hailey Knight

Chibi's got a point, Norris. Don't go blaming her for not making the first move. She might be more shy about this kind of thing than you are. Your delay is only keeping her from the man you could smell like.

Sep 20, 2011#153

Shegokigo

Norris said:
Well that is flat out insulting. I didn't destroy my ex. I haven't destroyed any of my closest friends. It is unfair for strangers on the internet to judge my worth as a romantic partner based on thread. I'm a damn nice guy, a sweetheart, and a supportive boyfriend. One of the big problems of my last relationship is that I lived too much for her and not enough for me. So there. Nyah.

It's unfair of us to judge you based on what you show us? Then how are we supposed to formulate an opinion on you? I'm going 100% by what you've put out there, there's no way for us to know anythingelse.

Did you really end that with "So there"? See what I mean about the image you put out there?
(seriously though, thread hiberation ftw)

Sep 20, 2011#154

Chibibar

Norris said:
Well that is flat out insulting. I didn't destroy my ex. I haven't destroyed any of my closest friends. It is unfair for strangers on the internet to judge my worth as a romantic partner based on thread. I'm a damn nice guy, a sweetheart, and a supportive boyfriend. One of the big problems of my last relationship is that I lived too much for her and not enough for me. So there. Nyah.

To be fair mate, a lot of the content on this thread sounds very depressing. You gave us a scenario, we gave some possible solution/outcome, and you counter them via negative vibes (if that is the right term) you analyze all the scenario given and turn it to negative. Some of us went down that similar road and know how that feel sometimes. I am not doubting that you are not sweet/nice guy, but those type tend to be most self defeating cause they ARE trying to be the "good guy" or "good enough" for the girl.

I got a secret to tell ya, we will NEVER be "perfect" in any scenario, but we can be good enough and be good to each other.

Sep 20, 2011#155

Norris

Quotemander Prime said:
Chibi's got a point, Norris. Don't go blaming her for not making the first move. She might be more shy about this kind of thing than you are. Your delay is only keeping her from the man you could smell like.

No worries, I'm not blaming her. Just expressing a general frustration at the cultural conventions that make it harder for those of us who lack confidence, on both sides of the gender aisle.

Shegokigo said:
It's unfair of us to judge you based on what you show us? Then how are we supposed to formulate an opinion on you? I'm going 100% by what you've put out there, there's no way for us to know anythingelse.

It is one thing to say "Gee Norris, you sound kind of messed up. Have you ever considered therapy?" and "Stay the hell away from anyone with a vagina, you will destroy them with your horribleness". One is rational. The other is making a gigantic leap.

Did you really end that with "So there"? See what I mean about the image you put out there?
(seriously though, thread hiberation ftw)

Well it was meant somewhat jokingly. I didn't know how to end it after that, and it sounded kind all haughty in my head when I read it back so...yeah. Levity fail.

I'm not going to let posts directed at me go unanswered, but I'm not exactly in love with this thread.

Sep 20, 2011#156

Chibibar

Norris: why lack the confidence? You got a good platform to work off from. You both like many similar things. Heck, I would probably pick a movie you both like and just ask her to go see it like a date! don't have to be movie picture perfect. Two people enjoying a movie. Maybe go see a show in your area. A play that you might like. Heck the first "date" doesn't even have to be a date, just two people hanging out and have fun. If you feel that you have some compatibility (just you and her) then maybe how about going on a 2nd one but call it "a date"

It is not like that any of us is forcing you to go stone cold (well I was via giving example, but that takes a lot of confidence) you got some road maps and pointers saying "Ask her out!"

but if you want to play a scenario, I'll give you one.
What IF you found someone else? What if you found a girl that you did manage to ask out, and this girl who said "why not ask a nerdy girl out?" was meant for her? She might get jealous and you end up losing her anyways cause she lose you to someone else that she maybe hoping to date YOU. Ever think about that?

Sep 20, 2011#157

strawman

Please keep your hands, head, arms, and legs inside the threads at all times. Do not at any time attempt to stop a moving thread with your body. Wait until the thread comes to a complete stop before dismounting. If a thread appears to be trackless, pointless, obscene, or serene, you do not need to adjust your browser - you are observing the thread in the raw.

Thank you for choosing Halforums, and please come again!

Sep 20, 2011#158

ThatNickGuy

One last attempt and then I'm thread hibernating, too.

Norris said:
159 people saying "This is GREAT!" doesn't tell you nearly as much as 13 people saying "here is what was wrong with this book". Most of those negative reviews still said the book had the potential to be helpful, but they felt that it was too shallow. A recurring theme was that they felt the book was more about how to hide depression under a layer of positivity than deal with it. Bottom line - I really don't feel I have as big a problem as you guys perceive this as. It doesn't upset my life. Hell, depending what you view as "symptoms", it has been around so long that I wouldn't be "me" without it.

Again, not only are you focusing on the negative (a mere 10%, which is like saying 1/10 people didn't like Dark Knight) but it's flying in the face of nearly unanimously positive reviews. So, I'm guessing you didn't see Dark Knight because of the 10% of criticisms as well, huh?

They clearly read the book wrong if they thing that it's about hiding depression under a layer of positive thinking.

The whole idea behing cognitive theory is not in hiding under positive thinking, but in changing your own thoughts into positive thinking. It's not hiding or tricking anything, but changing. There was literally a moment where, just as I read a paragraph and thought "This is bullshit" or something, the very next paragraph said, "Now, you may have just thought that this is ridiculous." The very definition of cognitive therapy is retooling how you think, how negative thinking affects your mood and how you can gradually change that thinking.

As for "ALL" 159 people saying "This is great!"? BULL. FUCKING. SHIT. I just looked again and the first ten 5-star reviews? Several paragraphs with some pretty personal stories on how it helped them. And hang on, let me hit the second page. Nope. Still at least a paragraph explaination. So, you skimmed the reviews in a rush and made an on-the-spot assumption through your negative thinking filter (Distortion: Jumping to Conclusions, Mental Filter, and Magnification)

...or you're just blatantly trying to lie to my face so you can continue in this negative thinking while I'm honestly trying to help you.

Yeah, I'm done. Someone should just lock this thread and put it out of our misery.

Sep 20, 2011#159

Chibibar

Norris: you know something? I can almost say some of us on this forum were in your similar shoes one time or another (myself included) Yea I had crap too, but you think that is gonna stop me? I know I said I was not gonna post anymore, but I can't help it. I see a bit of my old old self in you and it scares me that people out there who are not turning themselves around. Like any human being, I do have dark tendencies and misgiving. I do have a dark gloom over me from my past, but instead of wallow in it (cause I will be by myself doing it no one else is gonna join me) it is a boring and lonely place.

I think Mrs. M thinks you may not be a match cause the attitude you are showing now (again we are going by what you tell us) she is looking out for you as a friend. I think you should take Chad's advice and talk to her about this on personal level. She may be right that at your CURRENT situation/attitude it would end up bad, but you know what? people can change IF you want to change.

By the responses we see here, it "seems" that you don't want to change not even in the slightest. I tell you something, you are in a situation that some nerdy guys would LOVE to be in but doesn't get the chance. You have a chance to go out with a nice girl with similar interest. There are tons of people out there who may never really have that chance and just "get what is available or out there" for them.

In no-way-or-form that I am saying "boink the girl" "marry the girl" or "have tons of babies" or even "riding off the sunset" It is just a date. Take one small step at a time, but alas to many boys/girl someone has to take the first step.

Shego is right about "window of opportunity" She is a nerdy girl which has a huge sea to choose from and she is testing her water with YOU. You let her get away now, and more than likely not have another chance unless something happen or much later in life.

We all come from different walks of life but all end up on this forum one form or another. We have our different views, but deep down we have something similar and keep talking to each other on this forum. To me, it is like virtual extended family. Like my friend told me, you can never win the lottery if you never play. Sure you are right, that it is a billion to one chance, but it is ZERO chance if you never play the game at all.

Sep 20, 2011#160

Shakey

Hopefully you at least let a little of this advice sink in Norris. I wish I had someone say all this to me 10 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of lost time. People may be a bit harsh, but it's because we all see a bit of ourselves in you. We're all nerds/geeks/whatever. We all face or have faced the same insecurities. Just don't let all this good advice go by without a second thought.

Sep 20, 2011#161

Norris

You want honesty, both barrels?

1)I don't feel I suffer from any form of depression or anxiety that rises to the level of needing treatment. I do have trouble with crowds of strangers and sometimes, yes, I get really despairingly sad. But more often than not, I'm pretty happy. Pretty calm. You disagree with me. That is your right. But you don't know me from a stranger on the street. I read those positive reviews and think "wow, that's a bit more drastic than I need". I listened to a Prince song ("Baby I'm A Star") on the bus to class and felt a bajillion times better by getting into the mindset of 'You might not know it now/baby, but I are/I'm a/STAR!". Because, while the people around me may not know it, I'm a pretty cool person and fuck them if they can't figure that out.
2) I don't want to change how I think. This has been the way I think since I was 12 or so. If I change it, get rid of the compulsive planning and constant risk/reward evaluations, I would cease to be me. I am the collection of my interests, my experiences, and my issues. Would my life be less stressful if I was more "normal"? Probably. But I wouldn't be me!

ThatNickGuy said:
Yeah, I'm done. Someone should just lock this thread and put it out of our misery.

Your misery? I've been told I don't deserve to have the happiness of a relationship until I fix something I don't think is broken. I've been told that not having a girl's number and not being in a position to just drop by her apartment in the middle of the week is making excuses. The only reason I haven't quit this thread is some strange sense of personal honor/politeness.

@Shakey - Don't worry. While I do get defensive, I do read everything. I've put that book TNG recommended on my amazon wishlist. I've sent an e-mail to myself to remind me to look into my policy when I have time. Because there will come a day where I am at a low ebb and decided to try at least on of those things. Whether I will want to follow through on it when I feel better, I can't say.

@Chibi - No worries, I'm definitely locking the S-Foils into attack position. Something will be done, that much I can promise.

Sep 20, 2011#162

Shakey

Norris said:
Your misery? I've been told I don't deserve to have the happiness of a relationship until I fix something I don't think is broken. I've been told that not having a girl's number and not being in a position to just drop by her apartment in the middle of the week is making excuses. The only reason I haven't quit this thread is some strange sense of personal honor/politeness.

You've misunderstood the advice given. Not much else to say.

Sep 20, 2011#163

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
This has been the way I think since I was 12 or so. If I change it, get rid of the compulsive planning and constant risk/reward evaluations, I would cease to be me.

You're reacting now because people think there's a problem with your attitude which is clearly getting in your way, and your reason for defending it is because you thought that way since you were 12? Yes, never move on from when you were 12.

There's really nothing left to say, people. We're giving dating advice to someone who hasn't moved on from middle school. There's so much more good advice that could be given against not only that mentality, but the idea that Norris would cease to be him if he changed from being 12, but it will all go to waste.

Norris: This underlines how much you need to see someone, but if you don't, the only one losing is you.

I go back to my earlier post; I'm glad you won't be asking this girl out.

Sep 20, 2011#164

Chibibar

Norris said:
You want honesty, both barrels?

1)I don't feel I suffer from any form of depression or anxiety that rises to the level of needing treatment. I do have trouble with crowds of strangers and sometimes, yes, I get really despairingly sad. But more often than not, I'm pretty happy. Pretty calm. You disagree with me. That is your right. But you don't know me from a stranger on the street. I read those positive reviews and think "wow, that's a bit more drastic than I need". I listened to a Prince song ("Baby I'm A Star") on the bus to class and felt a bajillion times better by getting into the mindset of 'You might not know it now/baby, but I are/I'm a/STAR!". Because, while the people around me may not know it, I'm a pretty cool person and fuck them if they can't figure that out.
2) I don't want to change how I think. This has been the way I think since I was 12 or so. If I change it, get rid of the compulsive planning and constant risk/reward evaluations, I would cease to be me. I am the collection of my interests, my experiences, and my issues. Would my life be less stressful if I was more "normal"? Probably. But I wouldn't be me!

.

My question to you, why you would think you wouldn't be you if you were to change yourself for the better? The "angst/goth/dark/oh lonely me" attitude is not a healthy one and can be lonely at times. You may think that is great to be what you are now, but most people would start to regret in late life when things CAN'T change or even too late to change.

But, you came on this thread asking for advice and possibly "evaulate" your situation. Many of us been on that road before and some of us do regret the decision made too late, but I tell ya. Even with statistics and calculating situation can't factor the "human element" people will surprise you even when you may "think" you have 99.9% calculated when given a chance.

Sep 20, 2011#165

strawman

I hope you find this more funny than offensive, but your posts in the first page of this thread have been fed to a markov chain generator and this is what I get back. Add punctuation where you expect it'll be most hilarious:

So the other night I wasnt even sure this girl every day or two Besides I HAVE BEEN OAFISH is what Im saying So yeah Every rule in the book of attracting people I know go dutch fuck the first time they hang out and call it a relationship until the third date and dont consider something a relationship until the third date and dont consider something a relationship Thanks I do want to thank you guys for giving advice Really But it is not like I see this girl I got along with great on a stack of comics that I would even pick up that the time she said this is the reason Id like to be specific I have hung out with them like five times since school started back up this month One of the two roommates is single I met her those are all things Im in to and NONE OF IT came up in the hours her Mrs M and RoomieWithABoyfriend were off in their own little conversation Single Roomie and I swear on a stack of comics that I thought I could do better going forward She agreedand then she said this was pretty much the first time we had had a friend once already in the book of attracting people I HAVE BEEN OAFISH is what Im saying it is not like I see this girl I got along with great on a date date just yetbut shes an art student and a half to figure my ex was a Twihard and a Gleek and that I didnt do anything super creepy blocked me on FB and has refused to speak to me Apparently this shit is easy for everyone else but I have hung out with them like five times since school started back up this month One of the two roommates is single I met her those are all things Im in to and NONE OF IT came up in the Navy is over if feasible to a minimum thankyouverymuch Last nerdy girl to ask her to join me and ask if I had read Snow Crash Fair enough Im not naive enough to presume such a thing would happen here it is a nerd Shes a big Doctor Who Earlier that night she borrowed a BUNCH of my DCnU s She owns Firefly on DVD I referred to thought viruses on the drive home and she asked if I had read Snow Crash digs Star Trek loved XMen First Class reads TV Tropes etc To show how off my game I was when I met her last year because I dared to ask her to go check out ArtPrize with me If she says no or brings the other roomie or whatever then she likely ISNT INTERESTED While the window can shut quickly I know a girl I got along with great on a date date just yetbut shes an art student and a city wide art exhibitioncontest starts on Wednesday I wanna check it out this weekend Mrs M and RoomieWithABoyfriend were off in their own little conversation Single Roomie and I were talking We were at the end of it Shego I meant I am old fashioned about dating OK please take this down a notch OK Im asking for fucking advice not fucking orders Until Friday night I was thinking of asking her why shes been single for three years as subtle way of divining the situation If she says no or brings the other roomie or whatever then she said this was pretty much the first place It took me like a month and a half to figure my ex dug me and she had a friend so this seems like an illogical fucking leap to me again ended up making me more confident Reminded me that means being incredibly open about my MANY unattractive self esteem issues my positively filthy sense of humor etc Ive even managed to accidentally say insensitive things about adoption shes adopted several times I HAVE BEEN ALREADY BEHAVING LIKE A RESIDENT OF THE FRIEND ZONE EVERY TIME IVE SEEN HER And for me that not every rejection feels like being dumped after a year relationship EDIT New advice I was thinking of asking her why shes been single for three years as subtle way of divining the situation If she asks why I ask or what I mean which seems likely I tell her honestly that since shes a good night kiss when I drop you off Yes Im old fashioned about dating OK please take this down a notch OK Im asking for fucking advice not fucking orders Until Friday night I was hanging out THE POSSIBLE SIGNAL While Mrs M has people coming in from out of town and is therefore unavailable Ask her to go check out ArtPrize with me If she asks why I ask or what I needed to do was find a really nerdy girl I assumed it was by choice her last break up was baaaad Good idea or bad idea So the other roomie or whatever then she said this was pretty much the first time we had had a friend so this seems like an illogical fucking leap to me since So yeah Dont want that or anything remotely LIKE that to happen a long time from now and they dont have to think about For me it is something that is going to happen a long time from now and they dont have to think about For me it is something that is going to happen a long time from now and they dont have to think about parents deaths To most somethings it is a real worry in my world It is also important to note that the time she said what I needed to do was find a really nerdy girl I wouldnt be able to comfortably visit my best friends apartment ever

The reason I used your text and thread is because I'm afraid to do it to my own.

Sep 20, 2011#166

Hailey Knight

Norris portrayed himself as Ben Stiller's character from Along Came Polly and thought that would go over well.
Added at: 22:05

stienman said:
I hope you find this more funny than offensive, but your posts in the first page of this thread have been fed to a markov chain generator and this is what I get back. Add punctuation where you expect it'll be most hilarious:

The reason I used your text and thread is because I'm afraid to do it to my own.

I don't know what the hell I just read.

Sep 20, 2011#167

Chibibar

As for think of what you is "you"
When I was 5 I thought I was on top of the world
My world came crashing down in hell from 5-12
at 12 I was angry with the world
at 13 I met a person who wouldn't give up on me
at 14 I change
at 16 I was much less angry and interact with the world instead of fighting against it
at 20 I party like there is no tomorrow, flunk out of school, work full time
at 26 got into a major car accident change my life
at 27 met my wife
at 32 settle my life by buying a house (which totally change a lot of things since roaming/moving is not an easy option anymore)
now at 38 I look back that I was stupid at 12 and 20
I'm sure when I hit 50 things will look different.

Have I cease to be me? never. I still love games, I love to read, I love mystery and romance. That has never change. I continue to read what I like, listen to music I like and do things what I life. The only thing change is that I am no longer alone cause I chose NOT to be alone.

You say that you have a certain thinking since you are 12, when people are 12-19 most have no idea what they want. FEW do, but many don't. They think they know, but you be surprise how age and situation can change a person.

Once you see all your friends married off and have children and no time for their single friends (in my circle we only have a few left unlike when we were 20s) things change. When my friends have kids and move away, they don't have time to play games and do stuff. Priority changes, thing changes, but that doesn't make less of YOU.

Sep 20, 2011#168

Biannoshufu

this is both advice and oddly what watching this thread feels like. "Get back up" and " car wreck."

Sep 20, 2011#169

Norris

Quotemander Prime said:
You're reacting now because people think there's a problem with your attitude which is clearly getting in your way, and your reason for defending it is because you thought that way since you were 12? Yes, never move on from when you were 12.

That ain't what I meant, and you know it. But in case you don't - at the age of 12, I went from happy and oblivious child to quasi-adult who understood how the consequences of my actions impacted others and myself, not just immediately but in the long term. I began to behave accordingly. I have grown and changed of course, with more depth to that understanding and whatnot, but 12 is when I began maturing into my adult personality. The core of who I grew up to be, as it were.

I would say "I have been this way for as long as I can remember", but I can remember being an oblivious three year old whose only worry was when the new episode of Batman was on. I'm not saying I have the same damned priorities or interests I did when I was 12. I'm saying that my adult personality formed then, I've been the sarcastic, slightly strange, somewhat tense, but ultimately kind and oddly charming guy I am ever since. To change how I think on a basic level renders me not the person people know.

Shakey said:
You've misunderstood the advice given. Not much else to say.

How so? Shego and Sin flat out told me I should not be dating anyone until I get therapy I don't think I need. When I explained why the in person approach wouldn't work right this second, I was told to stop making excuses. Where did I misunderstand that "advice"?

Sep 20, 2011#170

LittleSin

We never grow up. Saying you matured into your adult personality at 12 years old is bullshit. Again, WE NEVER GROW UP.

Or, should I say, we never stop growing. I believe you when you say you think you're fine the way you are...but I also find that belief chilling. No one should ever be 100% satisfied with themselves. A person should strive to excel, to make them selves better, to try something different even if that something means gonig against what you are 'comfortable' with.

I actually feel sad for you...you sound lonely and stuck in a place you don't want to escape from, surrounded by a cloud of cynisism.

Sep 20, 2011#171

Shakey

Norris said:
How so? Shego and Sin flat out told me I should not be dating anyone until I get therapy I don't think I need. When I explained why the in person approach wouldn't work right this second, I was told to stop making excuses. Where did I misunderstand that "advice"?

They just thought you should sort out the crap in your life yourself, and not expect a relationship to fix it. But that's just me talking about someone elses post. If you really want to talk about what you have to possibly face if you continue on the path I went, which is what I see in you, PM me. I don't want you to feel you have to defend yourself in front of the whole forum. Or PM Nick, he's probably a better person to talk to.

Sep 20, 2011#172

Chibibar

While you may not think you need therapy, you need some sort of outside help of some sort. Maybe the word Therapy has a "bad" association with it. I am not saying you sit on a couch spending thousands of dollars or sit in a room of people who have it worst than you comparing life stories.

Therapy is helping you cope/change/alter the way of life for the better. If you think your life is "perfect" in your calculating ways and have understanding of consequences of your action on others, you wouldn't even post this thread to begin with.

It is some inner voice asking for help on the ID level, but your conscious self doesn't think you need it. Do you know that by your inaction you could inadvertently hurt people also? It seems like you are trying to "save the world" around you (note I didn't say SAVE THE WORLD, just your little world), but I gotta tell ya, even the wisest man can't "calculate" everything even the famous Dr. Phil who "suppose" to know relationship

So unless you have a Ph.D or some of savant in human psychology, your calculation is only limit by your limited experience and what you observe (real or unreal in this case). If I were to take my experience of being dump at a school dance in front of all my "friends" and heart ripped out at 13 gonna dictate my life I wouldn't be the person I am today. I probably won't even be married, but I cast that aside and chalk up experience on what NOT to do and do better. Keep at it. in statistic, the more you "do it" the better the odds are. By not playing at all, your odds of anything is close to zero

Sep 20, 2011#173

Norris

LittleSin said:
We never grow up. Saying you matured into your adult personality at 12 years old is bullshit. Again, WE NEVER GROW UP.

Or, should I say, we never stop growing. I believe you when you say you think you're fine the way you are...but I also find that belief chilling. No one should ever be 100% satisfied with themselves. A person should strive to excel, to make them selves better, to try something different even if that something means gonig against what you are 'comfortable' with.

This time last year, my base assumption was that people would dislike me so I should just leave them alone. This year, I have made strong acquaintances (potential friends) where available....by just starting conversations and introducing myself.

This time last year, I would try to wait a week between conversations with Mrs. M. Now, not so much.

This time last year, I would never have thought of asking a girl out. Now, I am working on it.

I am trying to grow, trying to change, trying to self improve. Always. But there comes a point in your life where you quit being the oblivious child you were and start to become the adult you will be. The time when the foundations harden. That is what I am referring to. I am not, as you guys seem to think, trapped at a mental age of 12 nor do I think I am perfect. To use an analogy, my dad is happy with our house but that doesn't mean he doesn't rearrange furniture or remodel rooms when it becomes appropriate.

Or I can like myself without thinking myself perfect. You're supposed to like yourself and see the room for improvement. Which I do.

I actually feel sad for you...you sound lonely and stuck in a place you don't want to escape from, surrounded by a cloud of cynisism.

And you are wrong. I have more people who love me now than I have had in years, more friends I can count on and that can count me. Rarely does a day go by where I don't talk to someone I consider a friend. I'm less nerved out by...well, everything now than I have been since graduating high school. I've managed to chill the fuck out and really make some gains lately. Getting dumped threw me down a darker pit of despair and cynicism than I'd ever been down before, but it also forced me to climb out of it myself. Not have a girlfriend pull me out. Not just get used to it down there. but climb out.

In short...thank you guys, really, for trying to help. But you don't me, you don't know my mind, and you don't my story. So yeah. This whole thing was me in a mode I hadn't been in in months. Deep breath, chill the fuck out, picked a course of action. I will probably go check out ArtPrize with her on Saturday. I will take it from where.

Shakey said:
They just thought you should sort out the crap in your life yourself, and not expect a relationship to fix it.

I don't. I expect a relationship to make me generally happy. I'm a romantic, I like being able to brighten someone's day with a simple text, I like surprising someone with gifts, I like cuddling, I just like being in love. I don't expect it to be a cure all. I need to work to make sure that I don't treat it as such (kind of did that last time, coulda gone better that). If I waited to get all my crap sorted, I'd be dead before I started dating again.

Sep 20, 2011#174

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
This time last year, my base assumption was that people would dislike me so I should just leave them alone. This year, I have made strong acquaintances (potential friends) where available.

Self-betrayer.

Sep 20, 2011#175

Shakey

I honestly hope it works out for you. It didn't for me, but good on you if it does.

Sep 20, 2011#176

Cajungal

I promised myself I would read something not school related tonight. Both glad and sorry I chose this.

Sep 20, 2011#177

Norris

Shakey said:
I honestly hope it works out for you. It didn't for me, but good on you if it does.

Thank you. I look at where I was last year and where I am today and I can't help but think that I'm doing something at least half right.

I'm think of getting "You might not know it, baby, but I are - I'm a...STAR!" tattooed on me. That song seriously helps me get into a positive head space.

Cajungal said:
I promised myself I would read something not school related tonight. Both glad and sorry I chose this.

Back on topic, signal or no? Opinion?

Sep 20, 2011#178

Chad Sexington

Norris said:
Back on topic, signal or no? Opinion?

This... has... got to be a joke. You're not seriously asking someone this now. Because... I mean... And then you... And we... And the...

Whytheface.

Sep 20, 2011#179

Norris

Chad Sexington said:
This... has... got to be a joke. You're not seriously asking someone this now. Because... I mean... And then you... And we... And the...

Whytheface.

It is the original topic of the thread. So yeah. But no, I'm not asking seriously, because I already decided on a course of action.

Sep 20, 2011#180

Gagaoohlala

So...... My opinion is your friend may be holding you back. Either intentionally or unintentionally. Either mrs m
Wants you to be her friend forever and is consciously or unconciously keeping you single and at her whim, or she cares so much about you that she is afraid of you getting hurt. Either way, holding you back.

In my opinion a possibility.... Not knowing her or you just throwing it out there.

Sep 20, 2011#181

Chibibar

You know, You are right, we don't know you, but I am not like how at first you "try to ask for advice" and then on your last post, kinda feel like a spit on all our faces. (that is what I think)

Granted, I can't tell emotions from a sentence, but the choice of words and responses seems a bit.... harsh. I think that is why a lot of people are taken back. I can personally tell you, all my advice is from my own heart and experience. You may not know 100% of me, but on my life stories, I say a good 70% to maybe even 80% most of you can peg me down pretty good knowing from all the angles and where I'm from.

I feel like this is more of a test of your own amusement really. You gave us a small bit of scenario and let us fill in the blanks, but told us the blanks are all wrong and then fill it with different blanks and stories and we adjust and then you change it up by going another direction.

I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm being played while I'm trying to be sincere, but after 6 pages, it seems that you have a handle on things in the first place and you are just "testing out" instead of asking for genuine answers cause most of the answer given are good, but you just don't like it.

I was my hands of it. I don't like people playing mind games and I don't have time to deal with people who don't really want to be help. I am willing to give up my time and personal experience hoping to help people really need help and be helped by people who are genuinely wanted to help.

but if you just want to play mind games with me, I am not playing.
Added at: 22:18

Norris said:
It is the original topic of the thread. So yeah. But no, I'm not asking seriously, because I already decided on a course of action.

And this is the reason why I post what I post in the end. it was just a "game" to you. I am sorry you have to do this for your personal sick amusement (from what I can see since you already decided) instead of people who are really wanting to help.

Sep 20, 2011#182

Cajungal

YES would be my opinion.

That said, I don't enjoy giving or receiving signals myself and find the whole flirting dance exhausting and unnecessary. It wastes time that could be spent doing the actual fun stuff. Like... scrapbooking.

Sep 20, 2011#183

Norris

I reread the thread a couple of hours ago Chibi. I only ever asked 'is that a signal'. I didn't ask for people to weigh in on my mental health. I had made my decision about the original question on page three. I do appreciate your posts in particular, because you've been very respectful throughout this whole thread. I apologize if I'm coming off as playing games.

Still, I have no one to blame but myself for the road this thread went down. I'm sorry, I should have kept things more focused on the original concept. Something put me in a mood yesterday. I kind of...I don't know. Went back in time a year.

Sep 20, 2011#184

Biannoshufu

So from "need dating advice" to "you don't know me" in six pages.

I think it's time for an after party.

Booze on at my house!

Sep 20, 2011#185

Norris

Chibibar said:
And this is the reason why I post what I post in the end. it was just a "game" to you. I am sorry you have to do this for your personal sick amusement (from what I can see since you already decided) instead of people who are really wanting to help.

Re-read the thread dude. I flat out say on page two that I decided on how to approach Mads. I stick to that fucking plan for the rest of the thread. However, the thread then moved to examining the motives behind my initial indecision. I came to a decision...BECAUSE OF OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD.

Biannoshufu said:
So from "need dating advice" to "you don't know me" in six pages.

GOD FUCKING DAMN IT! I asked for advice on whether or not a girl gave me a hint she'd be interested in a date, not whether or not I need fucking therapy! You guys were very helpful on the former, but seemed really interested in helping unbidden with the latter.

Sep 20, 2011#186

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
Re-read the thread dude. I flat out say on page two that I decided on how to approach Mads. I stick to that fucking plan for the rest of the thread. However, the thread then moved to examining the motives behind my initial indecision. I came to a decision...BECAUSE OF OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD.

Operation: Facebook is underway, people. Learn2Read, newbs.

Sep 20, 2011#187

Biannoshufu

Sep 20, 2011#188

Norris

Quotemander Prime said:
Operation: Facebook is underway, people. Learn2Read, newbs.

Oh shush. She's already messaged me back saying she would be interested in checking out AP with me assuming she's not buried under homework (which is reasonable for a college student).

Sep 20, 2011#189

Chibibar

Norris said:
Re-read the thread dude. I flat out say on page two that I decided on how to approach Mads. I stick to that fucking plan for the rest of the thread. However, the thread then moved to examining the motives behind my initial indecision. I came to a decision...BECAUSE OF OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD.

I did re-read it. You were asking advice in the beginning and many gave advice base on the original situation given.
BUT you brought on different issues like why it wouldn't work and different anxieties you have and couple of baggage. While you may not think it is related, to people who date a lot, got dumped a lot (like me) or been in soooo many situation in the friend zone (again me) what you say in each post shows a little bit of yourself.

This of course change the course of the thread to adjust to new info given. Again, I use statistics (since that is your method) you can only predict with what information you have (hence statistic) but as you enter more variables, the situation changes, the answers changes/adjusted according to the new info.

People here are trying to help you and not hinder you, but you don't seem to see it. Yes, we DON'T know you cause you don't give all the info, but what little info you gave, it is scary to some people (like me) cause I HAVE been down that path

I have face near death
I have fought for my life
I have live in poor
I have been in that dark world
I have seen the emptiness and consequences of my actions
I have been depress enough to wanting to kill myself
I have been too chickenshit to do actually do it (I did poison myself couple of time and do daring stunt hoping to die with a bang) but no luck
I do have anxiety attack once in a while where I can't control myself.
I have been down that dark road and I don't like it.

When I read each of your "reasoning" I see that little darkness in me also and I do not WISH that on anyone. not even my worst enemies (if I had any) some of us see a little darkness in themselves in you also (at least on how it was presented)

People here ARE trying to help you, but you are getting all defensive about it which I can understand, but you have to understand it is something we see in ourselves and it can be destructive if not kept in check.

The thing is that we want you to have a successful relationship BUT seeing that "hint of darkness" some of us take back the original answer cause if we knew what we know on page 6, we wouldn't give the answer that was given on page 1.

Do you see that?

Sep 20, 2011#190

Biannoshufu

Norris said:
GOD FUCKING DAMN IT!

Sep 20, 2011#191

Chibibar

expanded on the answer:
Lets say we know what we know (at least what is told) about you on page 2- 6.
My answer would be, don't ask her out. Take a little slower cause you may not be ready for such a date. Cause dating can bring a whole new level of stress if you are not prepare for it. You have to be mentally prepare for the best and the worst. And seeing that you have some personal issues, I say, wait a little and move on.

My answer on page 1 NOT knowing what I know now (or think I know from 2-6)
I say ASK her out you dummy.

See how extra information change the situation?

Alas, relationship answer is not a one answer fits all situation. You have to craft the answer to fit the situation at hand and that is what this Forum was trying to do.

Sep 20, 2011#192

Norris

Chibibar said:
The thing is that we want you to have a successful relationship BUT seeing that "hint of darkness" some of us take back the original answer cause if we knew what we know on page 6, we wouldn't give the answer that was given on page 1.

Do you see that?

I do. But that is also why I say that you guys don't know me. You may see a hint of darkness in me, and hell it might even be there, but my friends who I love and trust with my life disagree with you. I'm sorry, but I put those people's opinions above those of anyone on halforums'.

That said, I am very sorry for derailing my own thread. It should have dropped at page two.

If I'm not ready for dating now, I doubt I ever would be. I'd rather take a journey of self improvement with someone by side than alone.

Sep 20, 2011#193

Shakey

mr_thehun said:
is Norris the new Mav?

Sep 20, 2011#194

Chibibar

Norris said:
I do. But that is also why I say that you guys don't know me. You may see a hint of darkness in me, and hell it might even be there, but my friends who I love and trust with my life disagree with you. I'm sorry, but I put those people's opinions above those of anyone on halforums'.

That said, I am very sorry for derailing my own thread. It should have dropped at page two.

That I can respect, but also you don't give us all the info. You only give us bits and pieces here and there and thus we still don't know the whole picture. You being the calculated one should know that. Of course you know your friends better than us. So we can't say if those friends are good or not. There can be "bad friends" who just want to use to for their own personal amusement. I am not saying that your friends are like that, but there are people who are friends for long time and enjoy "messing" with people.

again, any info given, we reflect with our own personal lives and instance that could relate. I always take the path "If I was in your shoes" and try to relate as best as I could with the information given and how it would relate in my life and formulate a decent answer as best as I can from my personal experience.

Your experience is your own and we can never know the full stories unless you happen to tell it all like an open book or have a face to face chats for hours/days to get to know "Who is Norris?"

6 pages is not much, you did gave like 80% dark and 20% good while in reality you may be 20% dark and 80% good but that is not how YOU present to the forum.

Sep 20, 2011#195

Chad Sexington

mr_thehun said:
is Norris the new Mav?

He doesn't:
Hate women
Need to start a union
Irritate everyone all the times always

There's not a speck of Mav to be seen!

Sep 20, 2011#196

Norris

I know. I was in...well, I was all nervous and shit and that really put me into what me an my ex would call being "spirally". Just down further and further down a hole. It wasn't until I spoke to Mrs. M about it that I rediscovered "perspective". By then...things here had gotten way the fuck out of hand because I somehow thought posting while in one of my moods was a good idea.

At the end of the day...yeah, I do have more social phobias and depressive behaviors than I probably should. But I'm trying. Trying real hard to not indulge them. And I slip sometimes. But I am more successful than not.

And the friends I'm talking about haven't steered me wrong yet. I would not be where I am today (and it is leagues above where I was a year ago) without them.

Sep 20, 2011#197

Biannoshufu

chibibar.

you can stop kicking the dead horse now.

Sep 20, 2011#198

Chibibar

Biannoshufu said:
chibibar.

you can stop kicking the dead horse now.

Yea. I'm done now, but I'm Texan. Gotta take the horse to a slaughter house and chop them into steaks and sell them to France

Sep 20, 2011#199

Cajungal

Can I have the hooves? My students need more glue.

Sep 20, 2011#200

Hailey Knight

mr_thehun said:
is Norris the new Mav?

Gods no. I'd have to turn around and defend Norris if someone seriously suggested that.

Sep 20, 2011#201

SpecialKO

For Norris to be the new Mav...well, he'd actually have to be Mav.

Sep 21, 2011#202

SpecialKO

That's how the signals are being blocked!! IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!

Sep 21, 2011#203

Biannoshufu

Tinwhistler said:
How do we know he's not...?

He would need artificial limbs, new skin, and a hell of a lock pick tool se-OH WAIT I AGREE IT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE.

Sep 21, 2011#204

Philosopher B.

Tinwhistler said:
How do we know he's not...?

Because when the clock struck twelve and Heroes was cancelled, Mav turned back into a pumpkin.

Also, does David Nihsen know you're posting his pic around??? :-P

Sep 21, 2011#205

Jay

This is what I feel about this thread.

Sep 21, 2011#206

Tiger Tsang

</lurking> after following this a few days ago and getting caught back up on this tonight . . . This has been one helluva Mega-Troll, or you all are dealing with somebody that has some serious issues. One of which is he won't admit they're serious. *And this is coming from someone with issues of his own, who has been meaning to find the free/cheap therapists in the locale but hasn't

* <lurk>

Sep 21, 2011#207

SpecialKO

Tiger Tsang said:
*And this is coming from someone with issues of his own, who has been meaning to find the free/cheap therapists in the locale but hasn't *

Speaking from personal experience, and it depends where you are, but a lot of therapists/counselors are willing to play ball on price, especially those affiliated with larger therapeutic institutes to handle administration.

When my old grad school insurance stopped, I lost therapy coverage, but I didn't want to have to stop seeing the therapist I had built up a relationship with. So I talked to him and his institute, and they cut my per session fee in half in exchange for losing 15 min out of an hour.

Sep 21, 2011#208

Necronic

The only good thing that has come out of this thread is that I am now going to suggest therapy in every other thread.

Sep 21, 2011#209

strawman

Tiger Tsang said:
</lurking> And this is coming from someone with issues of his own, who has been meaning to find the free/cheap therapists in the locale but hasn't * <lurk>

Start your own thread. If we can't fix you, we'll at least enjoy screwing you up more.

Sep 21, 2011#210

Norris

I will be going to ArtPrize with just her sometime this weekend. Just me and her.

I'm really trying not to squee, but I'd just realized I could afford to buy a nerf shotgun so everything is coming up Norris tonight.

Sep 22, 2011#211

Espy

Sweet. Good for you man.

Sep 22, 2011#212

ThatNickGuy

I'm returning back to my original advice:

Drop trou and ask her, "So how about it?"

Sep 22, 2011#213

strawman

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm returning back to my original advice:

Drop trou and ask her, "So how about it?"

Hey, keep up, he's part of the facebook generation. Text "When can I tap that?".

Sep 22, 2011#214

Biannoshufu

</reference>

Sep 22, 2011#215

Ravenpoe

Tinwhistler said:
The funny thing? I've actually had that work once.

That's because you were wearing ziggy boxer shorts. Bitches love ziggy.

Sep 22, 2011#216

Chibibar

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm returning back to my original advice:

Drop trou and ask her, "So how about it?"

I did that twice at an anime convention with some hot cosplayer...

It worked

Sep 24, 2011#217

Hailey Knight

I have no self-control.

Norris said:
On a side note - I loaned (and will continue to loan) a bunch of my DC comics to the cute girl who may or may not be into me. So yeah.

But what if she doesn't like one of them?

Sep 24, 2011#218

LordRendar

She better be seeing a Therapist then.

Sep 24, 2011#219

fade

Wow. I avoid relationship threads like the plague. Something compelled me to read this one from start to finish though. By "something", I mean Nick's reply on the last page.

Summary:
Norris: Is this girl giving me signals?
Forum: Yes. (original topic concluded)
Norris: But, I have low self-esteem
Forum: Ha, you! We've all been there. Best thing you can do is just ask her out.
Norris: You don't know me! Stop giving me "orders" cleverly disguised as advice!
Forum: Whoa buddy, that's how advice works. (fun fact: advice comes in the form of things you should do. Otherwise, they'd just call it "random talking")
Norris: But SURPRISE! You didn't know this stuff about me or the girl! Dodge, parry, riposte!
Forum: Wow, you're right, that is bad. Maybe you could try professional help.
Norris: No way, it's normal. Besides, my dad's depression could totally beat up my depression. Also, I'm not eating tonight because there are kids starving in China.
Forum: Huh. Okay, how about this advice then?
Norris: STOP GIVING ME ORDERS. Your so-called advice doesn't confirm my previous decisions or allow me to live my life completely unchanged from before I asked for it.
Forum: Well...screw you then.
Norris: I only keep checking this thread out of honor.

Sep 24, 2011#220

Hailey Knight

LordRendar said:
She better be seeing a Therapist then.

Bitches love therapists?

Also, thank you, Fade.

Sep 24, 2011#221

Shegokigo

@Fade, I don't think I've seen a better post in ages. Kudos good sir.

Sep 24, 2011#222

figmentPez

Shegokigo said:
@Fade, I don't think I've seen a better post in ages. Kudos good sir.

Ditto.

Sep 24, 2011#223

Norris

Here's a more accurate version:

Norris: Is this girl giving me signals?
Forum: Yes. (original topic concluded)
Norris: But, I have low self-esteem, and hugely bad experiences asking out girls. (shouldn'ta said that)
Forum: Man the fuck up, stop being a pussy, ask that bitch out.
Norris: Don't fucking tell me to man up, that isn't what I fucking asked for.
Forum: Just ask her out then.
Norris: I don't really want to lose out on having friends on the off chance of fleeting happiness from dating.
Forum: Maybe you should try therapy for what are clearly self esteem issues and possibly depression/anxiety.
Norris: Its not really as bad as it I made it sound. The right song can turn my day around for chrissakes. Besides, my dad's had real problems and did great for four decades without counseling. I will be fine without counseling.
Forum: Go to therapy man. You can do better than just "fine". Come on. It will help.
Norris: IT REALLY ISN'T THAT BAD. Stop telling me I need therapy. I disagree. People who know me better than you generally disagree. At any rate, I'm going to hang out with the girl one-on-one this weekend. Fingers crossed.
Forum: Well...screw you then. About the therapy stuff. Good luck with the girl, but we doubt you'll be successful because of your issues.
Norris: Fair enough.

You guys behaved reasonably based on the information I gave. I got a little too hot under the collar in response. But you don't know my life story, my family's story, etc. Would therapy/counseling get me where I want to be a little faster than working on it myself? Fuck yes. Does that mean I should do it? Not in my estimation. I've gotten a lot better in the last year, something you guys would have no way of knowing. No counseling, no self help books, no prescriptions, just me reframing things, having the occasional epiphany, and talking to friends when I need to. And it has been incredibly satisfying. Leave the couch open for someone who really need its.

Seriously, how would you guys have reacted if I started a thread saying "OMG you guys, my life is teh suck!"? In my decade of message boarding, this is the first time I've ever seen a message board get pissed off at a whiny middle class white boy for saying his problems are just like everyone else's and he's fine. Yes, I do have some problems. Not "on the couch" problems, but "work through them" problems.

Quotemander Prime said:
But what if she doesn't like one of them?

Then she'll quit reading that series. Just like people will quit talking to you indefinitely if you ask them out and they don't like you that way.

Sep 24, 2011#224

Shegokigo

Really? Most of my best female friends came from coming on to them and them not being interested in women.

So anecdotal evidence is anecdotal huh?

Damnit, you keep suckering me into this thread. It really did go how Fade wrote it. Just in your mind it didn't.

HOWEVER: Kudos to you for not running out of the thread like a bitch, you kept your head up, regardless of the posts and continued to defend yourself (even though half the time you were defending against something you didn't read fully). So thumbs up to that.

Sep 24, 2011#225

Norris

Shegokigo said:
Really? Most of my best female friends came from coming on to them and them not being interested in women.

So anecdotal evidence is anecdotal huh?

That is your experience. Losing friends because I came onto them is mine. Three times. Would be unreasonable for someone who's totaled three cars to be afraid of car accidents? Then why is it unreasonable for me to worry about losing a friend like this?

However, it is not like I am letting this worry paralyze me with fear! I'm planning to ask her out if things go well tomorrow. I'm just worried about what the consequences of a no will be.

HOWEVER: Kudos to you for not running out of the thread like a bitch, you kept your head up, regardless of the posts and continued to defend yourself (even though half the time you were defending against something you didn't read fully). So thumbs up to that.

Thanks. I think.

Sep 24, 2011#226

Shegokigo

Your analogy is bad: The way you're acting right now is if you had totaled three cars and now you're afraid to get into a car at all.

I wrote a second line in that first quote you posted btw. It's all about personal experience, you're going to base your opinions on what you've experienced, but to discredit all other advice that is to the contrary and probably massively overwhelming in the opposite of your own experiences is just close minded. I've learned that the hard way a few times, even in threads here on HF. Which is why I cherish this place so much, it opens my eyes when I can't see past my own bloody hands.

It's not unreasonable to worry about losing your friend, it's part of the "danger" of going further with this. It's a risk, everyone's pretty much agreed with that when they offered their advice. However, there is little to no reward for those who live their lives avoiding all risk.

Sep 24, 2011#227

Norris

Shegokigo said:
Your analogy is bad: The way you're acting right now is if you had totaled three cars and now you're afraid to get into a car at all.
...

It's not unreasonable to worry about losing your friend, it's part of the "danger" of going further with this. It's a risk, everyone's pretty much agreed with that when they offered their advice. However, there is little to no reward for those who live their lives avoiding all risk.

I know there isn't a reward for those who do nothing. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that. I'm not doing nothing. I just want to minimize my risk, not avoid it at all. Everyone I've asked about this (we're up to ten+ plus sources, including her roommate/my bestie, if you just count message boards as 1 source) has agreed it sounded it promising. So I'm moving ahead.

If even half those people told me I was crazy for seeing a signal, I wouldn't be moving ahead. Because that goes to 50/50 shot, I don't like those odds. It's my own judgement about women I don't trust, not other people's.

So to stretch my analogy to the breaking point, I'm like a 3 totaler checking the weather before deciding to go do something unnecessary. If the roads are icy and conditions are bad, I stay home.

Sep 24, 2011#228

Adammon

Living by committee seems like a terrible waste of your brain.

Sep 24, 2011#229

LittleSin

50/50 odds aren't good odds? Jesus Christ!

I think 50/50 would be excellent. If I had a 50/50 chance of winning a million dollars by picking between to answers you damn well better believe I am going to attempt to answer.

Sep 24, 2011#230

fade

At this point, everyone is going around in circles. Everybody really does understand your point of view, Norris. Hell, this is a forum full of your compatriots, not radically different people. Presumably, that's why you asked here. We've been through this. Half of us here still sleep in our Star Wars sheets, even those of us who are married or committed, male, female, gay, or straight. This is a bona fide, politically correct slice of nerddom here. The main difference is that you've rejected almost everything that these guys have suggested out in the name of minimizing risk. Fine, we understand that, too. That is the very origin of the "man up" stuff. It's not to be mean--I get the impression you are taking it that way. It's quite the opposite. It's a cheer. Go, buddy! Grab your proverbial balls (or your real ones if it helps)!

On the one hand, you say that "it's not that bad", and on the other, you say that your fear of the risk is keeping you from doing something you want. Well, you know something? It is that bad then. In fact, you've satisfied the definition of a mental illness, which is that it interferes with your desired course of life. This is word passed from my wife, a licensed professional counselor, by the way. Who I met by "manning up" despite my irrational fears of rejection.

I guess what bugged me the most about this thread was that the loads of good advice were either ignored or taken as an outright attack. Which is a shame, because none of it was meant that way, and most of it was good, in no small part because most of us are very much like the you you described.
Added at: 18:59
Oh yeah, and all of us had that fear of rejection because of the potential Very Bad Things that could happen. Sometimes they did. Life goes on. But there's a good chance it could go on with a new partner.

Sep 24, 2011#231

Norris

LittleSin said:
50/50 odds aren't good odds? Jesus Christ!

I think 50/50 would be excellent. If I had a 50/50 chance of winning a million dollars by picking between to answers you damn well better believe I am going to attempt to answer.

If the options are "things get better" or "things stay the same", then yes 50/50 odds are amazing. if the options are "things get better" or "things get a whole lot worse", then they're a huge risk.

fade said:
Oh yeah, and all of us had that fear of rejection because of the potential Very Bad Things that could happen. Sometimes they did. Life goes on. But there's a good chance it could go on with a new partner.

I've spent more hours hanging out with these rommates, mainly at their apartment, than I have spent in most of my classes thus far this semester. The worst case scenario is that I lose that forever. The best case scenario is that I find an amazing woman who I end up spending the rest of my life with. Medium good case scenario is that, regardless of what happen, nothing ends up changing in the long run. Medium bad is that I can't show my face there for a month or two.

When i say it like that, it doesn't sound so bad.

Sep 24, 2011#232

Chibibar

I agree with Fade. In all things in life, there is a chance of failure and chance of success. Now, back to the circle of influence, if your circle is small (which seems to be which means i.e. small groups of friends and pools to date with) That does limit your options.

What some of us saying about "man up" is more change of attitude but not change of you. By taking a risk (even "knowing the odds"), you have a chance of success. Sure the chance of failure is higher (generally) but the reward is much greater when it does succeed. That is what "man up" is all about. Take all those failures, chalk up as experience and move on. The moment you give up, that is when you lose.

As long you keep on trying, you never lose (in long term) There are billions of people on this planet. There is someone out there for you, but you will never find that person if you don't step out of your comfort zone.

Sep 24, 2011#233

Jay

Sep 24, 2011#234

Hailey Knight

So, if Norris doesn't make a move, she's available, yeah?

Sep 24, 2011#235

ThatNickGuy

Quotemander Prime said:
So, if Norris doesn't make a move, she's available, yeah?

Sep 24, 2011#236

Biannoshufu

fade said:
Wow. I avoid relationship threads like the plague. Something compelled me to read this one from start to finish though. By "something", I mean Nick's reply on the last page.

Summary:
Norris: Is this girl giving me signals?
Forum: Yes. (original topic concluded)
Norris: But, I have low self-esteem
Forum: Ha, you! We've all been there. Best thing you can do is just ask her out.
Norris: You don't know me! Stop giving me "orders" cleverly disguised as advice!
Forum: Whoa buddy, that's how advice works. (fun fact: advice comes in the form of things you should do. Otherwise, they'd just call it "random talking")
Norris: But SURPRISE! You didn't know this stuff about me or the girl! Dodge, parry, riposte!
Forum: Wow, you're right, that is bad. Maybe you could try professional help.
Norris: No way, it's normal. Besides, my dad's depression could totally beat up my depression. Also, I'm not eating tonight because there are kids starving in China.
Forum: Huh. Okay, how about this advice then?
Norris: STOP GIVING ME ORDERS. Your so-called advice doesn't confirm my previous decisions or allow me to live my life completely unchanged from before I asked for it.
Forum: Well...screw you then.
Norris: I only keep checking this thread out of honor.

this is the funniest thing I have read here all year. I keep rereading it and giggling.

Oct 11, 2011#237

Norris

Update: Yeah. Not a signal. Still friends but I think I'ma hang back for a week or two.

Oct 11, 2011#238

SpecialKO

Norris said:
Update: Yeah. Not a signal. Still friends but I think I'ma hang back for a week or two.

Good plan. Let things cool off. However, do not just disappear from her sight, you are guaranteed to make things more awkward once you finally see her again. Just don't go out of your way to do stuff together, stay cool and friendly.

In the end, you tried. That's the important thing. And you never know what the future may bring.

Oct 12, 2011#239

Espy

SpecialKO said:
In the end, you tried. That's the important thing. And you never know what the future may bring.

YES. YES. YES.

Oct 12, 2011#240

Norris

SpecialKO said:
In the end, you tried. That's the important thing. And you never know what the future may bring.

With a 1/5 lifetime win/loss record when it comes to asking girls out....I think I do.

Espy said:
YES. YES. YES.

Yeah, because I asked her out I get to feel rejected and sad and sans hope whereas if I hadn't, I could delude myself into thinking she'd say "yes" if only I found the right moment and have hope. Everything's coming up Norris!

Oct 12, 2011#241

Terrik

....or you can move on and apply your energies to other potential candidates since you've already determined whether or not this girl wants to date you.

Oct 12, 2011#242

Shegokigo

With all the respect in the world Norris, that had to be the most pathetic thing I've ever seen written on these forums. That's saying something too btw.

Oct 12, 2011#243

Adammon

Shit, I should have given Norris my Shego armor.

Oct 12, 2011#244

Norris

Shegokigo said:
With all the respect in the world Norris, that had to be the most pathetic thing I've ever seen written on these forums. That's saying something too btw.

You can go into a comic shop, meet a cute girl, ask her out, go on a date, get laid, and decide it is going nowhere serious. I can build an unexpected rapport with a girl, ask her out, and get shot down. I could even get laid in a two and half year committed relationship in which we'd fantasize about sex often. You aren't me. I wish had whatever it is that you have, but I don't.

It seems like every girl my age who I meet, who I hit it off with, who I would be interested in asking out...already has a boyfriend that they started dating while I was still wasting time with my ex. I finally meet one beautiful, intelligent, nerdy girl who is single and her answer to me asking her out is "No thank you." Some people just aren't cut out for relationships. My uncle's never been married, hasn't even had a serious girlfriend in all the time I can remember. He seems happy.

Oct 12, 2011#245

Adammon

Norris said:
My uncle's never been married, hasn't even had a serious girlfriend in all the time I can remember. He seems happy.

I'm sure

Oct 12, 2011#246

Norris

Adammon said:
I'm sure

Well, not happy. He watches FOX News all the time, so he seems angry. But not frustrated in that way.

Oct 12, 2011#247

Shegokigo

I'm not saying that you're me or that you should be ANYONELSE but yourself, but saying that you would rather live in a world of delusional happiness vs taking chance at real happiness (didn't happen this time) is what set me off Norris.

It's unfortunate that you have such low self esteem, because that "whatever" it is that I have? It's confidence. That "whatever" that the majority of women out there are looking for? It's confidence. You being a geek, a gamer, a comic book nerd or the fact that you've been shot down 5 or 500 times has NOTHING to do with why you keep failing. Your self-defeatist attitude is what's failing you, I can tell you 100% that a woman can sense that in a person, without them even opening their mouth.

Oct 12, 2011#248

GasBandit

From what I hear, a 20% success rate is actually higher than most serial womanizers. If you're not concerned too much about quality, you can just cast as wide a net as possible. A 1 in 5 success rate is only a problem if there have only been 5 attempts.
Added at: 18:19
Also - there is ALWAYS a boyfriend on the worthwhile ones. Repeat after me : A boyfriend is not a husband. If he liked it, he should have put a ring on it. A boyfriend is often just a future ex. Statistics show women "cheat" even more than men.

"What's your man got to do with me? I'm not try'na hear that, see?"

Oct 12, 2011#249

strawman

If you and I were best friends, and were sitting on the couch together watching something inane on TV and you said all that, the only thing I could honestly, and heartachingly respond with is, "YOUUUUUU SUUUUUUUUUCK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER WITH THAT ATTITUUUUUUUUDE..." said in a singing tone of voice.

Seriously. It's like talking to a wife beater. "I dunno, have you ever tried, you know, not beating your wife?" "Well, the last 5 times I tried not beating her, only once has she done something right, so it looks like beating her is really my best option."

So, you know, best buds forever, and all that stuff, but still...

"YOUUUUUU SUUUUUUUUUCK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER WITH THAT ATTITUUUUUUUUDE..."singing

And I wish I could stop responding to your despondency, but I know you! I used to be you! It took a figurative two-by-four to my head before I realized that I seriously had to get my act together if I wanted happiness, because it's within your grasp - but you apparently don't want it enough to look past your own nose.

So this girl doesn't want you. Fine. Move on. Find another girl, and ask her out. Rejected? Fine. Move on. Find another girl, and ask her out. Feels a little like an assembly line? GOOD! Keep going until you find one that gives you a chance, then you give her a chance. She breaks your heart? Fine. Move on. Find another girl and ask her out.

There's plenty of fish in the sea, but if you never put your hook in the water, you'll get exactly nothing. If you bait your hook so much the better, but all the bait in the world does you no good if you don't drop your hook in the water and reel it up every chance you get. And every time you see a female, you have a chance. Walk by a girl on the street? GO GET REJECTED! It's amazing what a string of rejections does for you. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to ask out and be rejected by at least one girl EVERY DAY. Complete strangers! People who serve you at the restaurant! The cute girl who's always in the corner of the bookstore/library/coffeeshop! "Hey, would you like to get some coffee/lunch/dessert with me? My treat!"

And to whatever you say to this post, just imagine me saying:

"YOUUUUUU SUUUUUUUUUCK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER WITH THAT ATTITUUUUUUUUDE..."singing

as my official response. No matter what you might say, or could say, the above response fits perfectly.

"YOUUUUUU SUUUUUUUUUCK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER WITH THAT ATTITUUUUUUUUDE..."singing

Oct 12, 2011#250

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
From what I hear, a 20% success rate is actually higher than most serial womanizers. If you're not concerned too much about quality, you can just cast as wide a net as possible. A 1 in 5 success rate is only a problem if there have only been 5 attempts.
Added at: 18:19
Also - there is ALWAYS a boyfriend on the worthwhile ones. Repeat after me : A boyfriend is not a husband. If he liked it, he should have put a ring on it. A boyfriend is often just a future ex. Statistics show women "cheat" even more than men.

"What's your man got to do with me? I'm not try'na hear that, see?"

Not a bad point, Gas. For all the nervous shyness I had, and even Norris-style self-defeatist attitude (when I was 17), my first girlfriend was still one I pulled away from another guy.
Added at: 19:34

Shegokigo said:
With all the respect in the world Norris, that had to be the most pathetic thing I've ever seen written on these forums. That's saying something too btw.

You were absent during Mav's greatest hits, I guess.

Oct 12, 2011#251

Shegokigo

No, I wasn't. That's why I said "That's saying something too btw".

Oct 12, 2011#252

GasBandit

Norris, I'll give you some advice and you can take it for what it is worth, which may be nothing to you. Whenever I'm faced with something I don't want to do, or can't muster the enthusiasm for, I "disassociate" my self from myself. I am not this body, I am a disconnected psionic entity controlling this body. I basically visualize controlling myself from a third person isometric perspective. Do you care if Guybrush Threepwood gets rejected by every girl he asks out? No. Become your own avatar. You are not (your real name here), you are the completely isolated, detached player who is controlling (your real name here). Ok, player, what should this guy do? What's that? Ask out EVERY GIRL IN THE JOINT? There are no consequences. Let's do this.

Oct 12, 2011#253

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Norris, I'll give you some advice and you can take it for what it is worth, which may be nothing to you. Whenever I'm faced with something I don't want to do, or can't muster the enthusiasm for, I "disassociate" my self from myself. I am not this body, I am a disconnected psionic entity controlling this body. I basically visualize controlling myself from a third person isometric perspective. Do you care if Guybrush Threepwood gets rejected by every girl he asks out? No. Become your own avatar. You are not (your real name here), you are the completely isolated, detached player who is controlling (your real name here). Ok, player, what should this guy do? What's that? Ask out EVERY GIRL IN THE JOINT? There are no consequences. Let's do this.

He can't do that; otherwise he won't be himself anymore and then... I don't know, but earlier in the thread he took umbrage to doing anything differently than he would do things because he would lose his identity or become a pod person or some shit like that.

Oct 12, 2011#254

Chad Sexington

I had a bad meal at a restaurant one time, so now I just don't eat. I lost money on that risk, that I'll never get back. Ever again. If I had just skipped the meal, I could've imagined a world of happiness. Oh well, I know tasteless, bland water will never let me down.

Oct 12, 2011#255

Dave

Do you have a fear of eating? That's social anxiety.

If I had to ask out women by climbing up on a tall building and overcoming my fear of heights to ask them out, I'd be single. If he's truly got social anxiety it's not anything he can just blithely ignore or "man up" to.

Oct 12, 2011#256

Tress

Norris, I think you need a new avatar:

Oct 12, 2011#257

Shegokigo

Dave said:
Do you have a fear of eating? That's social anxiety.

If I had to ask out women by climbing up on a tall building and overcoming my fear of heights to ask them out, I'd be single. If he's truly got social anxiety it's not anything he can just blithely ignore or "man up" to.

Yep but he 100% flat out refuses to go to therapy cause he doesn't need it.

Oct 12, 2011#258

strawman

Dave said:
Do you have a fear of eating? That's social anxiety.

If I had to ask out women by climbing up on a tall building and overcoming my fear of heights to ask them out, I'd be single. If he's truly got social anxiety it's not anything he can just blithely ignore or "man up" to.

True. In that case he needs therapy and/or medical care.

:awesome:

Oct 12, 2011#259

Dave

I could get behind that. If he had the money to do so. Most people don't and insurance may or may not pay for that sort of thing.

Oct 12, 2011#260

Hailey Knight

If anything good has come out of this thread, it's the therapy meme.

Oct 12, 2011#261

Norris

1) If she will cheat with you (or quit for you), she will cheat on you (or quit on you). When you're 18-25, when you're a college student, having one or more years in a relationship is as close as most come to being married. They break up after their lives start to go separate directions, but that comes later.
2) I think I messed up a little. Since getting to school, I have met five girls I would have been interested in dating. Three of them already had boyfriends. One of them was crazy. One of them just shot me down. That isn't to say that I haven't met a lot of girls who I am friends/acquaintances or that I find physically attractive, but none of them have interests close enough that we could hold much more than small talk.
3) What is pissing me off most about this situation is just...I'm good enough to be friends with. I'm good enough to be her friend. to go check out ArtPrize with, to go see Rocky Horror with (admittedly, in a group). Why am I not good enough to date? I know she's great, that's why I'm asking her out. So what is wrong with me?

And Shego: I found a reason to go to her apartment, said "simple yes or no, would you like to go out dinner with me sometime, like as a date", she said "no thank you". Where is the fucking defeatism in there? I was hoping like hell she'd say yes. I'd already figured out what ground we hadn't really covered in previous conversations so I wouldn't be too awkward on the date. I'd already had a place, date, and time planned. I thought it would work.
Added at: 01:19

Chad Sexington said:
I had a bad meal at a restaurant one time, so now I just don't eat. I lost money on that risk, that I'll never get back. Ever again. If I had just skipped the meal, I could've imagined a world of happiness. Oh well, I know tasteless, bland water will never let me down.

If you went to the same restaurant (Chez Female), ordered six completely different meals, and got food poisoning all but once, it would be relatively reasonable to quit going to that restaurant, maybe just stick to home cooking for a while if the competition don't excite ya.

Oct 12, 2011#262

Shegokigo

Norris: Why try dating when I can just masturbate to porn everyday

Oh and if you don't know where I'm getting the defeatism, I dunno what to tell you.

Oct 12, 2011#263

strawman

There's a disconnect.

She said, "no thank you" and you turned that into "I am not good enough to date."

It has absolutely nothing to do with you being or not being good enough to date. She doesn't want to have that kind of relationship with you. It doesn't mean anything about your character - love and attraction are not so easily connected with whether you're a good catch or not - especially for women who are often attracted by and repulsed by the weirdest little things.

The fact that you turned the rejection into a personal cross you are carrying around is the defeatism Shego's talking about.

Also, pro-tip, saying "simple yes or no, would you like to go out dinner with me sometime, like as a date" carries a LOT of baggage, and many girls would reject it unless they were specifically attracted to you. Use the wadsworth constant and remove anything that's not necessary. "Want to go out?" would have been soooooooo much better. You might as well have said, "Hey, I need a girlfriend and I've chosen to glom onto you. Go out to dinner with me and your fate is sealed! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Oct 12, 2011#264

Norris

Shegokigo said:
Norris: Why try dating when I can just masturbate to porn everyday

You kid, but my resolution at the start of this school year was either find a girl to ask out or buy a fleshlight by May. I did half of that, it didn't work.

Most of the people I know I planning to marry/have already married their first love. I'm kind of already behind in my social circle.

Shegokigo said:
Oh and if you don't know where I'm getting the defeatism, I dunno what to tell you.

I meant in my approach. I was direct, I was honest, I was shot down. Short of walking in, sweeping her off her feet with a kiss and then saying "You. Me. Thursday at seven. The Coney Place up the road.", I don't think I could have been less out with it. I was nervous, yes, but not in a "this is gonna hurt!" way but in the "They're read 4 out of 5 of the numbers on my lottery ticket" way.

Oct 12, 2011#265

Adammon

I say just take the Iaculus method and date girls too young to know better. Oh wait, no, the ones that are 'mature for their age'.

Oct 12, 2011#266

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
You kid, but my resolution at the start of this school year was either find a girl to ask out or buy a fleshlight by May. I did half of that, it didn't work.

Most of the people I know I planning to marry/have already married their first love. I'm kind of already behind in my social circle.

I thought your social circle was 18-25 year olds who are going to break up after school when they go their separate ways?

Oct 12, 2011#267

sixpackshaker

I'll leave this here...

Oct 12, 2011#268

ThatNickGuy

Norris said:
Most of the people I know I planning to marry/have already married their first love. I'm kind of already behind in my social circle.

There's no such thing as "behind". It's incredibly rare for anyone to follow the exact stereotypical plan of "graduate high school, go right to college, start career, start family." The same goes for relationships.

You're still flipping young, man. I can't remember, but you're like early 20's, right? If that? I knew a guy that didn't even have a serious girlfriend until he was 25. Hadn't gotten laid until then, either. And now? He's living with said girl and they'll likely get married at some point.

My point is, as I said, there's no such thing as "being behind" in your social circle.

Oct 12, 2011#269

LittleSin

Norris said:
1) If she will cheat with you (or quit for you), she will cheat on you (or quit on you). When you're 18-25, when you're a college student, having one or more years in a relationship is as close as most come to being married. They break up after their lives start to go separate directions, but that comes later.

Bollocks, bollocks, BOLLOCKS. If you treat a woman right 95% of the time she will NEVER wander. God damn do I hate this line of thinking among men (and women!). A person is not defined by one things that they have done.

BOLLOCKS.

Oct 12, 2011#270

Norris

stienman said:
There's a disconnect.

She said, "no thank you" and you turned that into "I am not good enough to date."

I am not good enough for her. I do not come up to her standards. There is not enough about me that she likes to warrant a passing grade. What about me is she not attracted to? What is, in her eyes, wrong with me?

The fact that you turned the rejection into a personal cross you are carrying around is the defeatism Shego's talking about.

As it is, I can learn NOTHING from this experience. If I find out "well, you did X and that bugged me", I can avoid doing X next time I meet a girl I like. I can't adapt if I don't know what kills me.

Also, pro-tip, saying "simple yes or no, would you like to go out dinner with me sometime, like as a date" carries a LOT of baggage, and many girls would reject it unless they were specifically attracted to you. Use the wadsworth constant and remove anything that's not necessary. "Want to go out?" would have been soooooooo much better. You might as well have said, "Hey, I need a girlfriend and I've chosen to glom onto you. Go out to dinner with me and your fate is sealed! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!"

She and I have gone out to dinner before, 100% platonically. Ergo, I need to specify "date". And "simple yes or no" means I don't want "yes, but I'm just so busy with school I don't think it's a good idea", or "no, but I'm a weird thing right now", or "you're a really nice guy but...", or "maybe".

Oct 12, 2011#271

ThatNickGuy

Did she specifically tell you you weren't good enough for her or up to her standards? Or did she just say 'no'? Because if it was just the latter, that's the Mind Reading Cognitive Disorder.

Oct 12, 2011#272

Hailey Knight

LittleSin said:
Bollocks, bollocks, BOLLOCKS. If you treat a woman right 95% of the time she will NEVER wander. God damn do I hate this line of thinking among men (and women!). A person is not defined by one things that they have done.

BOLLOCKS.

Yup.

Girl I mentioned earlier? Guy wasn't treating her right, I pointed it out to her; she ditched him for me.

8 months later, I wasn't treating her right, and a while after that, she ditched me. I totally deserved it.

If you're worried a girl's gonna leave you because she left some guy for you, it sounds like you're planning to be someone she should leave in the first place anyway. At least make it the relationship's good of six months. That's the usual length of time before people start getting on each other's nerves.

Oct 12, 2011#273

sixpackshaker

Norris, attraction is not about the heft of your wallet. It is about when she looks into your eyes and smells your scent, does she want to fuck. You may be her soul mate on paper but smell like her brother... yes it can be that shallow.

Oct 12, 2011#274

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Did she specifically tell you you weren't good enough for her or up to her standards? Or did she just say 'no'? Because if it was just the latter, that's the Mind Reading Cognitive Disorder.

Question Nick: If I were everything she was looking for in a potential partner, knowing that I am more than willing to work around her positively crazy amount of art school work and frakked up sleep schedule (because I already do that socially), would she turn me down? Logically, I mean. Not asking you to read her mind. Asking a pure logic problem. The answer is no. So therefore, because she turned me down, something she is looking for in a partner is not in me.

Oct 12, 2011#275

ThatNickGuy

Not being interested in dating someone is absolutely NOT the same as "not being good enough" or "up to any standards".

You're not telling us the whole story, so I'm assuming you asked her out and she said no. That's it. Overthinking it and overgenerlizing it is just going to tear you apart.

Oct 12, 2011#276

strawman

Norris said:
I am not good enough for her. I do not come up to her standards. There is not enough about me that she likes to warrant a passing grade. What about me is she not attracted to? What is, in her eyes, wrong with me?

She probably doesn't even know! This is what I was saying earlier - attraction is nebulous - even moreso for women. All she knows is that she's not attracted to you in that way and so she's not going to lead you on.

Norris said:
As it is, I can learn NOTHING from this experience. If I find out "well, you did X and that bugged me", I can avoid doing X next time I meet a girl I like. I can't adapt if I don't know what kills me.

You can't approach love like an engineer. Yes, there are some things that you might need to "fix" but the reality is that she isn't going to be able to tell you anything that might be helpful.

Further, the thing that is preventing you from being attractive to her is not necessarily universal - fixing it may actually prevent you from being attractive to another girl.

You have to take the view that it's her, and not you. You also have to balance that with a healthy dose of self-improvement and analysis.

But she can't help you with that. Be the person you want to be - not the person you are, nor the person you think she wants.

Norris said:
She and I have gone out to dinner before, 100% platonically. Ergo, I need to specify "date". And "simple yes or no" means I don't want "yes, but I'm just so busy with school I don't think it's a good idea", or "no, but I'm a weird thing right now", or "you're a really nice guy but...", or "maybe".

"YOUUUUUU SUUUUUUUUUCK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER WITH THAT ATTITUUUUUUUUDE..."singing

She's not a video game. You don't cut off all avenues and then expect her to not feel like a caged animal. Just be glad she's not a shrinking violet - you need girls who are straight shooters. Heaven help you both if you ask someone out who has low self esteem and she decides her happiness is worth less than not hurting your feelings.

Oct 12, 2011#277

Norris

Quotemander Prime said:
8 months later, I wasn't treating her right, and a while after that, she ditched me. I totally deserved it.

I'm not talking about people who have been dating in "months". I'm talking about people who have been dating in "years". Two, three, four years. If you can get a girl to ditch a relationship with a guy she practically lives with when not at school, you're probably not going to be the love of her life. You're probably going to be the rebound.

And yes, they all might break up two years from now. But right this second, they are planning to spend the rest of their lives together. Some will succeed. Some will fail. Doesn't make Mrs. M any less 21 yrs old and married.

Oct 12, 2011#278

Chad Sexington

Norris said:
If you went to the same restaurant (Chez Female), ordered six completely different meals, and got food poisoning all but once, it would be relatively reasonable to quit going to that restaurant, maybe just stick to home cooking for a while if the competition don't excite ya.

Yes, if the same restaurant poisoned me 6 times, it might be time to change restaurants, not swear off food. Because that would be crazy.

If the same woman shot you down 6 times, it might be time to start asking someone else, not quit women entirely. Because that would be crazy.

Oct 12, 2011#279

Shegokigo

Norris said:
Question Nick: If I were everything she was looking for in a potential partner, knowing that I am more than willing to work around her positively crazy amount of art school work and frakked up sleep schedule (because I already do that socially), would she turn me down? Logically, I mean. Not asking you to read her mind. Asking a pure logic problem. The answer is no. So therefore, because she turned me down, something she is looking for in a partner is not in me.

The fact that you think logic has ANYTHING to do with a woman's mind is just hilarious. If a girl had no interest in a guy for a singular reason he could be ripped like Adonis with more money than Bill Gates and she wouldn't have a single feeling for him.

Oct 12, 2011#280

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Not being interested in dating someone is absolutely NOT the same as "not being good enough" or "up to any standards".

You're not telling us the whole story, so I'm assuming you asked her out and she said no. That's it. Overthinking it and overgenerlizing it is just going to tear you apart.

It doesn't get much more "full story" than direct quotes.

"Simple yes or no, would you like to go out to dinner with me sometime, like as a date."
"I'm going to say no thank you".

I was in her apartment. She was putting dishes away. Not much more to say.

Oct 12, 2011#281

ThatNickGuy

Right, then I have two things to say to that:

1) Your approach was far too passive aggressive. Several of us made the suggestion to ask her out in a more casual way, like "Hey, wanna go see a movie with me on Friday?" because that's what works. Your approach shows no confidence. Trust me, that's speaking as someone who has no confidence.

2) She said 'no thank you'. That's it. She's not interested in you 'in that way'. Y'move on and ask someone else out.

Oct 12, 2011#282

strawman

Norris said:
you're probably not going to be the love of her life.

Not that I'm one to encourage you to break other people up, but she won't know if you're the love of her life unless she gets to know you. If he was the love of her life they'd be married - by definition.

Again - you can't break down love into a list of things you have in common, or things that are opposite but complement each other nicely, or things you like or dislike about the other person. You can't objectively measure love.

You are really, really, really hung up on the idea that there is some perfection you can attain that would instantly adhere her to you. It doesn't work that way. You can't expect that to happen.

You have to find the girl that fits you as you are now. She may already be in a minor relationship - and she may merely be holding onto a guy until she finds something better (sorry, it's how many women play that game - it sucks, but it's life). Don't let that get in your way.

Oct 12, 2011#283

ThatNickGuy

Also, last thing I'm saying in this thread:

We're returning once again to why this thread turned into 9 pages in the first place: most of us are trying to give you honest, helpful advice and you're shooting us down left right and centre with every excuse or (il)logical conclusion possible. I'm telling you again: GET. HELP. Counselling, meditation, reading Feeling Good, shaving your head and travelling to a Tibetan temple for a year. ANYTHING.

The past nine pages have been filled with delusional, self-destructive thinking that is honestly not going to get change without some effort on your part. This sort of effort involves seeking help in one way or another.

Basically, you'll be unable to love another until you're ready to love yourself.

Oct 12, 2011#284

strawman

Maybe if you used plastic surgery to look more like Superman.

Oct 12, 2011#285

Shegokigo

ThatNickGuy said:
Basically, you'll be unable to love another until you're ready to love yourself.

Posted by me, by page 2. Shot down completely already like 8x.

Oct 12, 2011#286

LittleSin

I read the Feeling Good book Nicks is talking about. It did wonders for me. I still needed therapy but it got me started and helped to change my way of thinking enough to to get help.

Oct 12, 2011#287

Chad Sexington

I just want to speak about your uncle who 'seems happy'. Maybe he is! Some people are lifelong bachelors and not out of some celibate obligation, they're just happy that way.

But you clearly want to be in a relationship, so you clearly will be leaving a void in your life if you give up on trying because of fear of rejection. For your own sake, since you like to focus on the negative so much: focus on the fear of no relationship rather than the fear of rejection. Let one negative trump the other, which in some mathematical trick becomes positive? I don't know. Multiplication! That's when two negatives become-- Nevermind. The point is, this is something of obvious import to you, so don't hurt yourself by giving up out of fear or frustration or pain or sadness.

Oct 12, 2011#288

Norris

LittleSin said:
I read the Feeling Good book Nicks is talking about. It did wonders for me. I still needed therapy but it got me started and helped to change my way of thinking enough to to get help.

Look...I respect that you guys think this book will help me. But I have people tell me that The Bible will help, that A Purpose Driven Life will make me happy, that I just need to learn The Secret or listen to Deepak Chopra, adopt the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People, in that order (I went to church in middle school). I'm happy that the book helped you out. I'm just super duper incredibly skeptical of any kind of advice of this nature.

Chad Sexington said:
But you clearly want to be in a relationship, so you clearly will be leaving a void in your life if you give up on trying because of fear of rejection.

I can adapt. I can learn. I had to learn that a relationship was awesome, I can learn to be the quirky single guy who is the foremost collector of something kitschy. Lots of cats. People think he's gay (already had that happen).

ThatNickGuy said:
1) Your approach was far too passive aggressive. Several of us made the suggestion to ask her out in a more casual way, like "Hey, wanna go see a movie with me on Friday?" because that's what works. Your approach shows no confidence. Trust me, that's speaking as someone who has no confidence.

I ask her out like that and she is going to assume it is a "just friends" deal. There is nothing worse than two people going into the same get together with wildly different expectations. If I think "date" and she thinks "friendly movie", it is going to be super awkward when that comes out.

Shegokigo said:
Posted by me, by page 2. Shot down completely already like 8x.

I LIKE MYSELF! I like being a huge comic book fan. I like being a trekkie. I like being the kind of dude who would pick-up the girl, bring her flowers, open the door for her, pay the whole check, and expect maybe a good night peck if things went well. I just want to find a way to make that guy more attractive to the kind of woman I am attracted to.
Added at: 02:37

mr_thehun said:
I have a feeling you don't drink. So here's my advice, go get drunk and kick your brains ass and relax.

If you're drinking to deal with the things that make you sad, you're drinking wrong. I have family members who do that. We call them "Binge Drinkers".
Added at: 02:40

Adammon said:
I say just take the Iaculus method and date girls too young to know better. Oh wait, no, the ones that are 'mature for their age'.

True story: Mrs. M's sister offered to introduce me to one of her girlfriends. Who is 17. And in high school. Even I knew right off the bat that was a horrible idea.

Oct 12, 2011#289

ThatNickGuy

Which is why you continue to see each other, even as "just friends" and build that chemistry! That's the whole beauty of dating. It's not just "go on one date, jump immediately into a relationship." The whole idea of dating is to feel out (mentally and sometimes physically) whether you'd be compatible in that way. Just the fact that you'd be going out, just the two of you and not with a bunch of friends, immediately changes the dynamic.

Also, bringing flowers on a first date? I used to do that. And it's trying too hard. That's again speaking from experience.

As for Feeling Good? It has nothing in common with the spirtual stuff you listed. It's all about cognitive therapy, about changing your mind to a more positive outlook. As I said numerous times already, just being aware of Cognitive Distortions can do a world of good.

Oct 12, 2011#290

LittleSin

Nick...Nick....*hugs* You are trying so hard. I love ya, but he doesn't want it.

Oct 12, 2011#291

ThatNickGuy

I know.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

I can't help but see myself from ten years ago in just about all of his posts. Seriously, I'm talking almost verbatim sometimes.

Oct 12, 2011#292

LittleSin

ThatNickGuy said:
I know. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I can't help but see myself from ten years ago in just about all of his posts. Seriously, I'm talking almost verbatim sometimes.

I know. I hope you aren't beating yourself over it.

Oct 12, 2011#293

Dei

I am just posting here to say that I am going to have nightmares about Nick's avatar running up to me and stabbing out my eyes.

Oct 12, 2011#294

ThatNickGuy

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's NICKY!

Oct 12, 2011#295

sixpackshaker

ThatNickGuy said:
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's NICKY!

sigh... sounds like your prom night.

Oct 12, 2011#296

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
Which is why you continue to see each other, even as "just friends" and build that chemistry! That's the whole beauty of dating. It's not just "go on one date, jump immediately into a relationship." The whole idea of dating is to feel out (mentally and sometimes physically) whether you'd be compatible in that way. Just the fact that you'd be going out, just the two of you and not with a bunch of friends, immediately changes the dynamic.

Well I kinda ruined the ever loving shit out that now so it is kind of moot. Besides, I have gone out to dinner with Mrs. M for dinner, to movies, just chilling out, etc. all the time. Even before she was married. And none of that made our relationship less platonic. In part (small part, the issue was settled when she turned me down for a date in eighth grade) because I am just plain not physically attractive enough for her tastes. I assume the same with Mads. Six years from now, maybe I will ask about it to be sure. In joke, not serious suggestion that.

Also, bringing flowers on a first date? I used to do that. And it's trying too hard. That's again speaking from experience

.That is absolutely a good point. I wasn't actually going to be able to do it because I don't have money.

ThatNickGuy said:
As for Feeling Good? It has nothing in common with the spirtual stuff you listed. It's all about cognitive therapy, about changing your mind to a more positive outlook. As I said numerous times already, just being aware of Cognitive Distortions can do a world of good.

Look, I respect that the book helped you. Deepak Chopra's teachings about Quantum Physics have helped people I know. I read ten pages of his stuff at a library before realizing it had no basis in science. once bitten, twice shy. Besides that, I don't think I need that. What you keep calling "mind reading", I view as applying the principles of deductive reasoning and the scientific method to day to day life.

Oct 12, 2011#297

Ravenpoe

Oh hey, this thread again!

Let's all go in circles. I'll get the popcorn.

*I'm too hip to actually use the popcorn smiley*

Oct 12, 2011#298

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
I'm just super duper incredibly skeptical of any kind of advice of this nature..

You can't get help because you're skeptical of help.

Sheeeeeet, you need help.

Oct 12, 2011#299

Norris

Quotemander Prime said:
You can't get help because you're skeptical of help.

Sheeeeeet, you need help.

Neither Deepak Chopra nor The Secret are "help".

Oct 12, 2011#300

sixpackshaker

The Nicky he's referring to is in his pants...

Oct 12, 2011#301

ThatNickGuy

Norris said:
Besides that, I don't think I need that. What you keep calling "mind reading", I view as applying the principles of deductive reasoning and the scientific method to day to day life.

NO, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is nothing scientific or deductive about this manner of thinking. You do not know what someone else is thinking at any time. You can only assume. You're taking your own self-esteem problems and putting a negative spin on it because that's safer than out and out confronting the person.

"Mind Reading is a distortion particularly associated with anxiety in social situations. Mind Reading is when an individual thinks that they know, or are wondering what another person is thinking about them. In a given situation, usually an ambiguous one, a person jumps to the conclusion that something derogatory is being thought of them."

Oct 12, 2011#302

Norris

mr_thehun said:
you need help.

Let me put it this way - yesterday, I came home from asking her out and felt even worse than I do now. I took walk, listened to three particular songs, felt normal again. I admit, I have been spirally in my thinking the last few hours. The infrequency with which I meet interesting single women and my inability to actually get them on a date when I do is something that causes me a lot of sadness. But not enjoying being lonely is, from what I understand, normal. The majority of people feel down in the dumps after a rejection! I'ma go on a walk now, listen to my motivational jams (Baby I'm A Star by Prince, Walk by The Foo Fighters, and #Trendin by The Original 7ven [formerly The Time]) and I'll go to bed happy. This time next week I will be looking forward to the art school's halloween party because HOLY SHIT there are nerdy girls there and you can find them just by looking. There was a chick dressed as the Nostalgia Critic there last year! I have no idea how to actually hit it off with a girl on a first meeting to get a number, but hey! Gotta put yourself out there.

Oct 12, 2011#303

Shegokigo

Norris said:
I have no idea how to actually hit it off with a girl on a first meeting to get a number, but hey! Gotta put yourself out there.

Wait... is that... no... it can't be....

A shining light in this thread of misery?! YES! IT IS! We have contact folks, we have contact!

*crowd goes wild*

Go Norris Go! *the chanting was heard round the world*

Oct 12, 2011#304

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
NO, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is nothing scientific or deductive about this manner of thinking. You do not know what someone else is thinking at any time. You can only assume. You're taking your own self-esteem problems and putting a negative spin on it because that's safer than out and out confronting the person.

"Mind Reading is a distortion particularly associated with anxiety in social situations. Mind Reading is when an individual thinks that they know, or are wondering what another person is thinking about them. In a given situation, usually an ambiguous one, a person jumps to the conclusion that something derogatory is being thought of them."

Let's dissect this case, where you accused me of "mind reading" in saying I didn't meet Mads' standards for dating. I have hung out with her a lot in the last month and a half. We have achieved a relatively deep level of...whatever the communications theory science term for sharing intimate details of our lives is, it escapes me now. We have similar interests. We got along swimingly. I asked her out. She said no. There is something that she is looking for in a potential relationship (a "standard") that I don't posses (or meet). When someone meets what you are looking for, you are attracted to them romantically (not always, but in general). I am not reading her mind. I am not assuming it must be a negative (it could be something as simple as she wants dudes taller than her). But I do not meet her standards, whatever they are.

Oct 12, 2011#305

ThatNickGuy

Rationalizing, rationalizing, rationalizing.

I give up.

Oct 12, 2011#306

Norris

Shegokigo said:
Wait... is that... no... it can't be....

A shining light in this thread of misery?! YES! IT IS! We have contact folks, we have contact!

*crowd goes wild*

Go Norris Go! *the chanting was heard round the world*

OK, I may have expressed the idea that maybe I am destined to be like my uncle, but I should have specified that he did have girlfriends when he was younger and even in my lifetime (last one was when I was maybe three). So I will keep trying. I'm not horribly optimistic (I was, once, but not since number three), but I will try. Wondering what could have been is just as big a bitch as being shot down.

ThatNickGuy said:
Rationalizing, rationalizing, rationalizing.

I give up.

FUCKING EXPLAIN TO ME WHERE THE FLAW IN MY THINKING IS. I gave you my rationale. You say my rationale is incorrect. Tell me why! Let me put it this way - I know this girl, we shall call her T. T and I get along fine. We're friendly. We talk, alone, somewhat frequently. Make each other laugh. But she is self-admittedly pretty over weight, is all tatted up, and likes to get her drink on. All of those are MASSIVE turn offs for me. If she asked me out, I would say "No thank you" because she doesn't meet standards I have set. I asked my friend Mrs. M out in eighth grade. She turned me down because she has a certain standard to physical beauty she wants in a man. I did not meet it, she turned me down. But I am science minded. Show me where I am drawing a conclusion not backed by evidence. PLEASE. Show, don't tell.

mr_thehun said:
from what I've read, you need help. These sound like the types of problems that without help will only get worse with time.

I get sad sometimes because I'm lonely since my girlfriend dumped me. I have been burned several times in asking girls out so I am a tad overcautious. This isn't out of the freakin' ordinary. It is out of the ordinary that I am open and talk about it, but shit man. Find me a guy who doesn't fear rejection from a girl he really likes. Find me someone who is sunshine and lollipops after being dumped. Find me someone who doesn't have any sort of complex about their looks after being picked on for their looks or with some social phobias after being the school verbal punching bag for a few years. You just have to deal, and not let it stop you.

Now if you'll excuse me, some drama with my apartment's smoke detector has kept me from heading out for a walk.

Seriously, you are not a normal functional human being.

Awww, I bet you say that to all the girls.

Oct 12, 2011#307

SpecialKO

Norris said:
FUCKING EXPLAIN TO ME WHERE THE FLAW IN MY THINKING IS.

....I would seriously suggest that you re-read this thread.

In fact, print it out, and circle with red pen every place where someone challenged your thinking or told you why you were wrong in detail. Maybe you need a different physical perspective.

Oct 12, 2011#308

Dei

I seriously suggest Norris, that if you want people to stop replying with advice you don't want, then just walk away from the thread and don't look back. It's the internet. People will eat anything that you throw at them, so just stop throwing.

Oct 12, 2011#309

Norris

mr_thehun said:
seriously man, go seek professional help.

That is telling, not showing. The fact that I am not attracted to T doesn't make me hate her, it means I don't want to date her. I'm saying that this is what happened with Mads. Why. Is. That. Incorrect?

SpecialKO said:
....I would seriously suggest that you re-read this thread.

I have seen a lot people telling me "that's mind reading" or "reading too much into things". Then I explain more. Then they say I am rationalizing.

Look, I just wish I knew what Madelyn's rationale for turning me down was. Is it something I can surmount? Is it just that I'm not her type? Gut reaction? I'd like to know. Maybe it something that I can work on, either to try with her again later (highly unlikely) or to improve myself for the future.

Oct 12, 2011#310

ThatNickGuy

Once more because I'm a glutton for punishment, apparently.

I said "rationalizing, rationalizing, rationalizing". You read that as "your rationale is incorrect," which is completely false, putting words in my mouth. AGAIN.

From that alone? Using cogntive distortions?

-Overgeneralization
-Jumping to conclusions
-Magnification
-Mental filter

The fact that you're reading too much into things, overgeneralizing, jumping to conclusions, etc, all say that you are an incredibly negative, unhealthy thinker.

Just because Mrs. M or T or Mr. T or whoever it is that turns you down for whatever reason does not make you a bad person. It just means they're not interested in you in a romantic way. That is not a bad thing. It's just a fact. You're beating yourself over it instead of just accepting it.

I'm saying all this because I FUCKING WENT THROUGH THE SAME WAY OF THINKING FOR DECADES. I'm telling you this from experience. Did you not see the part I said to LittleSin how I see far too much of myself in almost everything you've said? The vast majority of the stuff you've said is almost exactly, word for fucking word, what I said ten and twenty years ago.

I'm not 100% better (see the whining thread), but I'm sure as hell better than I used to be. Why?

I got help.

For the love of God, I'm begging you, do the same.

Oct 12, 2011#311

Norris

mr_thehun said:
And this is not a creative writing exercise. Go get professional help, you need it.

Because some dude I've never met read me talking about my insecurities vis-a-vis dating and relationships and decided I did. While the people who know me the best, who are closer to the situation than you, are saying "therapy could help you get there faster, but you're doing fine". If I had started a thread at my lowest point after being dumped, i think you guys woulda put me on suicide watch. I have come a long way, with just a little help from my friends, since then. People I met at my lowest point feel as though their assessment of me as a person was 90% wrong when they met me. Because I was down. Now I'm up. Happy, fun to be around. You guys, while I respect you are trying to help, have one small piece of the picture. So I'm not going to spend money I may not have on your say so.
Added at: 04:05

ThatNickGuy said:
I said "rationalizing, rationalizing, rationalizing". You read that as "your rationale is incorrect," which is completely false, putting words in my mouth. AGAIN.

Well I apologize. The rationale lead me to the conclusion you are saying is a distortion. I did assume that meant my line of reasoning was wrong. I am sorry.

Just because Mrs. M or T or Mr. T or whoever it is that turns you down for whatever reason does not make you a bad person. It just means they're not interested in you in a romantic way. That is not a bad thing. It's just a fact. You're beating yourself over it instead of just accepting it.

I really really really like this girl. I would give my left nut just to get one shot at impressing her on a date. I wish I knew why she wasn't attracted to me as more than a friend. I also wish that maybe I had built the relationship up more before formally asking her out. I can't help but wonder if the place where we fail to meet is something that I can easily do differently (IE, avoid talking about X, Y, or Z) or would already plan to do differently (IE, drive her around as opposed to the opposite). I'm not a bad person for it. I fucking know that already.

I'm saying all this because I FUCKING WENT THROUGH THE SAME WAY OF THINKING FOR DECADES. I'm telling you this from experience. Did you not see the part I said to LittleSin how I see far too much of myself in almost everything you've said? The vast majority of the stuff you've said is almost exactly, word for fucking word, what I said ten and twenty years ago.

And I am telling you, I was worse. Much, much worse. But I have been getting demonstrably better, week by week and month by month, for the last year. I'm here talking about the side of my life I am still super insecure about. It is not the only facet. I promise you.

And think back - when you were my age, would you have listened to total strangers on the internet? Honestly. If the answer is yes, then I will stand corrected.

Oct 12, 2011#312

Norris

mr_thehun said:
and if you think you have no problems because you go up and down, then you know nothing about mental health. However, whatever you do, do not read the DSM IV. That book made me crazy for three months.

Life has ups and downs. People have bad moods. People get sad. Some more than others. I'm not saying I have no problems, I am saying my problems aren't much more than stinkin' thinkin' habits formed based on how people treated me when I was kid. Habits that can be broken. That I am working on breaking.

Oct 12, 2011#313

ThatNickGuy

Which is why we keep telling you to get help. Because professionals can help you through breaking those habits.

And honestly, if someone ten or fifteen years ago told me they knew exactly what I was feeling and told me ways to help fix it? Yeah, I would have listened. In fact, I did. My sister. Ten or especially fifteen years ago, the internet wasn't as widely used as it is today. The only advice I heard from people on IRC were fellow internet shut-ins with their own problems.

Oct 12, 2011#314

SpecialKO

Norris said:
Life has ups and downs.

And yet, you seem determined to not see the upside to this. You managed to man up (sort of) and asked her out. You will never, ever wonder whether you missed something, or walked away from a chance to explore.

You say your friends are telling you that you're not doing bad and you're a decent guy in general, and that's why you're not listening to our opinions. Fine. So why are you not listening to their opinions, and insist on working yourself into a tizzy trying to figure out what's so wrong with you that Galatea won't go out with you?

Oct 12, 2011#315

Hailey Knight

Norris said:
And I am telling you, I was worse. Much, much worse.

Are you seriously pulling "More depressed than thou"?

Why are you guys trying so hard? Sure, most of us have been in his place, but haven't you listened to him? He's not going to become us. He's going to be his uncle. You guys, just go have kids or proteges to become you. Steinman, turn all six yours into you. Norris will not be your seventh son, sir.

Oct 12, 2011#316

Tress

My god, this thread is hilarious. Well, pretty sad too, but hilarious. I know everyone is trying to help, but it's a complete lost cause. Just stop. You're just feeding the beast at this point.

Oct 13, 2011#317

Biannoshufu

I'm not trying to help. I'm just watching because my god it's a Davinci of a car wrecked thread.

Norris has made up his mind. He's chosen the path he wants, the outcomes he expects, and ultimately, the life he wants to live. It's a free country.

Oct 13, 2011#318

Chad Sexington

There's not flaw in your rationale, except that it's your rationale: the flaw in your thinking is thinking that she thinks like you.

Your "parameter -> result" scenario is how you approach it, but not how all of us do. On an extraordinarily general level, I might agree that we all have parameters that must be met to get a result, but I mean we're talking super ridiculously vaguely general to the point of uselessness.

You might have your list of criteria for turn offs, dealbreaking no-daters; this does not mean she does. If she does, her parameters might not address turn-offs, turn-ons and they might not even be things she's consciously thought about. This, I think, is the crux of Nick's 'mind-reading' criticism. You just don't know how or what people think, and it's a huge error to think you can figure it out. It causes problems because you start to see their actions with your rationale. Insight into someone's character is immensely difficult, we're talking decades of close friendship.

Sometimes your A paper gets a B because your prof's an asshole, and not because your paper sucked. Sometimes you get rejected because the girl just wasn't into it, and you may never know why, and there may not even be a real 'why'. But you just write an excellent paper for your next decent prof, and you just ask out the next girl.

So the short version is no, there needn't be a what that she decided qualified to not go on a date with you.

Oct 13, 2011#319

Biannoshufu

Ravenpoe said:
Oh hey, this thread again!

Let's all go in circles. I'll get the popcorn.

*I'm too hip to actually use the popcorn smiley*

Oct 13, 2011#320

SpecialKO

Amorous Eyes said:
*Disclaimer: Term only used for effect. I do not condone its usage.

Oct 13, 2011#321

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
And honestly, if someone ten or fifteen years ago told me they knew exactly what I was feeling and told me ways to help fix it? Yeah, I would have listened. In fact, I did. My sister.

Emphasis mine. Someone who knew you, in fleshy real life, as a complete and whole person, told you to get help. If my sister sat me down and said "Chris, I really think you need help", I would get it. If Mrs. M sat me down and said that, I would get help. If my dad sat me down and said it, I would get help. Total strangers on the internet? Somewhat less compelling.

mr_thehun said:
well hey, even though you're still defensively stating you don't need help working on your problems because you're working on your problems, at least you are now able to admit to having a problem that can be overcome.

I don't think I've ever tried to give the impression I thought I was perfect. I have flaws. I have patterns I need to break. And I've broken a lot of them in the past year, without the help of a therapist.

SpecialKO said:
And yet, you seem determined to not see the upside to this. You managed to man up (sort of) and asked her out. You will never, ever wonder whether you missed something, or walked away from a chance to explore.

And got shot down without knowing exactly why. I learn nothing. My confidence is rewarded with goose egg. The most I can gather from this experience is that not every rejection is Andrea, and you do get to keep friendships after being shot down. Which is a reinforcement of something I already knew.

You say your friends are telling you that you're not doing bad and you're a decent guy in general, and that's why you're not listening to our opinions. Fine. So why are you not listening to their opinions, and insist on working yourself into a tizzy trying to figure out what's so wrong with you that Galatea won't go out with you?

Not Galatea. She's not someone I have built up into the perfect mate. She's a friend who I really really like who seemed to be giving me signals. She'd probably term a "great guy", much like my ex and almost all my other paltonic female friends do. I just want to know where the fatal disconnect between "good guy" and "undateable" is.

Quotemander Prime said:
Are you seriously pulling "More depressed than thou"?

No. I'm saying a year ago I couldn't: look at myself in the mirror, talk to new people without being forced, understand that my friends actually enjoy spending time with me, or think about dating without turning into a jibbering mess. Today, I can do all of those things and do them well. So I'm less depressed than I was 365 days ago, without any professional help.

Chad Sexington said:
There's not flaw in your rationale, except that it's your rationale: the flaw in your thinking is thinking that she thinks like you
....

So the short version is no, there needn't be a what that she decided qualified to not go on a date with you.

That sir, is an excellent point. While there doesn't need to be a reason it could be as simple as she doesn't want to try to fit dating into 13 hour school days, a fucked up sleep schedule (I've come over at 3 in the afternoon before and she was still asleep), and mountains of homework.

Amorous Eyes said:
This. So much this. It takes only an instant for me to figure this out when I meet or talk to someone that is interested in me. No confidence = no interest. A friend at most IF they have some similar interests or something. Which you apparently have with Mads.

I would like to think that the tremendous gains I've made in self esteem (to the point where she told me that her assessment of me as a person when we met was all wrong...which it wasn't, at the time) account for something. Still, you have a point. I was kind of super nervous when I asked her out, and that very well may have been a problem.

Also, talking to a cute girl who reads comics would require me to find one who isn't my sister.

Oct 13, 2011#322

BananaHands

Norris said:
Also, talking to a cute girl who reads comics would require me to find one who isn't my sister.

Excuse me sir, I would like to court your sister.

Oct 13, 2011#323

Chibibar

Norris: you ask why are you not good enough to date but good enough to be a friend?
Well, I have to back Shego up on this one. It is confidence. It is all how you present yourself and your view to the world. Heck, It is about presentation.

I am not going to lie to you, but generally MOST people would judge a book by its cover and run with it. How did you present yourself the first time you met them? From the posting here, I can honestly say that you do lack the self confidence (I could be wrong) but that is what I'm getting and I haven't even met you in person.

The problem is that people are not mind readers (well I'm not and I am guessing you are not) so each person usually formulate what they see from information given. some people will give much larger leeway and some don't. Remember the old saying "First impression is everything" That is still hold true.

Now the 2nd part is hard. The "friend zone" majority of the time once you are in this zone, you are stuck. There is VERY rare occasion that you or anyone has a chance to get OUT of the friend zone and into the Date zone, but that is far few and in-between (in my experience) Women have these little radars that can detect if you want to get in her pants, her lover, or just be friends once they lock in to a certain mode, you are stuck (with some exceptions) I will use -> as possible upgrade/downgrade paths note: this is what I have observe.

Friend zone : you are stuck
Friends with intention -> Sex -> FWB -> Lovers -> partners -> friends

Now, I can honestly say that I was shy long time ago. I have many friends that are girls, but most consider me to be "big brother" or "little brother" (basically Friend zone) until I got more confidence in asking them out or show interest in them initially. That made a BIG difference in college. It was not an easy transition. I know you mention that you don't want to lose yourself or your identity, but I don't consider "changing your approach" to do that. Think of it as what you want on the inside (your needs) and show it on the outside (your confidence) you are still you, you are just showing it to the world and the women out there can take it or leave it

Oct 13, 2011#324

Jay

So... noticed 4 new pages in this thread. This is my advice :

This is just a lost cause.

and THIS THREAD JUST WON'T DIE.

Oct 13, 2011#325

strawman

Added at: 11:06

Oct 13, 2011#326

BananaHands

Oct 13, 2011#327

strawman

Oct 13, 2011#328

Chibibar

There is a lot of good info on this thread for anyone who want to turn around and want to date more (i.e. first impression, people's impression, people's outlook and such) we shouldn't bury it

Oct 13, 2011#329

strawman

Chibibar said:
we shouldn't bury it

Added at: 11:48
This thread is only effective for those who have gotten past hats with logos:

Oct 13, 2011#330

Shakey

I say after all this, it's time to dance.

Damn I want that as my avatar again.

Oct 13, 2011#331

Chibibar

I like an Indy's hat so is that Self Actualization?

Oct 13, 2011#332

strawman

Oct 13, 2011#333

GasBandit

and according to Haddaway:

Baby don't hurt me, no more.

Oct 13, 2011#334

strawman

GasBandit said:
and according to Haddaway:

Baby don't hurt me, no more.

Oct 13, 2011#335

Shegokigo

This thread is going places. Fo sho.

Oct 13, 2011#336

Jay

Oct 13, 2011#337

strawman

Oct 13, 2011#338

Jay

What I felt about this thread since Page 3.

Oct 13, 2011#339

Hailey Knight

Chibibar said:
I know you mention that you don't want to lose yourself or your identity,

But I want him to.

I want him to deviate from his most cherished friends. I want him to ignore his way of thinking. I want him to break every law he's sworn to uphold.

Oct 13, 2011#340

Charlie Don't Surf

Chibi stop spouting the friend zone ladder theory bullshit, plz.

Oct 13, 2011#341

GasBandit

Quotemander Prime said:
But I want him to.

I want him to deviate from his most cherished friends. I want him to ignore his way of thinking. I want him to break every law he's sworn to uphold.

Exactly. Because who his identity is, is forever doomed to solitude.

EVERYBODY, of all walks and stripes of life, needs to get it through their head - WHO YOU ARE, WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE, IS NOT IMPORTANT. If you refuse to change yourself, do not be surprised when your circumstances also refuse to change. It is a rare, rare (and usually stinking rich) person who gets to choose who he is and then force the world to accept it. The rest of us have to change who we are in order to change our situation.

This is what Buddhists mean when they say "Change comes from within."

And that's why this thread is now a herpaderp brothers circus - because its original purpose is revealed to be futile.

Oct 13, 2011#342

Chibibar

Quotemander Prime said:
But I want him to.

I want him to deviate from his most cherished friends. I want him to ignore his way of thinking. I want him to break every law he's sworn to uphold.

LOL.

I will agree with that

I will still stick with my CoI (Circle of Influence) you (Norris) must expand on this IF you want to find a girl who want to date you and not just be your friend.
Here is why (IMO)
Your current CoI is limiting mainly if all the female you encounter are your current friends and friend of their, more than likely, they might paint you as a "nice guy to be friend with" of course statistically speaking there is a slight chance there might be that one renegade that will date you (it can happen) but that chance drop when neither one of you makes the move. So, the only way to increase your chance to find a "datable" mate even to accepts all your personality, flaws, and misgivings. You would have to go out of your comfort zone.

This is why the old saying "Travel does broaden your horizon" it is true. Of course I am not saying to uproot and leave your home, but at least expand your activities and maybe hang out with people you DON'T know. Start with a concert, museum, anime conventions, or whatever suit your fancy.

I met some life long friends (going 20+ years) from anime convention. sure 90% of them are REALLY weird even by MY standards, but I made friends and keep in contact today

Added at: 16:54

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Chibi stop spouting the friend zone ladder theory bullshit, plz.

Heh. It is only BS when a person break out of their shell and be pro-active. This is pretty much Norris is stuck in IMO. He break out of his current shell and wonder why he can't find datable women and women he did meet just want to be his friends.

Edit: The friend ladder is common to people who "accepts" it. If a person is truly wanting to break it, they can, but at this point we are talking about Norris' situation. Now, I have encounter many people like him (heck at one point I was like that) There are girls now that I was friend with in the past would date me now (I have change in the last 20 years) but being married kinda hinders that

(also could be the forbidden fruit theory) If a person willing to change oneself for the better, then situation will change. I think if Norris continue this path (unchanging) then he is stuck in friend mode with people he is with now.

Now of course there are rare chance maybe tomorrow or 5 years down the line one of the girl may have a chance of heart and date him. Hooray! so he can either wait and continue to be friends, or find someone else.

Oct 13, 2011#343

BananaHands

Oct 13, 2011#344

Hailey Knight

Chibibar said:
Now of course there are rare chance maybe tomorrow or 5 years down the line one of the girl may have a chance of heart and date him. Hooray! so he can either wait and continue to be friends, or find someone else.

Oct 17, 2011#345

Necronic

Man, I was trying to find this great comic that was about how the whole friendzone concept was actually the dude being an emotionally manipulative prick (like the XKCD one but a bit better), but I couldn't find it anywhere. The good news is, when I searched for "Friendzone comic" I found this, which is way better:

Just think about it for a bit.

Oct 25, 2011#346

Shannow

Well, it was a slower day here at the office, and wow, did this thread just kill an hour of my time. And guys....never change. ever. I love you all. I may not say that enough, I may rag on you all, and hate and whatnot...but holy fucking shit, what an amazngly hilarious read. That was 11 pages of awesome.

And to Norris, this is probably too late. But shit man...whiskey and hookers. With the internet, both are easy to find!

Dec 12, 2011#347